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THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby davep » Sat 11 Jul 2015, 04:15:05

How many cattle per acre on this "grazing land"? If it's that arid, the cattle density per unit area will be tiny. So your starvation jibe is comes across as a bit hyperbolic in that context.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby davep » Sat 11 Jul 2015, 05:29:14

pstarr wrote:
davep wrote:How many cattle per acre on this "grazing land"? If it's that arid, the cattle density per unit area will be tiny. So your starvation jibe is comes across as a bit hyperbolic in that context.
You don't understand davep. Grazing land is grazing land because crops don't grow on it, no soil no water, wrong inclination wrong drainage wrong place. So in order to do what Graeme wants done, water and fertilizer and heavy equipment would be required. That is dumb and criminal.


The grazing levels are minuscule, so your original comment was indeed hyperbolic. And there are crops that can grow in arid conditions without extra water etc, but they couldn't be intensively farmed. I have no idea what the yields would be though.

To be honest, they'd be better off trying to get drought-resistant perennials planted anyway, whether some is used for fuel or not, in an effort to improve the arid lands. Grazing just inhibits growth of any potential locally-adapted perennials.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 11 Jul 2015, 10:03:57

davep wrote:
pstarr wrote:
davep wrote:How many cattle per acre on this "grazing land"? If it's that arid, the cattle density per unit area will be tiny. So your starvation jibe is comes across as a bit hyperbolic in that context.
You don't understand davep. Grazing land is grazing land because crops don't grow on it, no soil no water, wrong inclination wrong drainage wrong place. So in order to do what Graeme wants done, water and fertilizer and heavy equipment would be required. That is dumb and criminal.


The grazing levels are minuscule, so your original comment was indeed hyperbolic. And there are crops that can grow in arid conditions without extra water etc, but they couldn't be intensively farmed. I have no idea what the yields would be though.

To be honest, they'd be better off trying to get drought-resistant perennials planted anyway, whether some is used for fuel or not, in an effort to improve the arid lands. Grazing just inhibits growth of any potential locally-adapted perennials.


It depends Dave, most desert ecosystems are the same web of life as any prairie or forest, they just have fewer members in the web. When Dromedary camels were imported to Texas they did great, the humans let them forage and they did just fine. After the Civil War the camel cavalry was disbanded and they were turned loose and that was when the trouble started. The camels were desert adapted so they out competed the cattle in the open range, and because the ranchers hunted out the large predators to protect the cattle they had a miniature population explosion. If the ranchers had managed the camel population right from the start everything would have been fine, but once they were free to breed in the wild and lacked natural predators as always there were problems.

Anyhow the Camels being desert adapted ate a wide range of plant species that grew naturally while the cattle were much more particular about what they ate. In either case overpopulation lead to problems, but with the open range practices in Texas the ranchers just kept the cattle moving around a lot. Most of that area now has a very fractured plant web because the cattle in large herds were not what the environment was adapted to support. They also did there best to eliminate the wild camels that were better adapted than their cattle. The best solution would be to herd desert adapted animals like Camels, but the culture is fixated on Cattle so that is what they do. If you want to restore the land to a stable natural grazing land you have to convince people to eat Camel burgers and steaks, then the ranchers will switch over and Voile'
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Sat 11 Jul 2015, 18:42:55

USDA Energy Biomass Retrieval Incentives underway

The USDA Farm Service Agency (FSA) will begin accepting applications on June 30, 2015, from foresters and farmers seeking financial assistance to harvest and deliver biomass to generate clean energy. The support comes through the Biomass Crop Assistance Program (BCAP), which was re-authorized by the 2014 Farm Bill.

For 2015, USDA has reserved up to $11.5 million to assist with the cost of removing woody or herbaceous residues from farm fields or national forests and woodlands for delivery to energy generation facilities. A majority of the funds are expected to support the removal of dead or diseased trees from National Forest and Bureau of Land Management public lands. Orchard wastes, and agriculture residues such as corn cobs and stalks, also qualify as energy-producing feedstock.

To be eligible for the retrieval incentives, the biomass must be delivered to FSA-approved biomass conversion facilities. For a list of approved facilities, visit fsa.usda.gov/bcap.


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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Graeme » Sun 12 Jul 2015, 21:14:10

Not so, according to report (Bioenergy & sustainability: bridging the gaps) I quoted above (see page 270).

By 2050, 1.2 Gha of remaining land could be considered as available for other uses including bioenergy feedstock production (Table 9.5). This can be compared to the estimate by WWF/Ecofys/OMA (2011) of 0.7 Gha of available land using more conservative assumptions. This available land is assumed to come exclusively from pasture lands where there is enormous potential for increased efficiency and intensification of livestock production.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby sparky » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 03:40:19

.
Graeme
" you and Carnot have zero credibility to my mind " are you saying the Carnot equations are wrong ?
are you doubting your own mind ..... a worthy endeavor by any measure

please do go on !, I would be very interested in any ( peer reviewed ) article
or , alternatively , your thread is to be understood as an over the top rant ,for the purpose of making a far fetched point.
and coming from a fellow blogger with scant grasp of thermodynamics
I would assume your grasp of science and technology is on a par with your understanding of economics
I've heard Greece is recruiting for their new growth industry , sewing sow ears into silk purses
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Carnot » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 06:59:59

Graeme,

As you have assumed the role expert in the field of biofuels, an expert status comes with some responsibilities.Any post from pstarr or myself is immediately replied with a cut and paste from some biofuel publication that has an interest in promoting biofuels. Both pstarr and myself have offered quite reasonable critiques of the claims of these submissions, sometimes with long explanations of our own original work and links to other works by "experts" in the field. Personally I dislike the term expert because there is no standard for an expert.

You recently repeated your view that pstarr and myself have zero credibility in your eyes yet to date have offered no evidence to prove your assertation. I am sure pstarr, and certainly myself, would dearly love to see how you have arrived at this view and I would ask that you provide original work , supported by links to data, that disprove our doubts. I have taken the time to provide a detailed estimate on numerous occasions as to the thermodynamic limitations of biofuels. You have never replied with specific questions or a informed rebuttal of my work. You have merely replied with "you lack credibility" or a cut and paste from some biofuel publication that has a vested interest.

This forum is a forum on Peak Oil and the challenges that this entails. I take it seriously and over the past 15 years have researched the options especially the alternatives. By looking at the thermodynamic issues with biofuels I quite rightly cam to the conclusion that it is not going to be an option for a world with 7 billion people and rising, and will probabaly not be an option for even 1 billion people.

Please, a well thought and original reply rather than one of your cut and paste offerings. They really do lack credibility.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 17:28:41

On the contrary, they don't lack credibility. I've already quoted the FAA Center of Excellence report, which states that the aviation biofuel industry will grow. I've also quoted a extensive review of the entire biofuel industry by 137 bioenergy professionals who basically state the same. You state the opposite. You don't like cut and paste because the statements quoted conflict with your prejudice. You admit that you are a petroleum chemist (page 6 of this thread) so it is understandable that you find biofuels a threat to your industry and hence would attack it.

The report finds that land availability is not a limiting factor. Bioenergy can contribute to sustainable energy supplies even with increasing food demands, preservation of forests, protected lands, and rising urbanization. While it is projected that 50 to 200 million hectares would be needed to provide 10 to 20% of primary energy supply in 2050, available land that does not compromise the uses above is estimated to be at least 500 million hectares and possibly 900 million hectares if pasture intensification or water-scarce, marginal and degraded land is considered.


Here is a recent update on the production of ethanol by Lanzatech in Europe, which illustrates my point of a growing industry.

Belgian Steel Plant: We'll Make 50,000 Tons Of Ethanol From Byproduct

Even as world governments continue to encourage the production of biofuels, ethanol remains subject to particular criticism.

The highest-volume feedstocks for ethanol are still plants like corn or sugar cane, which take up farmland that in some cases could otherwise be used for food.

Which is why two companies have paired up to try to make large quantities of ethanol in a very different way.

ArcelorMittal--the world's largest steelmaker--plans to collaborate with a small New Zealand company called LanzaTech on a system that can turn carbon monoxide into ethanol.

The key is a microbe found in a rabbit's gut that can complete the seemingly unlikely transformation, according to the Financial Times (subscription required).

This system will be installed at ArcelorMittal's plant in Ghent, Belgium, later this year, at an estimated cost of 87 million euros ($96 million).


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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 18:46:31

I beg to differ. I'm quoting reputable scientific reports.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 00:16:24

Well how convenient. The book entitled " Bioenergy & sustainability: bridging the gaps" is published by SCOPE in France, edited by researchers from the University of São Paulo (Brazils most prestigious educational institution), and reviewed by experts from about 12 countries. That's reputable. And I suppose you are going to say that the major airlines are not reputable either. Image
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 08:45:55

An oldie but a goodie, someone in the writing group I belong to found this and was very excited.

(PhysOrg.com) -- A unique fungus that makes diesel compounds has been discovered living in trees in the rainforest, according to a paper published in the November issue of Microbiology. The fungus is potentially a totally new source of green energy and scientists are now working to develop its fuel producing potential.

http://phys.org/news/2008-11-rainforest ... iesel.html
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