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THE China & the Environment Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby FreakOil » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 01:00:12

Heineken wrote:It stinks from top to bottom.


What the hell are you talking about? I can understand your anger with the government of China and the Red Capitalists, but a bunch of dirt-poor farmers and factory workers. What have they ever done?

In the early 1980s, Deng Xiaoping said "Let a few get rich first." He openly told the Chinese people that a small portion of the population would be driving around in luxury cars while the rest slaved for peanuts. Big Western companies like GM and Volkswagen were allowed to form joint ventures with state-owned companies. Since then, foreign brands have continued to dominate China's exports and local sales, with a few exceptions in telecommunications and white goods.

The regulatory agencies enabled pollution and destruction of the biuosphere in exchange for payola, while the regional government were willing to do anything to attract foreign investment and create jobs, even at the expense of the poor, who had their land confiscated and polluted by the by-products of industry.

And what did the poor get in return? Most are still farmers, and a few hundred million more got jobs at factories, working for wages that keep them alive and allow them to go home once a year to be with their families on Lunar New Year. They've never been allowed the unionize; it's theoretically still a communist state, and the government's job is to protect the workers. Their wages have declined in real terms since 1997.

In other words, it's just another sordid alliance between industry and state - global industry and state. Foreign manufacturers have a seat at the table. Like I said, foreign-owned manufacturers are responsible for 60% of China's exports. And yet here I see posters advocating the destruction of all of China, including the people who got shat on the most during China's industrial period.

Americans will finally come to realize that you caused the Great Housing Bubble and Crash by manipulating your currency and artificially keeping long term US interest rates low by buying up US t-bills. And they'll be pissed.


What? Chinese bought up T-bills to artificially deflate their currency, which they had to do to maintain a peg with the U.S. dollar, which the U.S. government asked them to do in 1997 to help stop the Asian financial crisis from spreading any further. They had to keep their currency artificially deflated - wrongly, I'll admit - to maintain low production costs and prevent foreign manufacturers from moving to another low cost country.

But that does not mean that China forced Americans to buy houses that they couldn't afford with money that they didn't have, and the Chinese also did not force predatory lenders to tell greedy would-be McMansion owners that housing prices would go up forever.

That guy's a real asshat for trying to pass blame to the Chinese for Americans' greed and financial idiocy.
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Pretorian » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 01:31:32

There is a very good book "dersu Uzala" by Arseniev about this region in 1905-1910. There is a movie too, for those who can't read.
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Heineken » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 10:24:42

FreakOil wrote:. . . but a bunch of dirt-poor farmers and factory workers. What have they ever done?


Overbred.
Last edited by Heineken on Fri 11 Apr 2008, 14:39:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby FreakOil » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 12:05:15

Heineken wrote:
FreakOil wrote:
Heineken wrote: . . . but a bunch of dirt-poor farmers and factory workers. What have they ever done?


Overbred.


They've overbred on their own soil. They're no threat to you. There will be massive calamities in China, but I don't think they should be celebrated.
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Byron100 » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 12:33:50

Before I say anything else, I do want to emphasize that I am appalled at what China has done to their own land, polluting vast swaths of territory for many generations to come. But this doesn't absolve us here in the States from our own sins, for we are the ones that have made the China Nightmare possible in the first place. If it wasn't for those g-dammed capitalists who rammed so-called "free trade" down our throats a generation ago, just because they were tired of the UAW and their brethren having a bit too much power, China would have never emerged into the hyper-capitalist state it is today. Capitalism is a disease, and China happens to be the most intensely infected of any country on Earth.

It's just like the old debate of illegal drugs here in the States: Do we properly blame the drug users themselves for fostering the illegal drug trade, or do we blame the countries that produce that stuff to satisfy the American market? Do you think the drug overlords of Columbia would ever gotten as powerful as they did if Americans didn't abuse drugs in such massive quantities? I think not. If Wal-Mart hadn't been allowed to import all those cheap baubles from China back in the 1980s, is there any way that China could have embarked on their massive "growth" spree? Imagine if America had the wisdom to stick to protectionist trade policies, putting American producers first, while keeping them in check with the world's strictest labor and environmental laws...none of this would have come to past in the first place. Sure, toasters would cost $75, but they'd still work 40 years later. Jeans might cost $50, but that's just a dinner out. How many pairs of jeans does a guy need anyhow?? My dad has an American-made sandwich press that was given as a wedding present in 1963....and that thing still works. And now I can't even buy a sandwich press, at any price, as nobody even has the foresight to make them anymore (grrrr).

That being said, I am giddy with glee at the delicious thought of America defaulting on our foreign debt in the grandest of ways, leaving China holding a bunch of worthless paper, and the economic firestorm that's going to be unleashed over there when the boats from China stop coming. Forever. No country in the world is going to fall as hard and fast as China will once we halt our imports from that wretched land. And it can't possibly happen soon enough!!
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Ferretlover » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 12:50:03

gnm wrote:But it gave me an in for the lumberjack song!


OOohhhHHHHoooo. Sorry I didn't catch that-I am not familiar with "The Lumberjack Song."
Could you hum a few bars, please? :lol:
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 12:52:55

Pretorian wrote:There is a very good book "dersu Uzala" by Arseniev about this region in 1905-1910. There is a movie too, for those who can't read.


The movie "Dersu Uzala", made by the great Japanese film director Akira Kurosawa, is excellent even if you can read.

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The film won many prizes, including the 1975 oscar for best foreign film.
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Heineken » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 14:41:53

FreakOil wrote:They've overbred on their own soil. They're no threat to you. There will be massive calamities in China, but I don't think they should be celebrated.


Are you kidding? You don't think what happens in China affects the rest of the world?

I'm not celebrating anyone's suffering, BTW.
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Pretorian » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 16:16:20

FreakOil wrote:
Heineken wrote:
FreakOil wrote:
Heineken wrote: . . . but a bunch of dirt-poor farmers and factory workers. What have they ever done?


Overbred.


They've overbred on their own soil. They're no threat to you.


Does it mean them annihillating unique species is not of my concern, if they do it on their own soil?
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Pretorian » Fri 11 Apr 2008, 16:25:29

Plantagenet wrote:
Pretorian wrote:There is a very good book "dersu Uzala" by Arseniev about this region in 1905-1910. There is a movie too, for those who can't read.


The movie "Dersu Uzala", made by the great Japanese film director Akira Kurosawa, is excellent even if you can read.

Image

The film won many prizes, including the 1975 oscar for best foreign film.


of course the movie is good. But the book is better. Dont know if english translation is any good though.
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby WildRose » Sat 12 Apr 2008, 07:24:35

China is hugely overpopulated, but that was inevitable as the country has had many years to become that way. If they had large families in the past, it was for the same reason as in any other densely populated country in the world - birth control is a recent discovery. In Canada, we encourage immigration in order to have a large enough populace for our government to collect taxes from, simply because we're a young country and we're a wealthy country, and women here only wish to have 2.1 children!

The Chinese are not, in my opinion, as gluttonous as we are. It is very difficult to find an overweight person in China. Homes and apartments are on average very small, about 500 or 600 sq. feet. They largely do not use toilet paper, any many wash their clothes by hand. Almost everyone hangs their clothes out to dry; imagine the extra burden that would be placed on the country's electrical grids if they all used driers.

The western ways are being adopted quickly in China, though, with crowded freeways and some of the fast food chains and hotels we all recognize in North America, as well as very large bank buildings. Somebody's making money in China.
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby ekaggata » Sat 12 Apr 2008, 10:33:41

seldom_seen wrote:
ekaggata wrote:There is something deeply odious about Westerners' developing hatred of the Chinese.

Eat me. China hates us, and they don't try to hide it. So fck'em.

I'll pass on your kind offer of a meal, but as someone who's lived in China for 3 years I can tell you that "they hate us" is errant nonsense, whether you mean America, the West or any other country, with the important exception of Japan.

ekaggata wrote:Siberia is an enormous and largely untapped resource. The only good thing is that it is so unimaginably huge and difficult to access, so the process will take an enormous amount of time to really start to have an effect.

Uh, sorry to burst your bubble. The logging of Siberia has been going on since the 1950's by Russians. The Asians moved in with their industrial machines in the 80s to rapidly accelerate the destruction of these forests.

There are currently only about 400-500 Siberian Tigers remaining in the wilds of Russian Siberia (with next to none in China).

As someone who's taken the Trans Siberian, I can assure you the taiga is not yet close to disappearing. "Largely untouched" refers to the difference between what has been taken and what remains. That ratio is very small. If you want a reference point for deforestation, take my own country of England. That is devastation.
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby dissident » Sat 12 Apr 2008, 11:03:17

So the BBC discovered corruption in Siberia. LOL. This is nothing more than agitprop. Things were way worse under the regime of the west's darling Yeltsin. Since Putin ain't no Stalin, he can't turn around in a few years the disaster created by the monetarist swine that ran rampant under Yeltsin. But things are changing substantially. No more Khodorkovsky style brazen theft and siphoning of money into offshore accounts. It is hard to take seriously any outfit that treats Khodorkovsky as a martyr of freedom and then bitches about relatively microscopic corruption. The BBC also applauds the safe haven for Berezovsky afforded by the UK. Berezovsky is Russia's version of Al Capone and is currently trying to export political strife to Russia. So anything the BBC spews about Russia is automatically suspect.
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Heineken » Sat 12 Apr 2008, 13:35:36

ekaggata wrote:
seldom_seen wrote:
ekaggata wrote:There is something deeply odious about Westerners' developing hatred of the Chinese.

Eat me. China hates us, and they don't try to hide it. So fck'em.

I'll pass on your kind offer of a meal, but as someone who's lived in China for 3 years I can tell you that "they hate us" is errant nonsense, whether you mean America, the West or any other country, with the important exception of Japan.

ekaggata wrote:Siberia is an enormous and largely untapped resource. The only good thing is that it is so unimaginably huge and difficult to access, so the process will take an enormous amount of time to really start to have an effect.

Uh, sorry to burst your bubble. The logging of Siberia has been going on since the 1950's by Russians. The Asians moved in with their industrial machines in the 80s to rapidly accelerate the destruction of these forests.

There are currently only about 400-500 Siberian Tigers remaining in the wilds of Russian Siberia (with next to none in China).

As someone who's taken the Trans Siberian, I can assure you the taiga is not yet close to disappearing. "Largely untouched" refers to the difference between what has been taken and what remains. That ratio is very small. If you want a reference point for deforestation, take my own country of England. That is devastation.



Once the devastation of vast forests begins in earnest, it turns out, often with surprising speed, that they weren't so vast after all. That's history---including history in the US.

China can polish off the taiga like it was a toothpick, and probably will. Whatever they can't ax will be destroyed by the global warming they're busily exacerbating.

To me the issue is that China has access to extensive new information about the consequences of such development but either ignores it or simply doesn't care. Instead, the reckless and doomed and therefore pointless industrial development continues, mindlessly and greedily and without a speck of the wisdom the Chinese were once reputed to have.

To me that makes China just another vicious enemy---of the Earth and its denizens.
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Ferretlover » Sat 12 Apr 2008, 14:35:48

The Chinese are NOT all nice people.

I offer this in rebuttal:

Unspeakablely horrible
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Byron100 » Sat 12 Apr 2008, 15:54:29

What NEEDS to be done is for the USA / UK / WEST to ENSURE we have viable production of ESSENTIALS in our respective countries. For if we don't, then China (the leaders) will then have the west by the balls, peak oil, peak food, peak anything notwithstanding.


Boy, I couldn't agree with you more on this one. I just cannot get my mind around the arguments of economists that insist that "free" trade is essential for economic well-being of this country...I say we round up these folks and put them in the middle of a ring of bulls with their rear ends facing inward...so they can smell the bullsh*t of their severely misguided beliefs, along with their total disregard to the global environment.

If we do one thing in this country, it's to erect protectionist trade measures NOW, and put ourselves back on the path to self-sufficiency...and maybe, just maybe, China will go back to the way they've done things for the past couple of thousand years...
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Ferretlover » Sat 12 Apr 2008, 19:11:31

There's something to be said in favor of being xenophobic!
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Re: Siberian forests being stripped for Chinese market

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 13 Apr 2008, 00:25:40

Byron100 wrote:If we do one thing in this country, it's to erect protectionist trade measures NOW, and put ourselves back on the path to self-sufficiency.....


How do you suggest we replace all the imported oil?
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