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Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 29 Apr 2019, 13:40:03

radon1 wrote: They somehow find a doctor but the entire thing begins to fall apart in couple years time as nobody is available to maintain it. And this all is vastly expensive as a hospital for 100 people costs as much as the one for 10 000 in terms of building and maintenance. The solution is straightforward - bring people into clusters. Not only will they be able to visit a modern hospital, but also they will have a much greater choice in terms of available jobs and opportunities.


Radon,

Wilderness is a refuge and no longer provides livelyhood for modern humans. So these huge wilderness areas that remain can be understood as a place for humans to visit to nourish the soul, not provide a means of physical sustenance. Wilderness is a spiritual church in this sense. Preservation of wilderness is laying the foundation for an alternative to consumption. this is not theoretical, you can see it practiced already by millions. Maybe these millions are still eclipsed by the billions of clueless consumers but it is an important start.

One example are the millions of bird watchers globally, folks that spend their free time going out out on their own or who join clubs and find natural areas closer to their homes to spend time observing the diversity of avifauna, observing and recording migration of hundreds of species of birds. I will give you a specific data. There are 300,000 members on EBird which is a citizen science site where bird watchers record their sightings Since 2002 there have been recorded 300 million specific bird sightings This data is valuable for monitoring changes of population etc. Compared to the global population of mindless consumers this may seem like a small fraction of humanity but it is a good example of a sizable population of human beings choosing to spend their time in nature and feeling a tribal alliance with others with a mission of sorts to protect birds. This is one of many examples actually. The Russians and Ukranians that are currently visiting have shared with me how popular it is in Russia to go out to surrounding forests and natural areas to collect mushrooms, how popular it is in Russia to have really robust back yard gardens that contribute an important percentage of their vegetable consumption. Etc etc.

I disparage the vast population of Kudzu Apes who have become mindless consumers but at the same time I acknowledge the viability of alternative orientations that already exist. The number of humans who derive well being spending time out doors. I am a host every year to hundreds of them.

Your point is well taken regarding the efficiency of modern life requiring humans clustering together in urban and suburban living.

If I think of the suicide statistics that Newfie posted and if I think of how many of our guests here come to find spiritual sustenance to heal what urban living is lacking then we can begin to not only understand the spiritual impoverishment afflicting the vast majority of humanity but also the remedy to this. If over consumption is one of the major causes of human overshoot then it is not hard to understand the important role nature plays in providing spiritual sustenance as an alternative to consumption. This does not require that everyone travels thousands of miles.

If we take a close look at the lifestyle of your average American, many no longer even understand the connection of the food they buy in grocery store and the plant or tree that was grown to provide this food. You can no longer recognize the plant or animal source of most packaged process food these days. Americans do not stand alone but they certainly are much more disconnected from natural processes then the majority of humanity. Think opiate addiction, suicide, addiction to media, obesity, the ease to which angry folks with grievances are susceptible to the hatred spewed by demagogue leaders and one begins to understand the depths of the spiritual poverty in the United States of America.

The Chinese pathological relationship with money was recently explained to me by a Chinese American... It seems the Chinese suffer a growing population of mentally deranged and hungry consumers as well.

Many pockets of deeply afflicted Kudzu Apes around the planet. Americans aren't alone but they are certainly well infected and well represented of this cultural decadence.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 29 Apr 2019, 19:03:50

Continuing to derail this socialism thread with more musings about how nature has become an abstraction.

So there are articles that children should be outside 4-6 hours per day, that there is this thing called Nature Deficit Disorder when modern humans lose completely contact with the natural world.

The very fact that we now have a disorder with a name and the very fact that more and more children aren't spending time out of doors is something our grandfathers would have found unfathomable. And yet here we are.

Incredible really the growing percentage of our planets human inhabitants who don't know their planet.... except for digital abstract representations.

The planet that they do not know will not treat them kindly one day. That is the way that many will finally become introduced....

Leave it at that!
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 29 Apr 2019, 21:29:55

Ibon, consider that Nature is not kind in the action of evolution, either. The norms of every prior generation may - indeed, almost certainly are not - appropriate for a network of human minds that communicate with mobile devices.

The network is persistent wherever it reaches. There are few places on Earth that do not have access. Once established, little in the way of infrastructure is required to retain network access. Mankind is now a networked hive organism, evolving towards a new species norm that may not even be life on the surface of a planet, but rather a space habitat.

Before the chorus of "Not that again!", note that your belief and acceptance of the concept is simply not required. In fact those of you who are truly awake and aware have already noted that society and culture are rapidly changing as a result of the omnipresent network.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 30 Apr 2019, 04:52:10

Ibon wrote:The planet that they do not know will not treat them kindly one day. That is the way that many will finally become introduced....


Overall I agree with the points, but a couple observations can be made.

The idea of the unification with nature may itself begin to sound like an ideology - ecologism, eco-socialism, naturalism or whatever. Once people are fed and have some leisure time, they probably want to have a free choice in respect if how they spend this leisure time. May be take dance classes, or chorus or biking, or posting on forums, go after mushrooms, or alter in between activities etc. If you force them into an activity, as well-intended as it can be, it may start to look a bit like dictatorship.

Second, the gardening activities in Russia and Ukraine are mostly done out of necessity, even if they have the added benefit of being healthy or enjoyable or else. People cannot fully utilize themselves within the existing world's economic system, and spend their spare hours engaged in primitive agriculture to compensate for it. This is definitely not something advantageous, as this is quite an inefficient allocation of resources. The existing system is unable to produce enough demand to accommodate their spare hours, and people, however talented/hardworking/ethical/whatever they are, have to leech off the natural resources pie that the authorities cut for them as is the case in Russia, or join the race to the bottom as is the case in Ukraine. Or emigrate with all the accompanying hassle and debilitating humiliation. Or do some optional gardening. The existing system is unable to deliver, as mush as its advocates state the opposite repeatedly.

And this is one of numerous manifestations of why people can be dissatisfied with the existing system for very down-to-earth, non-ideological, easy to understand reasons. No surprise that the appointed challenger was Zizek, a resident of the most successful post-Cold War east European country and altogether Melania's place of origin, but the country caught in the so called "middle-income" trap. While the protector was Peterson, a fatcat from one of the wealthiest spots on the globe. Look at the correspondent split on this forum - no difference. The debate is essentially between questioning the status-quo, and protecting it, as it has been for centuries before, but for some reason framed as "capitalism vs socialism".
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 30 Apr 2019, 18:47:47

Nobody ever said that "life" was a concept limited to planetary surfaces. The Sun, for example, could be a boiling hot cauldron of gases, teeming with - call them "micro-organisms" the size of Texas, who behave even stranger than Texans do. Perhaps the "dark matter" that surrounds our Solar System is a gigantic sea of near vacuum, and asteroids, comets, etc. are the living plankton equivalents.

We live on a particular planet with other carbon-based life. That does not mean that such biochemistry is the only possible one or that we would even recognize other forms of life if we saw them.

The idea that the Earth is the creche of the cybernetic hive mind entered my head slightly over three years ago. I do in fact believe that we will evolve off this ball of dirt and fecundate the Solar System. Whether we survive or become extinct is uncertain. What is not uncertain at all is that all of us, even myself, lack the imagination to anticipate the true shape of the future, or whether the human race will splinter into two or more species, the one that most of you would call "human" being the one that still lives on the increasingly toxic planet, and also begins rapidly mutating.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Cog » Tue 30 Apr 2019, 19:17:45

The people in Venezuela are finding out what socialism brings you. 10 million percent inflation.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby lpetrich » Wed 01 May 2019, 06:39:38

Cog wrote:
Newfie wrote:Cog,
What’s wrong with the United Nations? What’s wrong with folks from various countries talking?

I see no common ground with an organization dedicated to the destruction of capitalism and the USA in particular, in favor of global socialism. But a unique form of socialism in which the rich countries are bled dry to fund the poor ones.

How is that supposed to be the case? There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in the John Birch Society.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby ralfy » Mon 19 Jul 2021, 01:29:12

"China's Transformation from Poverty to Economic Power"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuKa99i94NI
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby mustang19 » Tue 20 Jul 2021, 01:01:39

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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 20 Jul 2021, 15:05:54

mustang19 wrote:https://i.ibb.co/Sm9hhZG/34-CDA452-0-EA7-48-E8-9-EF2-94-C7500058-FA.png

Communism is a market economy

And we should believe everything you say, expecially given the nature of your "sources". :roll:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Tue 02 Jan 2024, 07:11:03

This is how the democratic and capitalist alternative works

“Jorge”, and appears to have been working under the radar in elections in various countries for more than two decades.
The investigation reveals extraordinary details about how disinformation is being weaponised by Team Jorge, which runs a private service offering to covertly meddle in elections without a trace.
The group also works for corporate clients.

One of Team Jorge’s key services is a sophisticated software package, Advanced Impact Media Solutions, or Aims.
It controls a vast army of thousands of fake social media profiles on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Telegram, Gmail, Instagram and YouTube.
Some avatars even have Amazon accounts with credit cards, bitcoin wallets and Airbnb accounts.

His team spoke of how they could gather intelligence on rivals, including by using hacking techniques to access Gmail and Telegram accounts.
They boasted of planting material in legitimate news outlets, which are then amplified by the Aims bot-management software.

Evidence of a global private market in disinformation aimed at elections will also ring alarm bells for democracies around the world.

We have a team in Greece and a team in [the] Emirates … You follow the leads.
[We have completed] 33 presidential-level campaigns, 27 of which were successful.”
Later, he said he was involved in two “major projects” in the US but claimed not to engage directly in US politics.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -tal-hanan

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -tal-hanan
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby theluckycountry » Tue 02 Jan 2024, 17:32:36

Much of their strategy appeared to revolve around disrupting or sabotaging rival campaigns: the team even claimed to have sent a sex toy delivered via Amazon to the home of a politician, with the aim of giving his wife the false impression he was having an affair.


That's the trouble with the world today, you can't believe anything, you can't take anything at face value. It's the system, the whole global human construct, it's as corrupt as hell. There are little bright spots, typically far from city spaces and TV sets and internet abodes where you can enjoy an honest truthful conversation with a neighbor or friend, but it's getting rarer and rarer.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 02 Jan 2024, 22:22:32

Given the point that something like half of Marx's planks are followed by most countries, it looks like socialism leads to "misery and destitution" as well as the opposite.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 03 Jan 2024, 01:06:23

ralfy wrote:Given the point that something like half of Marx's planks are followed by most countries....


Most of Marx's ten planks are batshit crazy and haven't been adopted outside of batshit crazy communist countries like North Korea.

There are only two of the 10 that are widely adopted by most countries, i.e. a progressive income tax and free education for children. And even those are combined with more crazy idea in the original versions of the manifesto. For instance the free education for children is combined with educating children to work in factories for their communist masters. No thanks.

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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby theluckycountry » Wed 03 Jan 2024, 04:45:13

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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 05 Jan 2024, 11:24:48

There is no doubt the world is awash in BS.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 05 Jan 2024, 16:09:36

True socialism as practiced in NZ. Abject failure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXDuZe2V7ks
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 06 Jan 2024, 01:48:00

theluckycountry wrote:True socialism as practiced in NZ. Abject failures


You've obviously never been been to New Zealand.

First of all it's not a socialist country. New Zealand is a capitalist country with private ownership of land and businesses and even a small but vigorous stock market.

Seond, New Zealand is not an abject failure. In actuality it's one of the most beautiful and pleasant little countries you could possibly imagine.

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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 06 Jan 2024, 02:49:15

Plantagenet wrote:
theluckycountry wrote:True socialism as practiced in NZ. Abject failures


You've obviously never been been to New Zealand.


That's the problem with you're ilk plant. You have a closed mind, you never even watched the vid, which, in light of your comments, makes you look like an idiot.
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