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THE Argentina Thread (merged)

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THE Argentina Thread (merged)

Unread postby Barbara » Thu 01 Jul 2004, 06:14:34

It was Dec.2001. America was shocked for Enron. Europe was shocked for the Argentina bankruptcy. I think it's very interesting to see what happened there: if someone could predict it, he would be named "doomsayer". I also think it can be a "model" for the coming crisis.

Argentina was the richest of South America countries. There was a strong middle class, and a powerful agriculture providing (and exporting) food for 300 millions people per year!
Everything happened in few days, maybe weeks. The economy crashed. The industries closed, and the owners fled abroad leaving millions people jobless. The banks stopped working, and the people couldn't access their savings (there were long queues on the road waiting for the banks to open and give small amounts). Most people couldn't affort to pay mortgages, and simply left the houses because nobody was buying them.
There were riots against the police, when people assaulted the malls and supermarkets to find food.
People began bartering on the roads, exchanging what they can since the money was worthless. Middle class families went scavenging in the garbage. There was starving... guess where? Not in the city, but in the land!

There's a thing I want to point out: do you think that the politic and economic leaders in Argentina and around the world didn't know anything? The country crashed in few days. But the powerful were prepared to close everything and fly with amazing amouts of money. Nobody prepared people for what was coming, they were left on themselves facing something totally unexpected.

Any thoughts?
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Unread postby k_semler » Thu 01 Jul 2004, 06:38:41

From what I saw on the PBS special about this crash shortly after it happened, it was because of the rapid deflation of Argentina's Peso. I do not renember what this was caused by, but I will assume it was brought on by a collapse of the debit bubble caused by the ever-increasing loans that the Argentinan govornment took out to stimulate its economy. This seems very familiar to what is happening now in the US. I just hope that we do not encounter the same situation.

What impacted me most about this broadcast was the image of thousands of people pounding on the bank walls with anything they could find. They were doing this as a form of protest, as they were not allowed access to thier money. If I would have been there, I would have found some C4, and blown the damn doors off of the place. Why they did not resort to this, I have no idea. Fortunatly, the banking system collapse already occured in the US during the Great Depression, which is exactly why the federal govornment started the FDIC. Because of the FDIC, my bank accounts are protected from loss, so I have very little worry as far as the banking system is concerned.
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Unread postby OilBurner » Thu 01 Jul 2004, 06:48:01

IIRC, they stopped the mass withdrawal of cash to prevent the banks crashing during rapid devaluation of the peso.
This was an emergency law known as "corralito" or "little fence".

So, in the event of economic meltdown in the US, what's to stop the US gov employing a similar tactic?
Let them eat cake, as it were?
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Unread postby k_semler » Thu 01 Jul 2004, 07:07:17

OilBurner wrote:IIRC, they stopped the mass withdrawal of cash to prevent the banks crashing during rapid devaluation of the peso.
This was an emergency law known as "corralito" or "little fence".

So, in the event of economic meltdown in the US, what's to stop the US gov employing a similar tactic?
Let them eat cake, as it were?


Thanks for letting me know why the banks closed. I did not know that. Also, in the event of economic meltdown in the US, my bank already has a limit of withdrawing $600.00 per day, or $3,000 per week, so I do not think that it would be much of a difference to me any how. Plus, if I really need the money, I can just go down to the grocery store, and write a check there for cash. The govornment may impose a limit on the amonut of cash able to be withdrawn per day, but as long as there is a grovery store that will cash my checks, I will have access to my money. If that fails, I suppose I could just buy a big ticket item such as a big screen TV with a check, and 1 day later, take it back and get a refund. Then I would be just getting my money, but in a more round-about way. It is good to be able to milk the system like that. If that fails, I guess it would be time to use the "ultimate force" to get my cash.
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Unread postby The_Virginian » Mon 05 Jul 2004, 16:04:19

There was starving... guess where? Not in the city, but in the land!



Barbra,

Any talk of why this was? Were they in farms that specialized in one crop only? (like Soybeans etc.)

Cities would be the place to recieve government asistance, if that is what you are looking forward to recieving. So, many of the Sheeple (sheep people) would be better off in the city, than planting AFTER an economic crash and waiting for the watermelons to come up. :roll: Or trying to fish/ farm/ hunt etc. for the first time.
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Unread postby tkn317071 » Mon 05 Jul 2004, 20:16:32

What caused the devaluation of the Argentinian peso?

I remember hearing Naomi Klein talk about Argentina on Alternative Radio and how it was somehow a stepping stone for the mega-wealthy/multinational corporations whose next target turned out to be Iraq...for privatization of state owned industries and whatnot.
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Unread postby Soft_Landing » Tue 06 Jul 2004, 03:38:47

There was starving... guess where? Not in the city, but in the land!


IMO, immediately after a crash, while the govt. still has control/ability to move aid etc., the city would be the best place to be. If the situation continued to corrode, then those who were 'starving' on the land would be the lucky ones...
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National Deficit, Argentina's Collapse, "Banking Holida

Unread postby k_semler » Thu 19 Aug 2004, 03:06:39

I have just come across this site: http://www.verdant.net/argentina.htm , and this looks like it could happen in the United States. Our national debit is now at an all time high, (no new news), and the economy is at best in a limping state. The competition with the Euro could drastically devalue the United States Dollar, and there may be a day when the USD is no longer considered the world currency. According to the BBC, the USD is trading at $1.36 per Euro. Could a replay of Argentina happen here in the United States? Post your thoughts.
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Not IF but WHEN

Unread postby mainster » Thu 19 Aug 2004, 05:01:15

As long as the power elite are in control they don't give a shit about the rest of the people (lower 90%). The American empire is in decline as surely as the roman empire was at one point, and nothing can stop it...
There are certain fundamental physical laws that can NOT be broken.
The discussion should be WHEN the US will look like todays argentina. I would say before 2010, it could happen very rapidly over a course of a few weeks or months, just like all the other big crisis around the world (asia tiger economies, brazil, russia, argentina) came as big shocks. These things always seem to happen "out of the blue" catching everyone off-guard. There is a chance the $50 oil barrier could provide the psychological tipping point where the markets start crashing for real and people panic, sending the whole house of cards crashing down!
Maybe the upcoming "Iran crisis" will be used as a "distraction"?
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This is what economic collapse looks like

Unread postby cador » Wed 15 Dec 2004, 12:51:14

This is what economic collapse looks like: A picture is worth a thousand words (click here)

Is the Argentinian economic collapse from 2 years ago a symptom of peak oil? I don't know but I can see many first world countries becoming like this one as the oil pie keeps getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Print this article and show it to your friends. Argentina was at one time the sixth wealthiest nation in the world. You say it can't happen here? Just wait and see.
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Unread postby DomusAlbion » Wed 15 Dec 2004, 13:35:21

It took Argentina some fifty years to get to this state.

After WW II the country was rather wealthy. Lots of things went very wrong.
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Unread postby Ayoob_Reloaded » Wed 15 Dec 2004, 13:45:50

Holy shit. 50% below the poverty line? Wow. Brutal. Can we send them money or something?
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Unread postby SamIAm » Wed 15 Dec 2004, 13:50:19

Yea, what went wrong that turned Argentina from one of the wealthiest countries in the world to a hell hole was socialism, the preferred form of salvery for many of you advocates of government solutions on this site.
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Unread postby khebab » Wed 15 Dec 2004, 13:57:05

SamIAm wrote:Yea, what went wrong that turned Argentina from one of the wealthiest countries in the world to a hell hole was socialism, the preferred form of salvery for many of you advocates of government solutions on this site.

You mean that socialism (quoted form the text):
During the "dirty war" of the 1970s, military rulers arrested tens of thousands of people, 15,000 of whom never resurfaced. And when then-President Carlos Menem touted New Capitalism in the 1990s, the rich got richer -- many illegally -- while the poor got poorer.

You can't be serious!
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Unread postby americandream » Wed 15 Dec 2004, 14:11:00

When the dunces run out of arguments they blame socialism. Get to the corner of the class, you cretin!!
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Unread postby cador » Wed 15 Dec 2004, 14:18:59

DomusAlbion wrote:It took Argentina some fifty years to get to this state. After WW II the country was rather wealthy. Lots of things went very wrong.

Perhaps. Some say it was George Soros and his currency speculation which is the underlying cause.
From the article: Statistically, it is easy to see why. Before 1999, when this country of 36 million inhabitants slipped into recession, Argentina's per capita income was $8,909 -- double Mexico's and three times that of Poland. Today, per capita income has sunk to $2,500, roughly on a par with Jamaica and Belarus.

Everybody's income shrank by a third in the matter of 3 years. In a perfect world we could have a not so bumpy transition towards alternatives to oil (liquified coal, solar, etc). Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. The banks will NOT provide debt relief in the context of the shrinking economy of the future.

The soft-landing types assume that we'll have a transition period where we'll adjust our standard of living. How did we adjust to the 1930s economic crash? Germany elected Hitler. We fought WW2 and 50 million people died.

We solved the 1970s economic/energy crisis by introducing women in the workplace so that 2 breadwinners could maintain a household that had the same standard of living as the one that existed in the 1950s when the "man of the house" could sustain his family.

It's the coming "transition period" which scares the hell out of me. What adjustments will we have to make? Does everybody take a 40% paycut while the price of fuel doubles? We can't innovate, conserve or spend our way out of this mess.
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Unread postby k_semler » Wed 15 Dec 2004, 14:26:42

Here Lies the United States Of America.

July 04, 1776 - June 23 2005

Epitaph: "The Experiment Is Over."

Rest In Peace.

Eminent Domain Was The Murderer.
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Unread postby SamIAm » Wed 15 Dec 2004, 14:44:32

Argentina abandoned freedom and conservative politics in 1916 with radical socialist winning democratic elections. The degeneration of the economy in 1930 led to a military coup that attempted to move away from socialism. In the mid 1930's the labor movement brough on more socialism.

In 1943 Peron overthrew the government. He was a socialist dictator - 5 year plan and gonernment interference in the business, just like the USSR, with the same disasterous results. In the 1950's and 1960' there was competition for power among various groups, all advocating more socialism. The country did not collapse totally overnight; it took many years of government destruction of freedom to bring the people to thier knees politically and economically.

It is only throght ignorance that people choose socialsim, and again I point out that this site is a hotbed of support for government interference in the economy. The only difference is that you socialist want to impose by force upon those of us who value freedom just a little different form of slavery than the fascists/socialist that not control the government and exploit you for their own personal benefit.
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Unread postby cador » Wed 15 Dec 2004, 14:45:38


Thanks for posting this. If all we had to worry about was peak oil, then the coming energy crisis wouldn't be much of a problem. It's peak oil + the bankster system that scares the hell out of me.
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Unread postby gnm » Wed 15 Dec 2004, 16:36:11

Ok I had read about this before but now I followed the other links and I am officially MORE freaked out than I was before...
8O

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