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THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2(merged)

Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby ffkling » Sun 10 May 2015, 03:52:45

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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 10 May 2015, 12:36:12

Dude, you ARE the oppressive, over privileged guy.

My definition of racism is differentiate some group based upon a characteristic, not on their DNA. As in expressed in the Stanford Prison experiments. "Racisim" is only a subset of prejudice based upon some external differentiation. Black/White/Yellow/Rich/Poor/Heritage/Nationality....you name it, pick your axis of prejudice. If you discriminate, if you blame, if you vent hatred then you are racist.

If it makes you feel better call it by a larger, more descriptive, name "GROUPISM."

It is seductive to blame others. It helps divert the blame you feel for yourself.

So give yourself a break, your not a rich, oppressive, elitist (even though that is your demographic) your are what you are, and that is LUCKY! Enjoy it.

Or move to Bangladesh and eat rice and shit in the street if that makes you feel better.

Your choice. But until you do move to Bangladesh, quit trying to blame ME for the worlds ill's while exempting yourself.

dohboi wrote:"does any of us here truly desire to move to some lessor country?"

Well it sounds like Ibon already has. And really, the elite's don't give a rat's a$$ about whether we sleep safe in our beds. They have done a pretty damn good job of depriving lots of people of their 'beds' by taking the homes the beds are in away from people in the last decade or so.

And the racist claim???? What freakin' definition of racism are you working from here, man?

(Here's a little primer to get you introduced to the subject if you're really interested: http://bytheirstrangefruit.blogspot.com ... tatum.html)

I'm talking about global elites who are now of all races.

And yeah, if what I say seems oppressive to some over-privileged white guys, I have not one bit of problem with that.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 10 May 2015, 13:05:32

All 321 million citizens of the USA are among the "elites", meaning the top 10% of the most advantaged people in the World. Even those who are in the third generation as welfare recipients in an inner city environment are still better off than 90% of the World's citizens.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 10 May 2015, 13:29:14

Great. I'll own up to being a 'groupist.' :lol:

Silly me thinks that it is the group(s) most responsible for a problem who should have the most responsibility for fixing the problem. If that makes me a groupist, I embrace the term gracefully and gratefully. :) Thanks for expanding my vocabulary and my identity. :o
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby ennui2 » Sun 10 May 2015, 15:02:32

There is no godlike body standing next to this planet deciding who is most responsible for fixing the problem. So it really doesn't matter who we think is most responsible or not. We're not in a position to enforce that responsibility. Tragedy of the commons.

These arguments always circle around and hit the same points over and over again. Shall we discuss how some one-world benign dictatorship can "fix" things? Maybe some enlightened revolution ala Zeitgeist to throw off the boogieman illuminaughties? As if everyone speaks in one voice...

Everyone thinks they know best and so all you get is dissensus, one of Greer's catch-phrases. He seems to think this is a good thing, as it breeds innovation, but it is at its root--conflict. When the boat is sinking, you don't need brainstorming. You need everyone to pick up a pail and start bailing. We're not bailing. We're just arguing.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 10 May 2015, 16:11:40

This continual suggestion that the working class in the US and EU are somehow part of the 'elite' because they are wealthier than a rich person in a 3rd world country is nonsensical from a political point of view. Power is the key issue, which is being ignored.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 10 May 2015, 17:44:10

dinopello wrote:
dohboi wrote:And the feedstock for those would be....?


Image

Actually that movie made much sense. Envisioning a extremely populated and degraded world, where is the source of food? Ourselves. No questioning the rationale.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 10 May 2015, 17:53:20

dohboi wrote:Great. I'll own up to being a 'groupist.' :lol:

Silly me thinks that it is the group(s) most responsible for a problem who should have the most responsibility for fixing the problem. If that makes me a groupist, I embrace the term gracefully and gratefully. :) Thanks for expanding my vocabulary and my identity. :o


Yeah, what Hitler said!
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 10 May 2015, 17:57:42

dohboi wrote:"So who in this world would you "logically" cut loose"

The logical answer is the ~20% of the global population who is doing and has done ~80% of the harm.

But it is the 20% (or really, the .01%) at the top who are mostly calling the shots.

It's the old problem of belling the cat, as usual. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belling_the_cat
Image


So we just have to "off" this special "group" whom YOU have singled out.

Damn glad to have your benevelent leadership!
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 10 May 2015, 18:23:06

KaiserJeep wrote:All 321 million citizens of the USA are among the "elites", meaning the top 10% of the most advantaged people in the World. Even those who are in the third generation as welfare recipients in an inner city environment are still better off than 90% of the World's citizens.
It depends on what you measure. That we use up more crap and our life-expectancy is slightly longer doesn't mean we live better.

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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Lore » Sun 10 May 2015, 18:48:42

The U.S. ranks 36th in life expectancy. Right behind Costa Rica and a jump ahead of Cuba. Nothing to be proud of if you rate advantage by years.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... expectancy
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 10 May 2015, 18:53:10

Lore wrote:The U.S. ranks 36th in life expectancy. Right behind Costa Rica and a jump ahead of Cuba. Nothing to be proud of if you rate advantage by years.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... expectancy

I was just responding to KJ and his dominionistic dismissal of us doomsayers.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 10 May 2015, 19:56:06

Sorry to all if I got a bit cranky here. Not looking forward to a long work week traveling 4 days in a row! :-x

The points I am trying to make are as follows....

"OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D"

Who are "WE"? "here on PO"? The 90%, in the USA? Humanity?, Earth? flora and fauna?

If one reads "humanity" (or any of its lessor variants, e.g., USA or 90%) then it is "WE" who created the problem and "WE" are getting our just deserts.

I dislike blaming "OTHERS" in any guise. Be they the elite, 1%ers, Bilderburgers, sheiks, Jews, blacks, Isis, military industrial complex, whatever.

I feel strongly, very strongly, that blaming others, individuals or groups, is a way of deflecting responsibility.

I also feel very strongly that such blame shifting is extremely dangerous. It allows us to split into factions and the normal consequence od such splitting is the dehumanizations of others, of groups.

My suspission is that this is how the USA will come to extreme grief, through infighting between internal factions. One side blaming the other. Civil war, if only fought out city by city.

Thus my strong reaction to suggestions that "they" are responsible.

No, WE are responsible. And WE need to be cooperate to do what we can to educate and mitigate the consequences of our actions. WE need to put aside our prejudices, look beyond past slights, and work towards the best future possible. I have little hope we will succeed, but I do hope.

As ROCMAN so wisely noted above.....

"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US."
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 10 May 2015, 23:36:45

Ah, at last, Godwin's law has been fulfilled. Totally expected. Yes, holding those most responsible for harm to be most accountable is of course totally fascist thinking...or not. Some might call it something like justice.

But of course, as is the usual thing, the guiltiest will not be held accountable for their crimes. Instead, the heaviest burden will fall on those who have done the least harm.

This is the way of the world.

And of course, those who point out this injustice will be branded with all sorts of nasty terms. But some of us will go on pointing out these painful truths, not matter the consequence to ourselves. Others will choose other paths. We all end up in the same hole in the ground.

I do not, by the way, put the blame solely on others. I am way up there on the list of those accountable. Just not quite at the top of the list.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 11 May 2015, 05:37:56

Justice is not absolute, it is defined by the cultural system you adhere to.

In fact, we have little justice. Sometimes we have revenge. But mostly we have pent up anger, frustration, guilt, and a scape goat.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 11 May 2015, 07:55:10

yeah, Newfie, has a point. Justice like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. In terms of morality I prefer if humanity could have just settled on the notion of "goodness". It seems we have made more and can make more headway there.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 11 May 2015, 11:29:50

One of the worst aspects is that we have no plan. There is no plan. The top 0.1% are happy with that because they own 80% of everything already, so who needs a plan?
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 11 May 2015, 11:34:00

Yeah but what is headed our way will affect every single human, regardless of wealth, race, gender etc.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby ennui2 » Mon 11 May 2015, 11:55:04

Newfie wrote:I dislike blaming "OTHERS" in any guise. Be they the elite, 1%ers, Bilderburgers, sheiks, Jews, blacks, Isis, military industrial complex, whatever. I feel strongly, very strongly, that blaming others, individuals or groups, is a way of deflecting responsibility. I also feel very strongly that such blame shifting is extremely dangerous. It allows us to split into factions and the normal consequence od such splitting is the dehumanizations of others, of groups.


Amen. That's when the way war and violence starts. People feel like they are entitled to be judge/jury/executioner or they think if we just get rid of the ___ "problem" then we can have our cake and eat it too. This just treats the symptoms and not the root cause.
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Re: OK, we really are TOTALLY F'D

Unread postby Apneaman » Sat 16 May 2015, 08:10:32

Robert Callaghan Says:
May 15th, 2015 at 7:54 am

I noticed from the question and answer period that people still are generally unaware of stuff, so I will periodically post this information here for the benefit of the casual anonymous reader.

Collapse Data Cheat Sheet
► 99% of Rhinos gone since 1914.

► 97% of Tigers gone since 1914.

► 90% of Lions gone since 1993.

► 90% of Sea Turtles gone since 1980.

► 90% of Monarch Butterflies gone since 1995.

► 90% of Big Ocean Fish gone since 1950.

► 80% of Western Gorillas gone since 1955.

► 60% of Forest Elephants gone since 1970.

► 50% of Great Barrier Reef gone since 1985.

► 50% of Human Sperm Counts gone since 1950.

► 50% of Fresh Water Fish gone since 1987.

► 40% of Giraffes gone since 2000.

► 40% of ocean phytoplankton gone since 1950.

► Ocean plankton declines of 1% per year means 50% gone in 70 years, more than 1% is likely.

► Ocean acidification doubles by 2050, triples by 2100.

► 30% of Marine Birds gone since 1995.

► 28% of Land Animals gone since 1970.

► 28% of All Marine Animals gone since 1970.

► Humans and livestock are 97% of earth’s land vertebrate biomass.

► 10,000 years ago humans and livestock were a mere 0.01% of land vertebrate biomass.

► Our crop and pasture lands caused 80% of all land vertebrate species extinctions.

http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documen ... ll-of-Life–Facing-the-Mass-Extinction

► 1,000,000 humans, net, are added to earth every 4½ days.

► We must produce more food in the next 50 years than we have in the past 10,000 years combined.

http://www.monsanto.com/improvingagricu ... -more.aspx

► We need 6 million hectares of new farmland every single year for the next 30 years to do this.

► We lose 12 million hectares of farmland every single year due to soil degradation, depletion and loss.

http://www.monbiot.com/2015/03/25/3703/

► Earth has only 60 years of farming left at current world soil degradation rates.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... continues/

► We already passed world peak growth rate production in 2006 for wheat, soy, corn and fish.

http://www.ufz.de/index.php?en=33456

► IMPORTANT:

All IPCC mitigation, sequestration and adaptive strategies assume m-o-r-e farmland is available,

says Dr. Kevin Anderson

http://www.ecoshock.info/2015/03/broken ... -news.html

► In 10 years, 4 billion people will be short of fresh water, 2 billion will be severely short of fresh water.

► One billion humans now walk a mile each day for fresh water.

► Humans and livestock eat 40% of earth’s annual land chlorophyll production.

► We are running out of cheap, accessible potassium and phosphates.

► These irreplaceable fertilizers cannot be manufactured by humans.

► We can recycle phosphates, but we don’t because of because of mining interests.

► The nitrogen cycle is so badly corrupted it kills off river and ocean life.

► We face mounting crop losses due to drought, flood and extreme weather.

► There are 80,000 untested chemicals in our environment.

► Mixed together in our bodies they are even more dangerous.

► We add thousands of chemicals to our food in a untrustworthy regulatory environment.

► We spray so much herbicide and pesticide, our croplands are “Green Deserts”.

► GM foods destroy soil ecology and poisons us without our permission.

► GM crops destroyed 90% of Monarch Butterflies in 20 years.

► GM cotton stalks kill livestock that eat it.

http://www.responsibletechnology.org/gmo-dangers

► 3 neo-nicotinoid infused seeds will kill one bird. Nicotinoids are water soluble.

► Monocultures cause bee malnutrition due to a lack of bio-diversity in pollen sources.

► Bee malnutrition weakens colonies against poisons, disease and extreme weather.

► We add nanoparticles to our foods without testing for long term safety.

► We add computer designed, synthetic DNA to our food.

► We kill elephants and orangutans in Indonesia to clear forests to grow palm oil.

► This palm oil is burnt as “green” bio-fuel in Germany’s diesel cars in Europe.

► Rainforests are slashed and burned in South America to grow soy.

► Pigs in China eat half of all the soy grown in South America.

► Soy oil is burnt as bio-fuel in Northern Europe.

► Our food is killing off life on earth.

————————————————————————————–

How a farmer described growing wheat over the last 20 years…

Before:

► Plant seed harvested from previous year

► Allow wheat to grow naturally

► Harvest cutting ~1 foot from ground (storing some seed for next year’s use, selling the extra)

► Plow (turning chaff, stubble, and weeds into ground for nutrient breakdown)

► Remove from planting rotation for 1 year

► Plow (cutting off roots)

► Plow (turn plant material into soil)

► Repeat

Now:

► Plant seeds bought from GMO manufacturer

► Drench with GMO’s herbicide to prevent anything else from growing

► Spray with chemical fertilizers (because the ground doesn’t have enough nutrients)

► Spray with herbicide to kill the whole field at once to ensure the whole field is ready to cut at the same time.

► Harvest, cutting the wheat all the way to the ground because it doesn’t grow tall enough due to lack of nutrients

► Sell all seeds that came off of plants (it’s illegal to keep anything)

► Burn off minimal stubble and turn once into the ground with disc.

► Repeat until soil is gone.

————————————————————————————-

► GMO INTENSIVE LIVESTOCK FARMING WILL DESTROY LIFE ON EARTH AND IS A

… SUPER-NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT TO EVERY HUMAN BEING

► Runaway mass extinction is unstoppable and irreversible once started.

http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documen ... ll-of-Life–Facing-the-Mass-Extinction

► Green Energy is our solution to Climate Change.

► But, Climate Change is only 1 of 6 Direct Drivers for Mass Extinction.

► 50% of land vertebrate species died off in the last 50 years.

► 50% of land vertebrate species will die off in the next 40 years.

► +50% = Unstoppable Irreversible Mass Extinction.

► 75% Species Loss = Mass Extinction.

► The 6 Direct Drivers of Mass Extinction are:

… 1) Invasive Species

… 2) Over-Population

… 3) Over-Exploitation

… 4) Habitat Loss

….5) Climate Change

….6) Pollution

► GREEN ENERGY WILL NOT STOP MASS EXTINCTION

► Humans and livestock are earth’s number one invasive species.

► We are in the last doubling of resource demand.

► At current growth rates our energy demand will exceed the output of the sun in 1,500 years.

► Energy demand is set to double in 50 years.

► Emissions have to go down 80% in 30 years.

► Renewable energy uses more minerals for less energy than fossil fuels.

► Post-peak minerals will hit in 20 years – more energy needed for less minerals extracted.

► It takes 10X more intermittent electrical energy to displace one unit of fossil electrical energy.

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/ ... ATE-201206

► It takes one ton of coal to make just 6 solar panels.

► Solar and wind turbine production is deadly toxic.

► Green energy systems only last 30 years and have to be replaced.

► We can’t replace billions of green systems every 30 years and save earth.

http://www.fastcoexist.com/3044467/a-pe ... ing-out-of

► Recycling their alloys is difficult and uses more energy than mining.

► Green energy doesn’t run on the sun and wind, it runs on mining minerals.

► Green energy is driven by short-term greedy capitalism and corruption.

► Green energy products will have to be replaced in 30 years during extreme shortages.

► Especially under current emissions-depletions-extinction scenarios.

► 40% Green Energy requires 200% more copper says John Timmer of Ars Technica.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/10/ ... pollution/

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/rene ... pply-16682

http://www.fastcoexist.com/3044467/a-pe ... ing-out-of

► Peak copper hits 2030 – 2040 says Ugo Bardi.

http://energyskeptic.com/2013/ugo-bardi ... g-machine/

► Post peak copper production cannot accelerate at any price says Dave Lowell.

http://www.mining.com/web/peak-copper/

► This is true of any post peak mineral production.

► There is no real substitute for copper says Mat McDermott of Motherboard.

http://motherboard.vice.com/en_ca/blog/ ... smartphone

► We mined 50% of all the copper in human history in just the last 30 years.

► 100% green energy requires 500% more copper.

► Peak minerals includes more than just copper.

► By 2050, expect to be past peaks for tin, silver, nickel, zinc, cadmium and more.

http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/i ... :paperback

► Most new hi-tech green energy exotic mineral requirements are energy-cost prohibitive.

► We move some 3 billion tons of earth per year to get 15 millions tons of copper.

► We can’t afford to mine 500% more copper at ever lower concentrations.

► We cannot recycle it into existence.

► We cannot conserve it into existence.

► Substituting aluminum for copper wire takes 5X the energy and is a brittle fire hazard.

http://www.fastcoexist.com/3044467/a-pe ... ing-out-of

► Google’s own Stanford Phd, green energy experts, Ross Koningstein and David Fork, tell IEEE Spectrum why
… green energy “simply won’t work” and is a “false dream” without major lifestyle changes.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/21 ... engineers/

► You can see humanity fly off the charts here:

http://www.slideshare.net/fullscreen/IG ... ion-2015/1

http://www.ufz.de/index.php?en=33456

http://infoamazonia.org/projects/fire/

► In just 13 years, we will “lock in” an inevitable near term 6°C earth temp rise because we continually exceed the worse-case emissions scenario set out back in 2007 says climate scientist, Dr. Michael Jennings.

http://www.ecoshock.info/2014/03/climate-dark-age.html

► Why Trolls Are Green

You will notice I barely mentioned climate change. That’s because green energy boosters focus exclusively on climate change and ignore everything else. They know we don’t have enough resources to provide renewable energy for 9 billion people every 30 years. Green energy is based on mining, not the sun, the wind and the stars. The number one concern of miners is, supply and the profit-loss break even point. Solar panels and wind turbines are sold by giant conglomerates who just want to sell us as many panels and turbines as they can before we run out. Divestment is just a distraction for rich old and young. Learn why Bill McKibben and Naomi Klein and the NIC (Non-profit Industrial Complex) are funded by Wall Street.

The Most Important COP Briefing That No One Ever Heard, Lies, Racism, Omnicide

http://theartofannihilation.com/portfolio/test/

The Corporate Sponsors Of Bill McKibben’s Divestment Tour

http://theartofannihilation.com/portfol ... ll-street/

If you are still skeptical, get help, otherwise…

START HERE:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Permaculture/co ... permabuzz/

http://guymcpherson.com/2015/05/present ... ent-159417
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