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THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 10:42:19

You progressives think the size of the pie is limited and those who are successful are somehow eating your pie. You could not be more wrong. Your slice of the pie is determined by how big of a piece you want to create and what you are willing to do to get it.

But please continue your moaning about how life has screwed you over. I find it amusing to say the least.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby GHung » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 10:46:17

Cog wrote:You progressives think the size of the pie is limited and those who are successful are somehow eating your pie. You could not be more wrong. Your slice of the pie is determined by how big of a piece you want to create and what you are willing to do to get it.

But please continue your moaning about how life has screwed you over. I find it amusing to say the least.


Funny, that. The most moaning I see around here is by you, Cog, moaning about someone trying to steal your bone.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 11:01:37

GHung wrote:
Cog wrote:You progressives think the size of the pie is limited and those who are successful are somehow eating your pie. You could not be more wrong. Your slice of the pie is determined by how big of a piece you want to create and what you are willing to do to get it.

But please continue your moaning about how life has screwed you over. I find it amusing to say the least.


Funny, that. The most moaning I see around here is by you, Cog, moaning about someone trying to steal your bone.

:P :lol:
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 11:32:21

GHung wrote:
Cog wrote:You progressives think the size of the pie is limited and those who are successful are somehow eating your pie. You could not be more wrong. Your slice of the pie is determined by how big of a piece you want to create and what you are willing to do to get it.

But please continue your moaning about how life has screwed you over. I find it amusing to say the least.


Funny, that. The most moaning I see around here is by you, Cog, moaning about someone trying to steal your bone.


Not at all. But you are the guys talking about fairness and equality. I'm as equal and fair as I desire. Your words are the words of confiscation of wealth from others because your life is what you made it. No one likes a thief or at least most normal people don't like them. Except for those who want someone to steal on their behalf. The progressive.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 11:41:24

There is nothing inherently fair about any other economic system you care to name, either. There simply are no other systems anywhere in the World that work at more than a basic level. Russia is now an Oligarchy, and China a curious Authoritarian Capitalism. Both are degraded forms of Capitalism. Meanwhile, Marxism has failed most recently in Venezuela and Cuba, where we have glimpsed poverty and misery in both places.

If you have examples of modern countries that offer improved economic systems, then please name them. Because so far, it seems like what you are complaining about is the distribution of wealth under a system where some people have more because they have worked harder.

Nobody ever said Capitalism was perfect, it's only far better than anything else ever tried. You are an American and you are complaining about a country that has enabled more wealth in our Middle Class than in any other country. Or perhaps you are sniveling because you see others that have more than you do, and resent it. The desire to have more should instead incent you to work harder, earn more, get promoted, and get a better paying job.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 18:22:45

Curious, that you all are describing Capitalism and extolling its virtues which precisely in fact are its vices. No doubt, it has been exceedingly good at being ruthless and exploitative. For that is its nature as a system adhered to by humans. It seeks to out compete to conquer because it is about maximining profit as the ultimate goal. And so it is true via Survival of the fittest Capitalism has effectively out competed and destroyed other cultures who stood in the way of this Maximing of profits. The post above in this thread show how many bellicose conflicts can be traced to the Imperial mandates of the English Empire and the US Empire. Imperial is to say growth and maximing of profit. So, your defense of Capitalism is the other side of the coin of its pernicious aspects. We happen to be on the fortunate side. I am NOT complaining as I keenly recognize my good fortune. But, this should not mean I have to be a staunch advocate of the exploitation and abuse and unfair and unjust circumstances Capitalism has left in its wake throughout the planet. In fact, it is us fortunate ones who most need to find our inner compassion to empathize with all those around the planet who have been the victims of this greedy Ethos and not its beneficiaries.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby GHung » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 19:00:37

KaiserJeep wrote:Nobody ever said Capitalism was perfect, it's only far better than anything else ever tried.....


Better at what? There is a number of metrics where it's clear that Americans under the American style of capitalism aren't better off and happier than people in some of the less capitalist countries .

KaiserJeep wrote: ... Or perhaps you are sniveling because you see others that have more than you do, and resent it....


There you go again, KJ. You insist on injecting assholiness into your posts, displaying your true colors. I wouldn't want to be anything like you, and certainly don't waste any resentment on you.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 19:07:45

You would be another one, wasting time uselessly complaining about a place that has a long and increasing line of people waiting to move here. If anything you said bore the remotest resemblance to truth, Americans would be leaving here and going there.

Give it up, you are deluded as well.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby GHung » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 19:41:26

KaiserJeep wrote:You would be another one, wasting time uselessly complaining about a place that has a long and increasing line of people waiting to move here. If anything you said bore the remotest resemblance to truth, Americans would be leaving here and going there.

Give it up, you are deluded as well.


Where have I complained?
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 20:20:02

GHung wrote:Better at what? There is a number of metrics where it's clear that Americans under the American style of capitalism aren't better off and happier than people in some of the less capitalist countries .


I have to doubt that is true if you factor out all the recent immigrants both legal and illegal that are skewing the metrics.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby baha » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 05:21:58

Yes I am resentful, Yes I was venting. I don't resent your success, I resent the system.

It lead me off down the wrong path and I had to divorce myself from it to find satisfaction. It leads everyone down the path of 'money is satisfaction' but that just ain't so. For me anyway...

I was the middle kid in a middle class family. I never hurt for food or shelter but was never spoiled. My dad was a mechanical engineer and a drunk. My mom was a college math teacher until I left home. They divorced when I was 12. I dropped out of high school, took the GED, and joined the Air Force to get away.

I got out of the service, got a BS in Physics, and went to work as a GS employee for the Navy in the Aegis program. The first 5 years were challenging and fun. I built Fiber Optic tactical communications systems that are sailing around in the Sea of Japan right now. I got 6 patents for my efforts but they never paid me a dime. I only get royalties if the Navy sells the technology to private industry and that's not going to happen. Private industry doesn't shoot many guided missiles.

I peaked in the govt at GS-12. They pushed me into management and I was totally unhappy even though my salary kept going up. I left the govt to make more money and because I was sick of the way I was supposed to handle the people's money. Spend, Spend, Spend...

Then I entered the private sector and discovered the worship of money. I designed and built many things only to see them compromised or cancelled by the bean counters. It has gotten to the point that no one wants the best, they want the cheapest. I resent that...don't hire me for my expertise and then dismiss everything I say. Why am I here, Why are you paying me all this money if you won't listen to my recommendations. I don't need to resent your money, I make plenty, I resent your lack of vision and petty money grubbing.

I was making good money, living in a 4 bedroom house in suburbia, and had all the things I was supposed to have...and I was miserable. Money can't buy happiness.

Needless to say I wasn't working very hard at that point, and they kept me in a box (cubicle) and told me what to do. The company got bought by Cendant whose CEO was Henry Silvermann (at that time one of the highest paid CEOs in the world). He ran the company down, sold off the assets, and laid off the people. I got laid off in the fourth round and he got fabulously rich. I don't resent his money, I resent his selfish greed.

They paid me $29k cash to go away :) I took the opportunity to rethink my life and make a new plan. I sold my house, gave 75% of my possessions to Goodwill, moved into my RV, trailered my VW, and wandered around the country for a while. I spent 5 years unemployed. I told my mom I was taking an early, temporary retirement. I'll go back to work when I find something worth doing...

There are other ways besides money for society to reward you but they don't count for much. I have credentials. A BS in Physics and 6 patents makes it very easy for me to get a job. I don't sweat money because I know I can make some anytime I want.

But money does not make me happy. Watching something I built come to life makes me happy. I quit project management and never looked back. I career shifted to solar power and I made it very clear in my interviews, I don't want to sit at a desk, I want to climb on roofs and build things. That's what makes me happy.

My career shift resulted (after 7 years) in me making less than half what I used to make. I will never make the money now that I did then. But it's OK...I am so much happier with life and I love my job. I don't resent the income loss. I resent the fact that society puts more value on stealing money thru interest rates than building the power of the future.

Bankers make more than builders. A leech that feeds on society and contributes nothing is more valuable than the person who provides your energy.

There is the problem with capitalism. It's all about money, not value.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby GHung » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 09:48:52

Capitalism promotes maximum profits, extraction and consumption, maximizes waste streams, but doesn't account for most of those waste streams. While other economic systems do much the same, capitalism is, as KJ said above, the very best, consequences be damned. How can any thinking person of good character be supportive of that?

The time of ignoring those consequences for the sake of maximum extraction is drawing to a close. A lot of uninvited forcing will be involved.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 10:06:22

A lot of uninvited forcing will be involved.-----
Which is a euphemism for stuff like death, war, famine and pestilence
You know the 4 horseman of the apocalypse
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 10:27:22

GHung wrote:Capitalism promotes maximum profits, extraction and consumption, maximizes waste streams, but doesn't account for most of those waste streams. While other economic systems do much the same, capitalism is, as KJ said above, the very best, consequences be damned. How can any thinking person of good character be supportive of that?

The time of ignoring those consequences for the sake of maximum extraction is drawing to a close. A lot of uninvited forcing will be involved.


Actually Capitalism promotes minmized waste streams. After all Gasoline was a waste product of Kerosene production until Benze chose it as the fuel for his first successful horseless carriage. The gunk that is left in the bottom of the bath when copper castings are refined via electricity was considered waste until someone figured out that refining the gunk produced silver and sometimes gold and platinum too. Heck even the CO2 waste of fossil fuel burning has uses as plant greenhouse fertilizer and as feedstock for some chemical processes.

All waste streams are just things nobody has figured out how to refine or recycle yet. Someday even those giant landfills made by cities like Phoenix will be recycled back into useful things, just not right now.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 13:22:45

The problem with all of you and your opinions about Capitalism is the assignment of blame. I personally do not care whether you are a devotee of Capitalism or a deluded little pinko communist. But I have to point out that 10,000 years ago when Stone Age humans invented fishing, trade caravans, prostitution, religion, and all manner of other things, all we were really doing is overlaying ape instincts with a thin veneer of cultural traditions. "Capitalism" is not a system, nobody invented it, the most anybody ever did before the science we call Anthropology was invented, was observe and describe natural human behavior - with the important distinction that the nature of mankind as a primate was not understood.

Do you get it yet? There is nobody in charge of the economy, no person or group, no rules that apply universally, no "system" exists, there is nothing there for you to rant and rave against. A lot of you appear to be reacting to my disclosure that I have a net worth of over $1M. Me and the wife togather, adding in the property on Nantucket, are now worth over $2M. We acquired this property and money by working, saving, and playing by the unwritten rules of Capitalism. We have created a trust and will almost certainly designate my daughter as the new trustee, and she will have to pick one of her kids to succeed her as trustee. The idea will be that there will be at least two family vacation homesteads in Wisconsin and Nantucket, and our descendants will still have to earn a living, but will have a place to go and recreate free of charge.

Meanwhile, lest you think I am some rich flaming rectuum, I just spent two weeks on the island picking up trash, cutting brush, clearing pine needles from rain gutters, cleaning 20+ years of household clutter (36 large trash bags) and arranging for vehicle repairs and contractors to correct some of the obvious major problems with the place. I also arranged for a couple of tons of crushed scallop shells to be dumped on the unpaved driveway, and I'm glad I won't be there to smell the stench while it's fresh. The estate won't be closed until July 2018, and we will make any home improvements after that. Meanwhile, we have decided that if possible, we will park about half of the cash for our San Jose home sale in a few acres of beachfront property on Lake Michigan, and eventually build a superefficient house there.

Your life is what YOU make of it. The things you do and the decisions you make are important, and a lot of them will impact the remainder of your existence on the planet. I have led a typical American lifestyle as have most of you. I choose to live the remainder of my life in a low impact manner, using as little external energy as possible, and conserving FF's and replacing them with renewables. I intend to enjoy the remainder of my life, and to enrich the lives of my grandkids with fond memories of Grandma and Grandpa.

Understand one thing before you go. The problems you are railing against are not due to Capitalism. There exists at this time on this planet a large overshoot population of humans, plus their animal and plant food species. The ecology of our world is suffering greatly due to the thousands of ways that this overshoot population impacts a diverse and balanced ecology. I personally believe that mankind will overcome and correct the various imbalances with - wait for it - more technology, both on this planet and in space.

If there were less than a billion humans, there would be a lot less stress, and my opinion is that most of you (excepting those whose parents abused them by instilling a reverence for Marxism) would be content and would be feathering your own nests as I am starting to do. Quit wasting your precious time railing against a system that is not even a system, rather a simple label for natural ape behaviors.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby GHung » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 14:46:09

KJ said; "'Capitalism' is not a system..... blah, blah, blah...."

But wait! Up-thread you said; "That is what Capitalism is, a system that has brought more prosperity and wealth to more people than any other...."

and....

"There is nothing inherently fair about any other economic system you care to name, either. There simply are no other systems anywhere in the World that work at more than a basic level.".....

.....referring to capitalism as a system. Color me thinking you need treatment for dementia, or maybe there's more than one KJ? Quite the rant though 8O

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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 15:04:00

First off, I am happy really for you Kaiser that you and your family are doing well economically and your hard work has paid off. Second, most of us here have concurred that we are greatly overpopulated and that this is a fundamental reason that our Environments are becoming less capable of sustaining all of us and that a much reduces population would be a good thing.

As for why I "rail" against Capitalism. Well it comes down to the fact that I think we can do better than this. We do not have to be the Kudzu Apes. Yes, we have inbred primate instincts but we have evolved in more complex and diverse ways via culture and such to simply peg us as some sort of smart primate. We are smart but we are also enlightened in some ways that animals are not and cannot be. We have Science, Arts, Philosophy, Love poetry, charitable foundations etc etc.
What I am trying to say is we have the capacity to be much more charitable, humane, compassionate, empathetic and caring towards each other. We also can form an Ethos based around these virtuous traits and a respect and veneration for that which sustains us meaning Mother Earth.

But we cannot and will not as long as we our behavior is guided by an Economic set of rules and goals that emphasize greed over need, selfishness over sharing, etc etc. You seem to think we cannot ever create anything other than Capitalism because it is build into our nature. I am saying our Nature is much more mult-faceted and we can and must be geared towards more harmony with each other and with Nature.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 15:10:19

On a side note Primates have been discovered to exhibit these more kinder gentler traits. See work of Jane Goodall
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 15:33:06

Onlooker, nobody taught me to be greedy or not to care about others, or not to share or anything else. My parents taught me to be charitable, care for others, and to share everything with my five siblings.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with our discussion of Capitalism. It is not until one is interacting with strangers, perhaps even people one will never meet over a network, that what you call "rules" comes into play.

BTW, I never said that primate instincts cannot be overcome. In this very thread, you will find my postings where I said on more than one occasion that a university level education and a considerable personal effort over a period of years will overcome primate instincts. You and I have put in the considerable investment of time and money and we both understand what we are talking about, as would another few million people on a planet of 7.5+ billions.

WE are simply not the problem. Also note that even if you could convice all of us capable of understanding the finer points of the correctness of your analysis, you are missing the bigger picture. Of those 7.5+ billion other humans, most are involved in the hardscrabble struggle for existence, to find clean water, food, shelter, and clothing. In what little spare time they have, they are NOT reading about economics. They are too damned busy having sex and reproducing as fast as possible, because that is the proven primate path to survival, to make the ape troop as numerous and powerful as possible, to displace the nearby ape troops, and eat them.

Because that is how apes behave. Note also that you can explain those kindler/gentler traits to your fellow humans as they chow down:
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby baha » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 08:50:07

Oh, the dichotomy that is KJ.

On one hand we are apes living our life totally controlled by instinct. On the other we are destined to evolve and conquer the universe...I understand, I live a dichotomy of my own. I know we will crash and struggle to survive, but in the end we will be stronger and more able to responsibly spread thru the universe.

Yes, capitalism is a system. No one invented it but everyone keeps trying to define it. It continuously evolves and went off track in the 80's, or maybe the 70's when we disconnected from gold (value). Read the article by Chris Martenson on the home page...it will continue to evolve, like it or not. You better hope the fiat money you have continues to have value. Rest assured the REAL estate you have will always have value.

I think you know I support everyone on Peakoil.com. I don't ask for agreement or civility. I ask for deep thought and honest responses. The world will not stop evolving, so hang on. It's going to be a hell of a ride :)
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