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THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 23:04:02

Cog

Have you read Brave New World?

Have you read Amusing Ourselves to Death?

I ask before I launch into a tiresome explanation.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 00:18:57

+1 Cogster. That's when people find out what it's really all about. The end of illusion is the end of control. Like you I'm offended by the idea some bunch of cronies is ever going to know what's better for me than me. The harder they try, the more likely i end up instead of ignoring, fighting them. I'm not someone anyone should pick fights with. There's millions more who think like us, we will sort ourselves out just fine when the time comes. F#ck big brother.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 00:22:57

Newfie, our posts went up within seconds of each other & neither of us quoted. I don't think either Cog or me are ignorant of the angle you are coming from at all. Without writing an essay, i think you know what I'm getting at also. Our solution is the Phoenix & ashes, yours is Soilent Green.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 01:35:42

vtsnowedin wrote:
Really Ralfy? When I'm talking about 57 chevy assembly lines being over taken by robots and day care you want to throw in statistics for Zimbabwe?


Zimbabwe? That's an ave. for most people.

And this thread is not limited to what happens in the U.S.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 05:11:29

SeaGypsy wrote:Newfie, our posts went up within seconds of each other & neither of us quoted. I don't think either Cog or me are ignorant of the angle you are coming from at all. Without writing an essay, i think you know what I'm getting at also. Our solution is the Phoenix & ashes, yours is Soilent Green.


Yep could not have said it better. Better it all burns to the ground than live in that sterile and planned world that only a Dr Mengele could enjoy.

Yeah Newfie I've read Brave New World but not the other one you mentioned. I do not hold life so dear that I would trade the yolk of slavery just to eke out another day of living. If nature or resource limits puts a constraint on me and you call that a type of slavery, I'll happy concede that. But I won't tolerate another human doing forcing me into it.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 05:19:32

ralfy wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Really Ralfy? When I'm talking about 57 chevy assembly lines being over taken by robots and day care you want to throw in statistics for Zimbabwe?


Zimbabwe? That's an ave. for most people.

And this thread is not limited to what happens in the U.S.
Well many of those "average" people are living in socialist countries controlled by dictators. That is the main cause of their poverty.
I prefer to focus on things here in the USA and leave the rest of the world to solve their own problems, or not.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 07:37:50

It is not about a totalitarian forced system. It is about a common set of values that everyone holds up as worthy and necessary for EVERYONE. As Sea said There's millions more who think like us". And so many now think Capitalism and Democracy are generally good for humans. So, in the Future in this degraded less bountiful planet people will view frugality and sharing as good and selfishness and greed as bad. I believe a synchronization can be attained between the interests of the individual and society at large
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby GHung » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 09:15:42

vtsnowedin wrote:... Well many of those "average" people are living in socialist countries controlled by dictators. That is the main cause of their poverty.
I prefer to focus on things here in the USA and leave the rest of the world to solve their own problems, or not.


Yes. We'll make all of our underwear, shoes, socks, computer parts, car parts, and...., and .....; all by ourselves. Enough for 320 million of us.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 09:50:15

SeaGypsy wrote:Newfie, our posts went up within seconds of each other & neither of us quoted. I don't think either Cog or me are ignorant of the angle you are coming from at all. Without writing an essay, i think you know what I'm getting at also. Our solution is the Phoenix & ashes, yours is Soilent Green.


Sea,

Be quite clear I have NO solution. I see problems and cunumdrums and try to talk about them, try to understand them. But I see no solution. I see lots more problems and lots less freedom. In many, many ways most of us here want similar things, but it’s just so damn hard to come to grips with the reality and then to express it clearly.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 10:02:57

GHung wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:... Well many of those "average" people are living in socialist countries controlled by dictators. That is the main cause of their poverty.
I prefer to focus on things here in the USA and leave the rest of the world to solve their own problems, or not.


Yes. We'll make all of our underwear, shoes, socks, computer parts, car parts, and...., and .....; all by ourselves. Enough for 320 million of us.

I'm not an isolationist but the USA certainly could go it alone if we chose to.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 10:31:07

Onlooker, the vision you are talking about isn't going to happen, unless humanity completely transitions, as a whole, simultaneously. There is no precedent for that & the premise is based on boundless resources- so it doesn't make sense. Whether it's VT's version, some kind of hyper nationalism, or localism, tribalism, whatever- if it doesn't fit with human nature somehow it's barely worth discussing. Globalism is based on cheap energy primarily, without which it will fail without the slightest doubt. When it does, the interconnect you perceive as the basis of Utopia vanishes. As it is now we get very little news from- most of Africa, Latin America, the South Pacific, a great swathe of Central Asia, & that's with every 3rd person having a smartphone, air travel, satellite coms etc etc. When the tools of interconnectedness go down, so does the empire state.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 14:39:57

I can only say that in the future groups that are more cooperative and in sync will probably be more adaptive than those who are not over the long term.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 18:42:59

SeaGypsy wrote: There is no precedent for that & the premise is based on boundless resources- so it doesn't make sense. Whether it's VT's version, some kind of hyper nationalism, or localism, tribalism, whatever- if it doesn't fit with human nature somehow it's barely worth discussing. Globalism is based on cheap energy primarily, without which it will fail without the slightest doubt.

While cheap energy has been the norm for about a century I don't think it is the base of Globalism. As energy gets scarcer and higher in price the ability to move goods from a high energy area of the globe to an area with less energy resources will provide those that can move the resources with profit opportunities.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 18:55:35

vtsnowedin wrote:
Well many of those "average" people are living in socialist countries controlled by dictators. That is the main cause of their poverty.
I prefer to focus on things here in the USA and leave the rest of the world to solve their own problems, or not.


Many of these countries are not socialist but mixed economies, like the U.S. The main cause of their poverty involve the rise of financial oligarchs.

Your last point is illogical because the U.S. itself is dependent on the rest of the world to sustain its debt-driven spending. Hence, incredible levels of funds needed to support a military-industrial complex to keep the petrodollar propped up, and that in turn needed to keep the consumer spending economy and neoliberalist policies going, part of which involves purchasing goods and services from elsewhere.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 18:58:02

vtsnowedin wrote: I'm not an isolationist but the USA certainly could go it alone if we chose to.


Definitely, but that will mean the decline of capitalism and ironically a return to a subsistence economy. And given the very nature of peak oil and limits to growth, that will likely not be a matter of choice for everyone.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 08 Dec 2017, 19:03:37

vtsnowedin wrote: While cheap energy has been the norm for about a century I don't think it is the base of Globalism. As energy gets scarcer and higher in price the ability to move goods from a high energy area of the globe to an area with less energy resources will provide those that can move the resources with profit opportunities.


Actually, that is the base of globalization, and globalization is the source of profit opportunities.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 09 Dec 2017, 04:22:16

ralfy wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: I'm not an isolationist but the USA certainly could go it alone if we chose to.


Definitely, but that will mean the decline of capitalism and ironically a return to a subsistence economy. And given the very nature of peak oil and limits to growth, that will likely not be a matter of choice for everyone.
Quite the opposite. With 330 million people and vast natural resources the American economy can do quite well by itself and capitalism would be the engine that provides plenty for everyone not just subsistence.
But of course the experiment will never happen as we crave our coffee imported from Brazil and our cocaine from Columbia.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 Dec 2017, 08:47:50

The carrying capacity of the USA is significantly below 330 million. Hard to say what, perhaps 100 million ish. Canada is a bit better.

But that is a feature of Capitalisim (and humans) it is driven to overshoot. Capitalism exist is in the recent past, it has no forward looking feature. No planning, at least not beyond the next quarter.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 09 Dec 2017, 08:55:55

You would think at this point all of us on this site would agree that our population has overshoot its environmental carrying capacity on most places on this planet
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Sat 09 Dec 2017, 09:20:18

Obviously that is not true onlooker because the population is still growing, albeit because humans can employ fossil fuel slaves to support that human population. Carrying capacity has no true meaning if you can manipulate the world and its resources to support more population. We aren't cows.
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