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THE Bolivia Thread (merged)

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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby jbrovont » Mon 15 Sep 2008, 07:31:24

I agree. In strategy games, this is called "turtling," when you draw all your resources in behind your defenses and attempt to ride out an overwhelming assault. Pound for pound you get the most use out of your lead this way.

I too disagree with using the military for domestic control. They would however bring a lot of useful skills, equipment and man-power with them that would be a tremendous help towards developing a localized and renewable infrastructure. There was an article a few years back in Science about replacing America's electricity needs with wind. They estimated a cost of around 1.5 trillion. I'll bet the army corps of engineers would much rather be building windmills in the US than getting shot up trying to pick around mines and build bases in the burning desert.
Cashmere wrote:
ReverseEngineer wrote:One thing we HAVE to do very quickly is withdraw ALL our armed forces back into the US,, just to maintain domestic stability. then we have to assess the crop needs for our own society, and whether we can produce enough gas and diesel from the remaining fields in the Gulf and in Alaska to keep the tractors moving on the fields and enough trucks moving across the decaying Interstate to get the food to the people herefor the next year. Then we gotta figure out how to use the rail system and barges to move the goods around the next year.
Gotta get very local now. We cannot afford to project out a military force and expect to get much EROEI. As a society, we have to HUNKER DOWN.
Agree with everything except the thought of having the military act as a domestic control force.
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Mon 15 Sep 2008, 07:35:38

Cashmere wrote:Agree with everything except the thought of having the military act as a domestic control force.

Much as I dislike it, much as I know the risks of a military state, it is the only option. Watch what happens in Houston over the next week. The only PRAYER of maintaining some order here lies in the hands of the military.

I have good faith in the soliders who are our own. I know several Pilots, they are the fathers of children I teach. They are well disciplined and good men, and if the orders are good, they will do a good job in getting them DONE. If the orders are bad, it could be very bad indeed, but the men I know would rebel at that.

I cannot put my faith in the politicians and the bankers, and while it is not my favorite choice, I would sooner put my life in the hands of the military commanders I know. Good men who come from the People. I think most of them will side with the People. Certainly more so than the Bankers.
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby virgincrude » Mon 15 Sep 2008, 10:06:02

Not trying to be pedantic (it comes naturally) Cashmere, that should be "Muchos Problemas"- problema is masculine in Spanish. (SOlution is feminine :wink: )

Lots of evidence to suggest the break up of Bolivia is engineered by the US. For example, the small coincidence that the recently expelled U.S ambassador there was also the main instigator of the Kosovo separation.

The US has a way of sending the best people out to do their jobs. This is really a replay of the overthrow of Salvador Allende on that hemisphere's particular September 11th. Watchers reporting events there are seeing the same things: bands of thugs let loose to whip up the right wing.
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby virgincrude » Mon 15 Sep 2008, 11:33:59

ReverseEngineer:
I have good faith in the soliders who are our own. I know several Pilots, they are the fathers of children I teach. They are well disciplined and good men, and if the orders are good, they will do a good job in getting them DONE. If the orders are bad, it could be very bad indeed, but the men I know would rebel at that.
I cannot put my faith in the politicians and the bankers, and while it is not my favorite choice, I would sooner put my life in the hands of the military commanders I know. Good men who come from the People. I think most of them will side with the People. Certainly more so than the Bankers.

Well, I guess that's what most civilians think so long as the army are not actually taking controll of things. To wish upon yourself a military leadership is vary strange for those who have first hand experience of what a military dictatorship can be like i.e Pakistan, North Korea, Myanmar, or perhaps Chile. Here's how Isabel Allende put it:
To give an idea of what the military coup was like, you have to imagine how a citizen of the United States or Great Britain would feel if the army rolled up in full battle gear to attack the White House or Buckingham Palace, and in the process caused the deaths of thousands of citizens, among them the President of the US or the Queen and Prime Minister of Great Britain, then indefinitely suspended Congress or Parliament, disbanded the Supreme Court, abrogated individual liberties and political parties, declared absolute censorship of the media, and finally, over time, strove mercilessly to extinguish every dissident voice. Now, imagine that these same military men, possessed with Messianic fanaticism, installed themselves in power for years, prepared to root out every last ideological adversary. That is what happened in Chile.

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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby holmes » Mon 15 Sep 2008, 15:38:08

Where are the socialists/Commies and globalists? The US socialist world program is failing. We provide billions of dollars of aid each year to the sociliast and globalist poster children of the world. They never talk about that either. What has happend is a massive lump of humans that are dependent now. They also think the chavez's, the Moas, the che's of the world are going to save them now. It is not going to be a pretty ending to this tragedy.
Globalism is a twisted form of socialism anyway. Get massive piles of humans dependent on their shiny cheap trinkets and ponzi scams. Capitalsm is now turning into a creepy form of socialism as the once abundent grade A resources are tap out.
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby Quinny » Mon 15 Sep 2008, 15:45:43

US socialist world program?
Billion dollars of aid each year to the socialist and globalist poster children of the world. Don't know what you're on, but I'll have some!!
holmes wrote:Where are the socialists/Commies and globalists? The US socialist world program is failing. We provide billions of dollars of aid each year to the sociliast and globalist poster children of the world. They never talk about that either. What has happend is a massive lump of humans that are dependent now. They also think the chavez's, the Moas, the che's of the world are going to save them now. It is not going to be a pretty ending to this tragedy.
Globalism is a twisted form of socialism anyway. Get massive piles of humans dependent on their shiny cheap trinkets and ponzi scams. Capitalsm is now turning into a creepy form of socialism as the once abundent grade A resources are tap out.
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby holmes » Mon 15 Sep 2008, 15:58:51

Quinny wrote:US socialist world program?
Billion dollars of aid each year to the socialist and globalist poster children of the world. Don't know what you're on, but I'll have some!!
holmes wrote:Where are the socialists/Commies and globalists? The US socialist world program is failing. We provide billions of dollars of aid each year to the sociliast and globalist poster children of the world. They never talk about that either. What has happend is a massive lump of humans that are dependent now. They also think the chavez's, the Moas, the che's of the world are going to save them now. It is not going to be a pretty ending to this tragedy.
Globalism is a twisted form of socialism anyway. Get massive piles of humans dependent on their shiny cheap trinkets and ponzi scams. Capitalsm is now turning into a creepy form of socialism as the once abundent grade A resources are tap out.

O my god. You better go do some research and find out what America gives each year in foreign "aid". That aid is dying out as the US goes broke. Do not make me look like the fool. That scam will not work on me. I know it is a tool many use. I am not into it.
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby Quinny » Mon 15 Sep 2008, 16:06:48

USA’s aid, in terms of percentage of their GNP has almost always been lower than any other industrialized nation in the world! and whose money they giving anyway!

INTERNATIONAL OWNERSHIP OF U.S. DEBT - - SOARING - - now $12.5 Trillion
"Foreign interests have more control over the US economy than Americans, leaving the country in a state that is financially imprudent. More and more of our debt is held by foreign countries – some of which are our allies and some are not. The huge holdings of American government debt by countries such as China and Saudi Arabia could leave a powerful financial weapon in the hands of countries that may be hostile to US corporate and diplomatic interests.” -David Walker, the US comptroller general. 23 July 2007.
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby pana_burda » Mon 15 Sep 2008, 23:06:50

¿Muchos? Nope, uno solo ..... NWO.
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby Itsallcomindown » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 03:12:15

America began digging its own grave when we decided to become the world's caretaker. As if the mainstreaming of the socialization of our own country were not enough, we've decided that if we don't feed all the world's poor and down trodden, then we are immoral and unjust. The problem is, that when we run out of money and can no longer feed these people, they will turn on us like rabid dogs turning on their masters. The only way to save ourselves is to begin a global culling while we still can. Unfortunately, our self-righteosness won't allow us to do this. I predict that the people of this country will run around for the next year or so wondering what to do while much of the rest of the world prepares to do it. By the time we figure it out, it will be being done to us and we will be too broke and weakened to be able to do much about it.

As far as living under military rule goes, I think its sad that Americans are even entertaining the idea. Our military is to protect us from foreign threats. They should be deployed to the borders and/or used to take the fight to the enemy. We are Americans, we are self sufficient, we can govern ourselves. As far as domestic threats are concerned, we can protect ourselves as well, its why we have a 2nd amendment.


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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby jbrovont » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 04:29:55

Telling indeed when the average worker can't set aside $50 every two weeks to buy a bond from the country in which they live.

Above I saw the discussion about good men and women in the military remembering their oaths and who they really serve. A worrying trend has cropped up during the last eight years - many experienced generals that have stood up against the administration for these very issues have either resigned or been run out. They were good men, and knew that they didn't fit there anymore. Who's in charge now? Putting people in charge on the basis of the answers they give rather than their experience pretty much means they'll go along with what you want. That _is_ the point, isn't it?

I'm not knocking our armed forces. I'm saying that the highest levels are already being asked to choose between their consciences and their jobs, and they're choosing the moral high-ground. They're also choosing between their jobs, their lives, and their oaths. They can't disobey without sacrificing their lives, or causing the destruction of what they're trying to protect, so they leave. It's the only moral choice, but it's leaving a monster in it's place: a military command chosen on the basis of it's compliance, and not it's experience and moral fiber.

Quinny wrote:USA’s aid, in terms of percentage of their GNP has almost always been lower than any other industrialized nation in the world! and whose money they giving anyway!
INTERNATIONAL OWNERSHIP OF U.S. DEBT - - SOARING - - now $12.5 Trillion
"Foreign interests have more control over the US economy than Americans, leaving the country in a state that is financially imprudent. More and more of our debt is held by foreign countries – some of which are our allies and some are not. The huge holdings of American government debt by countries such as China and Saudi Arabia could leave a powerful financial weapon in the hands of countries that may be hostile to US corporate and diplomatic interests.” -David Walker, the US comptroller general. 23 July 2007.
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby Turlox » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 06:34:00

Parenti or Chomsky Can't remember which said, "Foreign Aid is when poor people in a rich country give money to rich people in a poor country"
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby Quinny » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 07:52:35

This idea that America is somehow the worlds caretaker with some kind of benevolent idea that they are helping to feed all the world's poor and downtrodden is unbelievable. If it wasn't so funny it'd make me angry.

Itsallcomindown wrote:America began digging its own grave when we decided to become the world's caretaker. As if the mainstreaming of the socialization of our own country were not enough, we've decided that if we don't feed all the world's poor and down trodden, then we are immoral and unjust. The problem is, that when we run out of money and can no longer feed these people, they will turn on us like rabid dogs turning on their masters. The only way to save ourselves is to begin a global culling while we still can. Unfortunately, our self-righteosness won't allow us to do this. I predict that the people of this country will run around for the next year or so wondering what to do while much of the rest of the world prepares to do it. By the time we figure it out, it will be being done to us and we will be too broke and weakened to be able to do much about it.

As far as living under military rule goes, I think its sad that Americans are even entertaining the idea. Our military is to protect us from foreign threats. They should be deployed to the borders and/or used to take the fight to the enemy. We are Americans, we are self sufficient, we can govern ourselves. As far as domestic threats are concerned, we can protect ourselves as well, its why we have a 2nd amendment.


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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby Itsallcomindown » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 13:26:31

Why don't you explain what you mean Quinny. I would like to hear about how the U.S. doesn't donate more money to the U.N. than any other country, and doesn't get lambasted for it because it doesn't meet the required percentage of donor GNP set forth by the U.N. The fact is you can't because the U.S. donates 13.29 billion dollars, which is more foreign aid by 4 billion dollars than Japan, the next highest donor at 9.28 billion. In fact the U.S. , Japan, and France(the 3rd highest donor at 5.49 billion) combine to donate more foreign aid than all the other countries combined. Despite this fact the U.S. donates the least amount in percentage GNP per year at 13%, and we get blamed for not doing enough. You be the judge.
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby virgincrude » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 14:59:31

Quinny:
This idea that America is somehow the worlds caretaker with some kind of benevolent idea that they are helping to feed all the world's poor and downtrodden is unbelievable. If it wasn't so funny it'd make me angry


I agree. But it looks like it will take some persuading to get others to see it the same way! :(


The Myth of Western Aid

The story of Western aid to the Third World needs to be demystified. Western populations almost universally believe that the story of Western aid is of massive transfers of aid to poor Third World countries for purely altruistic reasons. They know that much of this aid has not resulted in successful development. But many believe that this is not the fault of the West. It is true that there is a huge scandal of corruption on Western aid that is waiting to be exposed. However, if and when this story is fully exposed, it is the West that will be deeply embarrassed. The full story will show that the wide-held belief of altruistic Western aid is nothing but a myth.

-----

The Organisation of Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) was set up in 1961 to assist countries in economic development and sustainable economic growth. By any objective standards, the OECD has failed in its mission. Still, the West continues to spend € 342.9 million a year maintaining an expensive secretariat in Paris, which produces excellent research papers but achieves little in delivering results on its core mission. The OECD has more than enough bureaucratic and academic resources to carry out such an audit. But it would not even dream of doing so for it will be killed by its own Western paymasters for attempting such an audit. Nor will anyone in the West have the courage to state another obvious truth: after having failed in its core mission, the OECD has clearly become a “sunset” organisation. Its disappearance will have no impact on the developing world.
Western aid does not go to the poorest or neediest countries. It goes to those countries which support the foreign-policy agendas of the donor countries. Take American aid, for example. OECD estimates show that on a per capita basis, American aid is the lowest among the OECD countries. But even the relatively little amount that America gives goes only to select countries, like Israel or Egypt even though Israel is a developed country. In recent years, Israel has received between $ 2.5 to 3 billion annually in US aid (Sharp, 2007) – and that is more than what all of sub-Saharan Africa gets.
- Western countries do not hesitate to pull the plug if any recipient country fails to support their foreign policy agenda. Many African countries signed on to the International Criminal Court (ICC) statute because Africa clearly needed the ICC process. But when some African countries took a principled stand and refused to sign the side agreement to exempt American nationals from ICC prosecution, America threatened to cut off, and in some cases actually withheld, foreign aid. Altruism never featured in these deliberations.


It is easy to find information revealing the truth of the myth of US aid, how it is mis spent on arms, and on lining the pockets of burocrats at the receiving end, how it is always aimed at regimes in order to boulster their pro-US policies and 'enhance' trade and so on.

It is surprising how people can come to PO and accept, or at least open their eyes to the incredible ongoing cover-up of the enormity of the problem, yet are unnable to uncover other, equally damaging truths relating to subjects such as US policy and practice world wide ...... :cry:
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby Quinny » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 20:47:21

13% of GNP - really.

Does this include US foreign aid to Chile or Vietnam?


Itsallcomindown wrote:Why don't you explain what you mean Quinny. I would like to hear about how the U.S. doesn't donate more money to the U.N. than any other country, and doesn't get lambasted for it because it doesn't meet the required percentage of donor GNP set forth by the U.N. The fact is you can't because the U.S. donates 13.29 billion dollars, which is more foreign aid by 4 billion dollars than Japan, the next highest donor at 9.28 billion. In fact the U.S. , Japan, and France(the 3rd highest donor at 5.49 billion) combine to donate more foreign aid than all the other countries combined. Despite this fact the U.S. donates the least amount in percentage GNP per year at 13%, and we get blamed for not doing enough. You be the judge.
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Re: Bolivia Tiene Muchas Problemas

Unread postby threadbear » Tue 16 Sep 2008, 20:52:00

Cashmere wrote:Linky Link Link Link
President Evo Morales struggled to assert control over a badly fractured Bolivia on Sunday as protesters set fire to a town hall and blockaded highways in opposition-controlled provinces, provoking gasoline and food shortages.

Why is it that I think that the phrase, "gas and food shortages" is going to spread like the plague around this world in the next decade?


Ah yes, with the help of the invisible hand of the market, the CIA.
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After the Massacre in Bolivia

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 18 Sep 2008, 17:43:24

The massacre in El Porvenir was the worst in Bolivia since right-wing President Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada presided over the slaughter of more than 70 unarmed protestors in October 2003. This time, however, the violence was not orchestrated by the central government, but by regional officials: departmental prefects in league with civic committees. Administratively organized similar to France, Bolivia is divided into nine departments, each run by a prefect, while civic committees are made up of a handful of unelected, local, commercial-landed elites who preside over one of the most unequal distributions of land and wealth in the world. These public- and private-sector authorities, in turn, are allied with cypto-fascist paramilitary youth gangs armed with baseball bats, clubs, chains, guns, and in the case of the massacre at El Porvenir, official vehicles. These groups have made Bolivia’s eastern lowlands ungovernable for the Morales administration.

It may be helpful for U.S. readers to consider Bolivia’s eastern lowlands as analogous to Dixie. In the 1950s and 60s, working with governors and mayors of states and localities, white supremacist paramilitary groups terrorized African Americans. The campaign of terror was intended to preserve a status quo that benefited a tiny class of wealthy white landowners, against which the federal government—under Eisenhower and Kennedy—hesitated to act.

Imagine, though, that African Americans had comprised an overwhelming majority of the U.S. population, that Kennedy was Black, and that he had come to power on the back of serial insurrections led by African Americans. Imagine that, in response, white supremacists not only massacred Blacks, but also blockaded roads, blew up oil pipelines, and burned and looted federal government offices and installations.

The limits of the analogy with the Jim Crow south are significant, but another analogy—from a century earlier, the 1850s and 60s—transcends them. The southern secessionist movement sought to preserve the republic of slavery and extend it through the west to the Pacific. The movement mobilized a mass following and mounted an armed challenge to the federal government. Such analogies help convey the virulence of what one commentator has labeled a “revolt of the rich,” as well as the scope of the challenge posed by a wealthy white minority to a government backed by a majority of workers and campesinos of Indian descent, a government without historical precedent.
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Re: After the Massacre in Bolivia

Unread postby dissident » Sun 21 Sep 2008, 07:59:43

When the US sponsors secessionist militants it is in the name of goodness. When the Ossetian and Abkhazian people strive for self-determination they are "criminals and terrorists" because Bush loves Saakashvili. America is the land of hypocrisy and bloody interventionism. It is the fault of the American people for living in a bubble so that they can't even find most of the places their two-party regime attacks on a map.
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Re: After the Massacre in Bolivia

Unread postby ReverseEngineer » Sun 21 Sep 2008, 08:37:11

dissident wrote:When the US sponsors secessionist militants it is in the name of goodness. When the Ossetian and Abkhazian people strive for self-determination they are "criminals and terrorists" because Bush loves Saakashvili. America is the land of hypocrisy and bloody interventionism. It is the fault of the American people for living in a bubble so that they can't even find most of the places their two-party regime attacks on a map.


This bubble is rapidly deflating. In fact it has popped, though some won't acknowledge it yet. At any rate, its coming to a Theatre Near You, sooner than even the King of Doom thought possible.

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