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THE Cuba Thread Pt. 3

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby ennui2 » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 14:30:08

Plantagenet wrote:You didn't read very carefully.


That's because I normally have you on ignore--for good reason.

Plantagenet wrote:By giving Cubans jobs as bank tellers, hotel waiters, McDonald's janitors, musical entertainers, etc., etc. O's opening of Cuba will benefit the average Cuban as well as benefitting US corporate interests.

Win-Win!


Obama the capitalist oppressor! Snark Snark!
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 15:49:15

Plantagenet wrote:
GregT wrote:Sending minion "O" to grovel to Castro in Cuba, is a sure sign that the Empire is in decline.


On the contrary---The empire is about to expand by one country.

Thanks to Obama opening up Cuba, US corporations and banks now have a new market to expand into. :idea:

And surely, IF reforms are allowed by the Cuban government and things actually open up economically, this will have far greater benefits for Cuba than the US. For the US, it's just one more very minor trading partner. For Cuba, it's a more toward capitalism, more jobs, more markets, and more freedoms.

Note that this is NOT a done deal. If Cuba refuses to allow more freedoms, then nothing much happens.

And if the US wants to get involved in the affairs of another country, surely THIS is the way to do it. Make it voluntary. Offer them something to help both them and the US. Should be a no-lose for the US, and improve the US' reputation internationally. (The polar opposite of nation-building in the middle east, as one example of what the US should NOT be doing re foreign affairs).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 16:14:22

Outcast_Searcher wrote:And surely, IF reforms are allowed by the Cuban government and things actually open up economically, this will have far greater benefits for Cuba than the US. For the US, it's just one more very minor trading partner. For Cuba, it's a more toward capitalism, more jobs, more markets, and more freedoms.

Note that this is NOT a done deal. If Cuba refuses to allow more freedoms, then nothing much happens.


Cuba is on the road to capitalism. Obama's visit to Havana is just another step on this road.

Raul Castro has ALREADY created a private sector in Cuba. About 40% of the population is now works in the newly forming private sector in Cuba consisting of mostly tourist related small businesses----restaurants, bars, musicians, cab service, little hotels, guides, etc. etc.

The communist economic regime in Cuba is ending. If Raul and Fidel play their cards right, they and their family members and other members of the communist leadership cadre can seize personal control of prime real estate and parts of the Cuban economy and transform themselves into very wealthy oligarchs through these business deals with Obama and the Us corporations he is representing.

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Over the next couple of years the Cuban Communists and their families will become the new Cuban oligarchs
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby americandream » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 16:31:43

GregT wrote:Coming to Terms With the American Empire

https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/coming- ... can-empire


You people can dream of vicarious glory all you like but capitalism is a leveller of culture, not imperial. History is quite specific about the characteristics of each set of social relations. Anyways I am gonna be too busy developing my capitalist business into a tier 2 player for the next wee while, so you tinfoil capitalists can wallow in vicarious glory cos I gonna be doing be disappearing act for a bit. I am sure Plant will run off into a corner for a quickie.

Buh bye for now, losers.
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 17:56:10

americandream wrote:... run off into a corner for a quickie.


Please keep your sexual fantasies to yourself. :lol:
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 18:17:03

Obama is going to announced that Google will be partnering with the Cuban government to provide broadband and wifi in Cuba.

Google to provide internet in Cuba

No word yet on whether or not the Cuban internet service will be limited and censored like the internet in China. :)
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 21:59:52

The choice is censored or monitored or both.
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 22:17:12

Shaved Monkey wrote:The choice is censored or monitored or both.

Pretty sure it will be censored/monitored. Cubans are conditioned to accept Government control and domination.
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby GregT » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 22:33:15

americandream wrote:
GregT wrote:Coming to Terms With the American Empire

https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/coming- ... can-empire


You people can dream of vicarious glory all you like but capitalism is a leveller of culture, not imperial. History is quite specific about the characteristics of each set of social relations. Anyways I am gonna be too busy developing my capitalist business into a tier 2 player for the next wee while, so you tinfoil capitalists can wallow in vicarious glory cos I gonna be doing be disappearing act for a bit. I am sure Plant will run off into a corner for a quickie.

Buh bye for now, losers.


Hmmm, must have hit a nerve there.

FYI, the author of this piece is an American citizen, with rather impeccable credentials. Especially when concerning geopolitical relations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Friedman
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 22:53:20

You know AD speaks of this ideal Capitalism, this leveler of culture, this force that amalgamates positive values and attitudes. Well, all I see in this world is capitalism being the catalyst for rabid competition, greed, corruption, envy, planetary destruction, inequality and injustice. So maybe, I am missing something. Maybe AD with his impressive vernacular and acumen can enlighten us lesser mortals.
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby ennui2 » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 23:50:37

onlooker wrote:
Shaved Monkey wrote:The choice is censored or monitored or both.

Pretty sure it will be censored/monitored. Cubans are conditioned to accept Government control and domination.


Were East Germans not conditioned the same way? How can you be so sure that Cubans won't demand (and get) more and more freedom?

Not only that, what exactly is in it for TPTB in Cuba in a post-Fidel era to perpetuate the old way of things rather than to take sort of a quasi-China approach of trying to have their cake (power) and eat it too (participate in capital markets)? They can see that there's a path forward. Why not take it?

I mean, I get it. This is a worldsend and doomers are hardwired to pessimism. But not everything that happens on the world stage is bad. It's only your doom-colored glasses that make it look that way.
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 23:59:08

A China approach is opening up to capitalism while maintaining some control in place ala internet control. That is what we are saying after all.
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 22 Mar 2016, 01:44:19

onlooker wrote:A China approach is opening up to capitalism while maintaining some control in place ala internet control. That is what we are saying after all.


No, you made a sweeping generalization that the Cuban people are too brainwashed to want anything other than to be controlled like sheep.
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Tue 22 Mar 2016, 01:47:14

onlooker wrote:
Shaved Monkey wrote:The choice is censored or monitored or both.

Pretty sure it will be censored/monitored. Cubans are conditioned to accept Government control and domination.

So are we
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 22 Mar 2016, 11:36:29

NPR just did a live broadcast of Obama's speech in Havana. I think it was his best speech since the 2008 campaign. He rejected devision betweens Cubans and Americans and he invited the Cuban people to become allies of the US in the globalized world. He even ended the speech with his 2008 campaign slogan Si Si Puede (Yes we can!).

Where has that unifying Obama been since 2008? Here in the US all we've gotten from Obama since 2008 are divisive partisan attacks ---- but in Cuban he brought out the 2008 "Hope and Change" magic one last time for once last speech about unity----this time between the USA and Cuba-----and it still sounds great!

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Obama just gave a wonderful 2008-style "Hope and Change" speech in Havana calling for Cuba to become a partner and ally of the US in this globalized world---and it sounded GREAT!
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby efarmer » Tue 22 Mar 2016, 13:15:15

Obama is by and large a centrist, and yes the shortcomings outlined by Plant and others are real and he is a flawed human being like the rest of us with the guts to admit it. The one characteristic that Obama has that I resonate with is his ability to entertain real and dynamic opposition in the process of compromise and collaboration. Conservatives had the opportunity to actually do a show of force and display of the power of conservative principle as a real force of forward motion in government and opportunity for the American people. Instead I have witnessed the best and brightest of the Conservatives sit on their hands and be gagged while the old guard played obsfuscation and obstruction as a kicker on top of their 8 years of continuing resolutions to avoid owning their own failed leadership policies. Their followers in some part have taken settling for almost nothing but division and spin to heart to where they seem prepared to settle for a real estate developer confidence man who cartoons the message that works without the underlying understanding to yield Conservative progress which is a good resource and one that has a place in evolving our democracy. Complaints about Obama should be met with a better candidate and president instead of a list of the last guy's shortcomings and a promise of "winning again", whatever in the hell that is supposed to mean.
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 22 Mar 2016, 15:16:39

"it ranks just above Haiti"

Cuba ranks better than the US in literacy and infant mortality, two of the most fundamental measures of human well being.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 1rank.html

(But maybe Plant doesn't trust all those commies in the CIA!!? :lol: :lol: )
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 22 Mar 2016, 15:40:02

dohboi wrote:
Cuba ranks better than the US in literacy and infant mortality, two of the most fundamental measures of human well being.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 1rank.html)


Yes, Cuba does well on combating illiteracy and infant mortality. But GDP and personal incomes are very very low in Cuba.

The average wage for someone in the state sector in Cuba like a teacher or a doctor is about $14 a MONTH which comes to annual income of about $168. Thats pretty low pay by any measure---compreare to the typical US minimum wage of $10 or even $15 per HOUR.

dohboi wrote: maybe Plant doesn't trust all those commies in the CIA!!?


I certainly don't trust your nutty claim that the CIA is filled with commies! Perhaps you are confusing Cuba and the CIA? They do both begin with "C"…... :lol: :lol:

Cheers!
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Tue 22 Mar 2016, 18:00:00

Cuba was the only sustainable developed country maybe they will become the default collapse level we should all aspire to.

http://khlo.co.uk/index.php/cuba-the-on ... -the-world
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Re: Obama opens up Cuba

Unread postby GregT » Tue 22 Mar 2016, 18:12:31

Shaved Monkey wrote:Cuba was the only sustainable developed country maybe they will become the default collapse level we should all aspire to.

http://khlo.co.uk/index.php/cuba-the-on ... -the-world


You beat me to it SM. Western wages and GDPs are not sustainable. When we're done wrecking the planet, I doubt very much anybody will be making the equivalent of $14 per month.
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