Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 23 Jul 2015, 17:42:20

isgota, Thanks for your input here. The fossil fools don't want to know about new enzymes or any new innovation. They will mislead you.

GJ, I can't understand why you are so gullible. Didn't you see Carnot was trying to defend the FF industry by listing how life would be different? Then he has the audacity to tell us that the worst outcome of fossil fuels is that they allowed our population to expand. Oh no it isn't the worst outcome. Total extinction of all life on the planet is the worst. That's where we are heading right now.

I will only accept the conclusions in the Lux report:

Renewable diesel producers Neste Oil and Diamond Green Diesel, gasification specialist Red Rock Biofuels, and Edeniq, which makes cellulosic ethanol, were among 13 producers of alternative fuels best positioned to compete with cheap oil, according a report from Lux Research.


BTW, it's not cut and paste, it's copy and paste. If this annoys you so much, I will continue to paste the same so-called "nonsense". It is this because you don't like to read the content.

Building on over 2,000 scientific studies and major assessments, this 700-page e-publication outlines how:

● Development of bioenergy can replenish a community’s food supply by improving management practices and land soil quality
● New technologies can provide communities with food security, fuel, economic and social development while effectively using water, nutrients and other resources
● The use of bioenergy, if done thoughtfully, can actually help lower air and water pollution
● Bioenergy initiatives monitored and implemented, hand in hand with good governance, can protect biodiversity, and provide ecosystems services
● Efficiency gains and sustainable practices of recent bioenergy systems can help contribute to a low-carbon economy by decreasing greenhouse gas emissions and assisting carbon mitigation efforts
● With current knowledge and projected improvements 30% of the world’s fuel supply could be biobased by 2050


Brazil Raizen to build more cellulose ethanol plants after 2017 -CEO

Brazil's Raizen said it plans to start building additional cellulose ethanol plants after production costs for the second generation biofuel become competitive with conventional ethanol costs, Chief Executive Vasco Dias said on Wednesday.

Raizen, a joint venture between local conglomerate Cosan SA and Royal-Dutch Shell Plc, inaugurated its first second-generation biofuel plant in Piracicaba.

The plant currently produces cellulosic ethanol at about 1.40 reais a liter, compared with 1.15 reais/ltr for conventional ethanol. Cellulosic ethanol costs are expected to converge on conventional costs in 2017 and drop below them in 2018, Raizen executives said.


reuters
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby davep » Fri 24 Jul 2015, 03:48:57

These plants would have to service in a world without fossil fuels from field to wheel. That means all the inputs would have to come from biofuels.


Or some inputs can be bypassed by avoiding chemical fertiliser etc. And use an old tractor (that gets rid of half of Pimentel's embedded energy costs). Or use perennials to avoid almost all inputs (e.g. chestnuts). Given alcohol (for example) only extracts stuff made from water and C02, the rest of the nutrients stay put (or are used by other processes) meaning there is no net loss of fertility over time due to the alcohol extraction so long as the rest stays on-site.

And remember, yields from small intensive market garden operations are far higher per unit volume than in conventional farms. If we're imagining a post-fossil fuel agriculture, I don't think huge green revolution annual monocropping will remain the norm. It's only the most efficient in terms of cost, where energy is cheap and labour is expensive.
What we think, we become.
User avatar
davep
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
 
Posts: 4578
Joined: Wed 21 Jun 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Europe

Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 18:22:27

Policy: Define biomass sustainability

The bioeconomy is rising up the political agenda. More than 30 countries have announced that they will boost production of renewable resources from biological materials and convert them into products such as food, animal feed and bioenergy. Non-food crops, such as switchgrass (Panicum virgatum), are the main focus, as well as agricultural and forestry residues and waste materials and gases.

It is one thing to write a report; it is another to put a plan into action sustainably. The biggest conundrum is reconciling the conflicting needs of agriculture and industry. In a post-fossil-fuel world, an increasing proportion of chemicals, plastics, textiles, fuels and electricity will have to come from biomass, which takes up land. By 2050, the world will also need to produce 50–70% more food1, increasingly under drought conditions and on poor soils.


nature
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby lpetrich » Tue 16 Feb 2016, 13:07:10

Carnot wrote:But is has also provided us with many of the things we take for granted. Think how different life would be if we did not have fossil fuels:

No clean drinking water
No means of travel other than by foot, horse or some wind powered device.
No continuous electricity supply
No space heating
No internet
No wind power
No pv power
No hydro power
No biofuels (yes that is the reality)
Very limited choice of foods
Very limited health care

Need I go on, because the list is endless. What can and will your green fuel alternatives provide in the future. Very little indeed, because most of it, if it ever materialises, will be consumed in production. Either a limited at best, or a net negative energy gain.

As if only fossil fuels can possibly make such things possible. Is that a law of nature?

Does anyone have any good numbers about the EROEI and fuel per unit land for biofuels? Either actual numbers or projected ones. Also, how much of the energy input can feasibly be supplied by non-biofuel renewable sources. I think that renewable-source electricity generation is a largely solved problem, so the larger fraction of electricity the better. One can run Haber-Bosch nitrogen fixing entirely off of electricity if one chooses, for instance.
User avatar
lpetrich
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu 22 Jun 2006, 03:00:00

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby americandream » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 23:20:35

Scientists have made a huge leap in lessening our dependence on fossil fuels, managing to break down raw biomass without using chemicals for the very first time. The result was record high amounts of clean liquid hydrocarbon fuel, according to a new study.

https://www.rt.com/news/337785-biomass- ... els-study/
americandream
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 8650
Joined: Mon 18 Oct 2004, 03:00:00

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 07:38:42

"Small particles of Platinum...." Chemicals which aren't chemicals? This article reeks.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9284
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Subjectivist » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 08:31:26

americandream wrote:Scientists have made a huge leap in lessening our dependence on fossil fuels, managing to break down raw biomass without using chemicals for the very first time. The result was record high amounts of clean liquid hydrocarbon fuel, according to a new study.

https://www.rt.com/news/337785-biomass- ... els-study/


First, we don't have enough biomass to replace current fossil fuel demand. Second, heating and pressurizing this soul of biomass and metal catalysts takes a lot of energy, so is this process even energy positive?
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Subjectivist
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4700
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 07:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby americandream » Thu 31 Mar 2016, 16:48:43

Subjectivist wrote:
americandream wrote:Scientists have made a huge leap in lessening our dependence on fossil fuels, managing to break down raw biomass without using chemicals for the very first time. The result was record high amounts of clean liquid hydrocarbon fuel, according to a new study.

https://www.rt.com/news/337785-biomass- ... els-study/


First, we don't have enough biomass to replace current fossil fuel demand. Second, heating and pressurizing this soul of biomass and metal catalysts takes a lot of energy, so is this process even energy positive?


Haven't a clue mate. Put it out there to see what the more informed had to say about this.
americandream
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 8650
Joined: Mon 18 Oct 2004, 03:00:00

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby vox_mundi » Wed 02 Nov 2016, 16:17:02

Fuel from sewage is the future – and it's closer than you think

Image

Video - The technology, hydrothermal liquefaction, mimics the geological conditions the Earth uses to create crude oil, using high pressure and temperature to achieve in minutes something that takes Mother Nature millions of years. The resulting material is similar to petroleum pumped out of the ground, with a small amount of water and oxygen mixed in. This biocrude can then be refined using conventional petroleum refining operations.

Wastewater treatment plants across the U.S. treat approximately 34 billion gallons of sewage every day. That amount could produce the equivalent of up to approximately 30 million barrels of oil per year. PNNL estimates that a single person could generate two to three gallons of biocrude per year.

Sewage, or more specifically sewage sludge, has long been viewed as a poor ingredient for producing biofuel because it's too wet. The approach being studied by PNNL eliminates the need for drying required in a majority of current thermal technologies which historically has made wastewater to fuel conversion too energy intensive and expensive. HTL may also be used to make fuel from other types of wet organic feedstock, such as agricultural waste.

In addition to producing useful fuel, HTL could give local governments significant cost savings by virtually eliminating the need for sewage residuals processing, transport and disposal.

"The best thing about this process is how simple it is," said Drennan. "The reactor is literally a hot, pressurized tube. We've really accelerated hydrothermal conversion technology over the last six years to create a continuous, and scalable process which allows the use of wet wastes like sewage sludge."

In addition to the biocrude, the liquid phase can be treated with a catalyst to create other fuels and chemical products. A small amount of solid material is also generated, which contains important nutrients. For example, early efforts have demonstrated the ability to recover phosphorus, which can replace phosphorus ore used in fertilizer production.

An independent assessment for the Water Environment & Reuse Foundation calls HTL a highly disruptive technology that has potential for treating wastewater solids. WE&RF investigators noted the process has high carbon conversion efficiency with nearly 60 percent of available carbon in primary sludge becoming bio-crude. The report calls for further demonstration, which may soon be in the works.

PNNL has licensed its HTL technology to Utah-based Genifuel Corporation, which is now working with Metro Vancouver, a partnership of 23 local authorities in British Columbia, Canada, to build a demonstration plant.

"Metro Vancouver hopes to be the first wastewater treatment utility in North America to host hydrothermal liquefaction at one of its treatment plants," said Darrell Mussatto, chair of Metro Vancouver's Utilities Committee. "The pilot project will cost between $8 to $9 million (Canadian) with Metro Vancouver providing nearly one-half of the cost directly and the remaining balance subject to external funding."

Once funding is in place, Metro Vancouver plans to move to the design phase in 2017, followed by equipment fabrication, with start-up occurring in 2018.

"If this emerging technology is a success, a future production facility could lead the way for Metro Vancouver's wastewater operation to meet its sustainability objectives of zero net energy, zero odours and zero residuals," Mussatto added.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late.
User avatar
vox_mundi
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3939
Joined: Wed 27 Sep 2006, 03:00:00

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby StarvingLion » Wed 02 Nov 2016, 22:32:01

British Columbia is a shit hole. They will end up eating their own shit.

They even have the most ridiculous joke of a fusion "company" going....

General Fusion is a Canadian company based in Burnaby, British Columbia, which was created for the development of fusion power based on magnetized target fusion. As of 2015 they were developing subsystems for use in a prototype to be built later
Outcast_Searcher is a fraud.
StarvingLion
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 2612
Joined: Sat 03 Aug 2013, 18:59:17

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby eclipse » Thu 05 Jan 2017, 22:59:59

pstarr wrote:
Video - The technology, hydrothermal liquefaction, mimics the geological conditions the Earth uses to create crude oil, using high pressure and temperature to achieve in minutes something that takes Mother Nature millions of years.

Otherwise known as thermodepolymerization>Fischer-Tropsch: has been tried (on turkey guts, human waste etc.) and failed to return a net-positive energy. The high-pressure and temperature are generated by burning COAL or PETROLEUM . . . so why not just use COAL and PETROLEUM?

There's that EROEI bugaboo . . . always ruining the techies fun. Bastards :(


Unless you're using fission, which has an EROEI of 75, or breeder reactors like the IFR or MSR, which recycle fuel and do away with the very high energy cost of mining and refining uranium. In that case you're talking about getting 60 to 90 times the energy out of the fuel, and possibly getting an EROEI in the hundreds, maybe even approaching a thousand according to some papers I've read! We're just lucky that the atomic bonds in uranium deliver 2 MILLION times the energy of the poor old chemical bonds in petroleum.

With NREL saying today's night-time spare capacity could charge about half the American fleet, and with robot-cabs on the way that will reduce taxi-cab costs by eliminating the driver's salary and be so cheap it at least halves today's car fleet over time as individual car ownership dies and corporations rush to supply us not with car-as-a-product but transport-as-a-service, then ground transport is solved by EV's, maybe with some boron powder recycled as an energy carrier thrown in for good measure (and truckin', at least according to Dr James Hansen). The chief technology adviser for Telstra (Australian telco) has advised that he thinks making human driving illegal by 2030 is not only possible, but desirable! Just chew on that for a moment! The implications for individual car ownership and energy models are immense. We may not have to build 2 billion cars, but 'only' 200 million.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/

I think the eventual EV (and possibly boron) take over is now inevitable. My main concern is how to clean up international shipping fuel and airlines? With a high enough front end EROEI, what back-end process is going to be the cheapest? And what other climate-sequestering industries are going to emerge, especially if they have other side benefits?

Biologist, climate champion, and former Australian of the year Dr Tim Flannery has suggested massive kelp farms could sequester all our CO2 emissions each year. "“Seaweed grows at 30 to 60 times the rate of land-based plants, so it can draw out lots of CO2,” Flannery told E360 in a recent interview." ...
“If you cover 9% of the world’s oceans in seaweed farms, you could draw down the equivalent of all our current emissions — more than 40 gigatons a year.” ... Seaweed farms can also reverse ocean acidification. Off the coast of China, there are about 500 square kilometers of seaweed farms producing edible seaweed for the food market. PH levels have been shown to rise as high as 10 around these seaweed farms. At the moment with an acidified ocean it is 8.1. ... You could buffer oceans,” he said. “They are fantastic places for growing fish, shellfish, or prawns, just because of that buffering impact.”
goo.gl/n6iFdG

What are the implications?
1. This could grow into a massive industry to reverse ocean acidification & climate change
2. Huge producer of food, through seaweed itself, associated fish, shellfish & prawn production
3. Seaweed can be fed to cows, which has been shown to reduce their methane burps close to zero https://goo.gl/J27gw0
4. Massive amounts of non-farmland carbon-neutral biomass to replace niche liquid fuel markets like airline fuels
5. (As a fan of breeder reactors that eat nuclear waste, I see most land transport coming from nuclear powered electricity. This will be via trains, trams, trolley buses and robot-taxi-cabs charged mainly on existing night-time spare electricity supply. As already mentioned, Robot taxi-cabs could reduce individual car ownership to 10% of today's, and NREL have calculated that 50% of the American fleet could be charged at night.)
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
6. When washed, this could become a massive source of fertilisers for farming
7. Also a massive source of biomass for biochar, to permanently store away carbon and enrich our farmlands at the same time, rather than being a biomass scam that destroys our farmlands.
8. In summary, it could restore the oceans, farmlands, food supplies, and industrial sustainability of certain niche liquid fuels markets all in one massive hit!
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
User avatar
eclipse
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri 04 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Sydney

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby eclipse » Fri 06 Jan 2017, 01:41:03

All right, I'll sumarise:
1. If we assume nuclear power is going to do the bulk of electricity
2. Trains, trams, trolley buses and EV's are going to do the bulk of land transport
3. EROEI from nuclear is high enough to process whatever synthetic fuel we need to crank up or process from biomass, sewerage, or just cracking water to get hydrogen... then....
4. We 'only' need to replace shipping fuel and airline fuel!

So, what if we grow enough kelp in the oceans to replace those?
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
User avatar
eclipse
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri 04 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Sydney

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby eclipse » Fri 06 Jan 2017, 23:28:00

That's what I've been trying to say. If high EROEI nuclear is the backbone of our power system and the backbone of an electric transport system (trains, trams, trolley buses and EV's), then there's more than enough biomass (including sewerage, forestry off-cuts, etc) to do niche liquid fuel markets.

Semi related to this topic from a petro-chemical feedstock perspective is Plasma Burners that can recycle EVERYTHING in your local tip into useful building and construction and petro-chemical feedstock by prodcuts. Once Plasma Burners become cheap enough, it's the end of landfill tips, and the start of converting old jogging shoes, lawn clippings, asbestos sheets, sunglasses and a thousand other bits of plastic and soiled nappies/diapers all into useful stuff again!
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recycle/
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
User avatar
eclipse
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri 04 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Sydney

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby eclipse » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 07:24:17

So the problem is we need a cubic mile of oil a year, or a cube 1.6km on a side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubic_mile_of_oil

Tim Flannery has suggested kelp as a CO2 sequestering mechanism, where 9% of the oceans are gargantuan kelp farms, probably with robotised harvesting systems, and this soaks up 40GT of Co2 a year.

40GT per year is 10 times the oil refined in 2008.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/265 ... tric-tons/

The real problem, though, is if we're trying to sequester kelp farms the size of 9% of the ocean's, where do we put it all? We've already seen that we're burning just 10% for oil! (I'm seriously weirded out thinking of biomass as an oil replacement! I gave that up years ago!) What to do with the other 90%? Apparently it works out to about just under a cubic km of dried fibre every week!

What about biochar to help sequester CO2 in farmland soils?

What about to cows to feed them and eliminate their methane burps?
Indeed, if it can feed all our cows, and they don't need grass or other supplements but can live of kelp? (I don't know!?) Then it could reduce their grazing impact on the environment as well. I wonder what other ruminants basically just need biomass that their 4 stomachs can break down? Goats? Sheep?

If we could harvest 9% of the world's oceans in kelp, the world's oil multinationals would be saved. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth, as I had hoped electric transport would clear up the air over our cities.
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
User avatar
eclipse
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri 04 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Sydney

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 09:06:13

eclipse wrote:So the problem is we need a cubic mile of oil a year, or a cube 1.6km on a side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubic_mile_of_oil

Tim Flannery has suggested kelp as a CO2 sequestering mechanism, where 9% of the oceans are gargantuan kelp farms, probably with robotised harvesting systems, and this soaks up 40GT of Co2 a year.

40GT per year is 10 times the oil refined in 2008.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/265 ... tric-tons/

The real problem, though, is if we're trying to sequester kelp farms the size of 9% of the ocean's, where do we put it all? We've already seen that we're burning just 10% for oil! (I'm seriously weirded out thinking of biomass as an oil replacement! I gave that up years ago!) What to do with the other 90%? Apparently it works out to about just under a cubic km of dried fibre every week!

What about biochar to help sequester CO2 in farmland soils?

What about to cows to feed them and eliminate their methane burps?
Indeed, if it can feed all our cows, and they don't need grass or other supplements but can live of kelp? (I don't know!?) Then it could reduce their grazing impact on the environment as well. I wonder what other ruminants basically just need biomass that their 4 stomachs can break down? Goats? Sheep?

If we could harvest 9% of the world's oceans in kelp, the world's oil multinationals would be saved. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth, as I had hoped electric transport would clear up the air over our cities.

Before you worry about which nine percent of the worlds oceans to convert to kelp farms you might try a single square mile somewhere easy and prove the concept start to finish. Kelp taking CO2 out of the water is simple enough but how you keep the carbon from re entering the atmosphere and how that saves any oil or oil companies is not clear.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby eclipse » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 17:25:34

vtsnowedin wrote:Before you worry about which nine percent of the worlds oceans to convert to kelp farms you might try a single square mile somewhere easy and prove the concept start to finish. Kelp taking CO2 out of the water is simple enough but how you keep the carbon from re entering the atmosphere and how that saves any oil or oil companies is not clear.

Today's seaweed is farmed for food additives and sushi.
In a study conducted by the Philippines it showed that plots of approximately one hectare can have a net income from eucheuma farming that was 5 to 6 times that of the minimum average wage of an agriculture worker. In the same study they also saw an increase in seaweed exports from 675 metric tons (MT) in 1967 to 13,191 MT in 1980, which doubled to 28,000 MT by 1988.[12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaweed_farming

Tim Flannery is talking about expanding that to 40,000,000,000 MT. We already farm 2.5 MILLION tons. But this would give us 40 cubic kilometres of woody waste to dispose of each year. We already know how to biochar any dried biomass waste. 40 cubic kilometres into a biochar unit would produce maybe 20 cubic km of biochar and 20 cubic km of synthetic gas to replace petroleum and natural gas? Gosh that's a lot, and makes renewable energy look viable! Solar during the day, seaweed syngas at night. We could use just a fraction of the 20 cubic km as biochar for soil remediation (which it does great, but tends to break down in a half life cycle of about 80 years). But to truly sequester CO2 long term, we'd have to bury it deep. Where? Can we put biochar in an industrial compressor, maybe with a little concrete powder, and plop it back in the ocean to sink down deep?
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
User avatar
eclipse
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri 04 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Sydney

PreviousNext

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests