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THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 18:32:05

Graeme wrote:I beg to differ. I'm quoting reputable scientific reports.
Yes. Those reports are reputable. As in bad reputation.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 21:18:28

Graeme, do you know what a reputable scientific report even looks like? Here's a hint: it should be based on peer-reviewed science published in a noted science journal (with a history of valid submissions), replete with methodology, references, and authored by competent specialists in the particular field. Science. (not-so) popular web-investor fronts do not count.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 23:16:24

Well how convenient. The book entitled " Bioenergy & sustainability: bridging the gaps" is published by SCOPE in France, edited by researchers from the University of São Paulo (Brazils most prestigious educational institution), and reviewed by experts from about 12 countries. That's reputable. And I suppose you are going to say that the major airlines are not reputable either. Image
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 01:33:08

Graeme wrote:Well how convenient. The book entitled " Bioenergy & sustainability: bridging the gaps" is published by SCOPE in France, edited by researchers from the University of São Paulo (Brazils most prestigious educational institution), and reviewed by experts from about 12 countries. That's reputable. And I suppose you are going to say that the major airlines are not reputable either. Image

Good for you Graeme. Straight out of wiki.
It is the largest Brazilian university and the country's most prestigious educational institution,
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 07:45:55

An oldie but a goodie, someone in the writing group I belong to found this and was very excited.

(PhysOrg.com) -- A unique fungus that makes diesel compounds has been discovered living in trees in the rainforest, according to a paper published in the November issue of Microbiology. The fungus is potentially a totally new source of green energy and scientists are now working to develop its fuel producing potential.

http://phys.org/news/2008-11-rainforest ... iesel.html
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 10:39:17

That's fun Tananda. Let's take the Way Back Machine to those early days before the doomers and oil-company flacks showed up to ruin rain on Graeme's parade of fun-facts.

Graeme really posted this in 2007 wrote:Box converts car fumes into biofuel

The world's richest corporations and finest minds spend billions trying to solve the problem of carbon emissions, but three fishing buddies in North Wales believe they have cracked it.

They have developed a box which they say can be fixed underneath a car in place of the exhaust to trap the greenhouse gases blamed for global warming — including carbon dioxide and nitrous oxide — and emit mostly water vapour.

The captured gases can be processed to create a biofuel using genetically modified algae.

Dubbed “Greenbox”, the technology developed by organic chemist Derek Palmer and engineers Ian Houston and John Jones could, they say, be used for cars, buses, lorries and eventually buildings and heavy industry, including power plants.

“We've managed to develop a way to successfully capture a majority of the emissions from the dirtiest motor we could find,” Palmer, who has consulted for organizations including the World Health Organisation and GlaxoSmithKline, said.

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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 18:14:59

Billion dollar plan to give UK world’s biggest biomass power station

MGT Power, a UK-based generator, has moved closer to obtaining the $975m it requires to construct a 300MW biomass plant in the north-east of England after Australian investment bank Macquarie Group agreed to raise funding and take an equity share in the project.

The scheme, which would be the biggest purely biomass burner in the world, is to be built at the Port of Tyne in north Teesside. It won planning consent in 2009 and was intended to begin on site in 2011 and complete by 2014. However, the project has been delayed by uncertainty over the UK government’s stance on biomass, which prevented MGT reaching financial close.

The Tees Renewable Energy Plant was one of eight schemes awarded a generation contract under the government’s Contracts for Difference scheme. This guarantees a preferential fixed price for energy and security of demand, but was subject to approval by the European Commission.


The plant will burn 2.5 million tonnes of woodchips a year, generating enough power for 300,000 homes – although most of the energy is in fact to be used for the Teesside chemical industry cluster.

The fuel will be obtained from sustainable sources in the US and Europe, and will have up to 82% lower carbon emissions than typical coal and gas-fired plants. It is estimated that the plant will save 32 million tonnes of carbon compared with a fossil fuel plant over its 30-year lifespan.


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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 18:18:53

How the Future of Biofuels Is Taking Shape

Global production of biofuels has surged over the past decade or so, with annual production climbing from approximately 10 billion liters in 2000 to nearly 80 billion liters in 2012. Much of this growth is being driven by governments’ increasing focus on alternate fuel sources in an effort to reduce the countries’ reliance on foreign oil. Demand for biofuels has been particularly strong to date in the U.S., the European Union and Latin America, and has accelerated markedly recently in China and India.

Biofuel production is led by the production of so-called first-generation biofuels, which are derived from crops that can also be used as food or feedstock. Bioethanol, which is made from biomass (including sugar cane, sugar beets, maize and wheat), accounts for approximately 70% of first-generation biofuel production. Biodiesel, which is made from vegetable oils (primarily rapeseed, soybean and palm oils), accounts for approximately 30%.

Although first-generation biofuels have been hailed as a viable alternative fuel source, their production has met some controversy, particularly regarding the effects on the food and feed markets. Concerns about the effects of first-generation production on food prices, specifically, were particularly high in 2007, when grain prices reached an all-time peak. Those concerns have persisted, particularly with regard to the potential food-price effects of first-generation biofuel production on developing countries. Concerns have also been raised about the impact of first-generation production on land use and food security.

In response to these concerns, governments and companies have begun to push the development of second- and third-generation biofuels, which are derived from resources (including waste biomass, certain vegetable oils, animal fats, lignocellulose and algae) that cannot be used alternatively as food. The European Union, for example, is trying to promote development by establishing a 7% blending cap for first-generation biofuels and a 0.5% blending target for second-generation biofuels in 2020. Second- and third-generation biofuels are not fully price competitive with first-generation biofuels today, although some (mainly lignocellulosic bioethanol and some advanced biodiesels) are expected to become competitive within the 2020 to 2030 span.


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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 21:09:36

No comment.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Carnot » Wed 15 Jul 2015, 13:09:58

More world class BS. Cellulosic ethanol expected to be competitive by 2020-2030. It was supposed to be competitive 100 years ago. In 2008 it was ready to go. In 2015 there is virtually no significant production, and those plants that are running operating well below capacity. It was not competitive 100 years ago, it is not competitive now, and it will not be competitive in 2030. It is a net energy loss.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 15 Jul 2015, 14:39:33

This from David Pimentel and Tad W. Patzek's paper in Natural Resources Research, Vol. 14, No. 1, March 2005. The paper analyzed the embodied process energy to convert both switchgrass (and wood cellulose) into ethanol fuel.

However, converting switchgrass into ethanol results in a negative energy return (Table 4). The negative energy return is 50% or slightly higher than the
negative energy return for corn ethanol production (Tables 2 and 4). The cost of producing a liter of ethanol using switchgrass was 54c/ or 9c/ higher than the 45c/ per l for corn ethanol production (Tables 2 and 4).

Incidentally this paper is perhaps the first to even attempt the complex study of net-energy analysis. There was no interest until the ethanol issue was drug up by GW Bush and his friends at ADM back in the early 2000's.

When petroleum flowed copiously and freely under its own water/gas drives it was essentially free and there was no need to consider alternatives. Certainly not the energy-cost of extraction, the eroei. Even a crappy oil eroei of 5 (ultra deep, tar sands) has a ROI of 75%. You only looked at competitive costs and market supply. Political control and over-supply issues were relevant. Now that folks see the end of oil, they want to find a substitute. And folk discuss eroie without doing the hard work of actually measuring embodied process energy directly. They come up with weird models, like Hall and Cleveland. Read a first-order analysis, try Pimentel.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 15 Jul 2015, 17:04:33

Carnot wrote:More world class BS. Cellulosic ethanol expected to be competitive by 2020-2030. It was supposed to be competitive 100 years ago. In 2008 it was ready to go. In 2015 there is virtually no significant production, and those plants that are running operating well below capacity. It was not competitive 100 years ago, it is not competitive now, and it will not be competitive in 2030. It is a net energy loss.


Hardly convincing. Where's your source? Here is the reality:

Waste-Based Biofuels Going Into United Passenger Planes This Summer

The days of “sustainability” meaning “biofuels made from conventionally-grown corn and soybeans” are long behind us — thank goodness — but many researchers (and energy companies) are still exploring ways to clean up the fuel that goes into our transportation. Sustainablog‘s Talancia Pea came across one experiment that’s well underway: United Airlines has partnered with a company developing biofuels from food and farm wastes. The airline will be testing a blend of conventional and waste-based biofuel on passenger flights this Summer.


Sadly if American families continue throwing away food at the current rate, United will have no problem finding enough raw materials to produce its biofuels. The airline has 20-year collection agreements with municipal waste management companies, including Waste Management. Take a look at this infographic further explaining the cycle of how household and farm waste will become jet fuel here.

As United join ranks with Alaska Airlines, Southwest Airlines and British Airways to invest in the future, I think this move is ready for lift off! Biofuel production creates more jobs, reduce landfill waste and in turn better air quality and health for us all.


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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 15 Jul 2015, 18:19:48

World's largest shipment of biomass arrives at Immingham after 34-day journey

The world's largest ever single shipment of biomass has arrived at Immingham Docks after journeying from British Colombia.

It landed at the Humber International Terminal (HIT) at the Port of Immingham ready for onward transit to Drax power station at Selby, North Yorkshire.

Almost 60,000 tonnes of wood pellets were unloaded from the POPI S – the first time such cargo has been carried by a Panamax-class vessel.

The ship was loaded at the Westview Terminal in Prince Rupert, British Columbia on June 2, before making the 34-day journey to Immingham.


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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 15 Jul 2015, 18:26:50

Hey Graeme, your car runs on wood pellets? You know this is a peak oil website?
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby PeakOiler » Wed 15 Jul 2015, 18:32:44

Was the ship powered by wood pellets or wind? Probably not. Already an energy loser just transporting the pellets I suspect. Can anyone tell us about how much fuel the ship used?
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 15 Jul 2015, 18:49:49

PeakOiler wrote:Was the ship powered by wood pellets or wind? Probably not. Already an energy loser just transporting the pellets I suspect. Can anyone tell us about how much fuel the ship used?
The ship boiler is probably fired by bunker fuel, like most large vessels. The wood pellets are a cargo, destined for wood stoves. Last time I heard wood stoves are stationary.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby PeakOiler » Wed 15 Jul 2015, 19:05:33

pstarr wrote:
PeakOiler wrote:Was the ship powered by wood pellets or wind? Probably not. Already an energy loser just transporting the pellets I suspect. Can anyone tell us about how much fuel the ship used?
The ship boiler is probably fired by bunker fuel, like most large vessels. The wood pellets are a cargo, destined for wood stoves. Last time I heard wood stoves are stationary.

It would be an interesting math exercise to calculate how much energy was burned as bunker fuel by the ship vs. the wood chip cargo's energy value. Could a large cargo ship be converted to burn wood chips? Probably has been done once upon a time.

At any rate, the net energy returned is less for the wood having used all the bunker fuel to transport it.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 15 Jul 2015, 20:17:45

I imagine a ship boiler could be converted to inject wood pellets instead of fuel into the fire box. It generates heat and steam that turns a turbine. As for your question I imagine it would be similar to coal, as the pellets and the coal have similar densities and btu content
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 15 Jul 2015, 22:30:10

pstarr wrote:I imagine a ship boiler could be converted to inject wood pellets instead of fuel into the fire box. It generates heat and steam that turns a turbine. As for your question I imagine it would be similar to coal, as the pellets and the coal have similar densities and btu content


The problem with that is pretty basic. The ship in question is the Popi S, a motor vessel powered by a huge Diesel engines. Nearly ever merchant ship built in the last 20 years is Diesel engine, not steam.
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Re: Biomass Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 15 Jul 2015, 23:20:04

Sub, I stand corrected. In my defense I was merely trying to add a bit of conviviality to an otherwise idiotic thread.
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