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Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 10:58:47

"look at the sea of Kudzu Apes and I see degraded decadent human beings. We weren't always like this."
Yes, Ibon, we have treated the Earth, the way we have treated each other often. With little consideration
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 11:19:23

onlooker wrote:"look at the sea of Kudzu Apes and I see degraded decadent human beings. We weren't always like this."
Yes, Ibon, we have treated the Earth, the way we have treated each other often. With little consideration


I would not despair the decadence. In fact the current degradation and decadence will be an agent to the correction. In this sense it is ok to embrace it. The same way one could embrace climate change and all the other destabilizing elements to the human juggernaut.

We seem to want to have our cake and eat it too during these times of human overshoot. These elements of instability are not evil or wrong or immoral. They are consequences. Embrace them as the initial cracks that will break the resiliency of modern civilization.

If we weren't always like this as a species that means that we can once again return to a cultural orientation that can exist within carrying capacity of our mother earth. If in the past we held our mother earth as sacred why are there so many that doubt our ability to once again one day coexist in harmony with the natural world. I have no doubt about this.

The anomaly is now. There is a base line we will return to. And components of that base line are humility, reverence and holding our mother earth as sacred.

Think about it. The current human culture is decadent in relationship to our mother earth. That in and of itself is enough reason to understand that there is no long term viability to this arrangement. Things are moving exactly where they need to at the moment..... not because there are wise stewards guiding our human population. It is because of the collective decadence that we are moving in the right direction. Toward the instabilities that will bring us back to a base line we have forgotten we even had.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 11:33:53

Ibon wrote:Think about it. The current human culture is decadent in relationship to our mother earth. That in and of itself is enough reason to understand that there is no long term viability to this arrangement. Things are moving exactly where they need to at the moment..... not because there are wise stewards guiding our human population. It is because of the collective decadence that we are moving in the right direction. Toward the instabilities that will bring us back to a base line we have forgotten we even had.


Every animal species expands its numbers when there are adequate resources. When the number of animals grows to the point that the population exceeds the carrying capacity of the environment the population will crash.

Rather then seeing human culture as decadent---as having fallen from some prior non-decadent condition --- I see human sapiens as just another animal species, facing the same limitations that other animal species face when their population gets too large.

Its not that human behavior was better in the past and has changed and become decadent ----- its just that when it comes to population dynamics, human behavior is much the same as that of our fellow animals. Humans have had periods of population growth and population crashes in the past. Chances are we are following the same path now.

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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 12:45:23

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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 14 Apr 2019, 09:23:18

Plantagenet wrote:
Rather then seeing human culture as decadent---as having fallen from some prior non-decadent condition --- I see human sapiens as just another animal species, facing the same limitations that other animal species face when their population gets too large.



It's the current crop of humans that are decadent. Our species is not decadent.

On the other thread we talk about adapting more frugal ways, about educating ourselves away from consumer culture.

Do you really want to dispute the current decadence? Or claim that it is written in our species genes?

Nope. It might wound the self entitled ego a bit ...... but rest assured, modern 21st century humans are degenerate and decadent.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby dissident » Sun 14 Apr 2019, 10:00:56

Socialist theoreticians ignore the genetic mentality of humans. Claiming that only current humans are somehow not good enough to be part of the "ideal system" is nonsense. Every generation starts from scratch and nurture is not 100% of the brain function. The community cohesion that existed in the past due to natural incentives (survival) is disappearing as society urbanizes. There is atomization as humans see each other as competitors in the rat race and not networks of support. So no extended families and no community. A hive maintained by the state and oligarchy through material (consumer junk) gratification. This process of social decay is happening regardless of the system. It was not any different in the USSR and I know this directly.

There was some sort of natural "democratic socialism" when humans were still nomadic thanks to survival incentives. But pampering self-centered individuals of developed societies only creates a pathological entitlement syndrome. You can actually see this aggressive welfare bum mentality in the former communist states. It is slowly fading thanks to generational turnover.

In the case of 3rd world country development, socialist policies can raise the pauper majority out of destitution. This actually did happen in China and Cuba. So Chavez' attempt to improve the lives of his countrymen through suppression of a parasitical clique of comprador oligarchs invested in running a banana republic racket was fully legitimate. The problem is that a Chinese style transition needs to happen once the masses are economically "liberated". Pursuing welfare state approaches for people that do not need them is a guaranteed disaster. BTW, it is clear that the current crime wave and economic disruption in Venezuela is externally engineered by a certain self-anointed exceptionalist power that has been lording over Latin America for over 100 years. These conditions were not generic to other communist and socialist countries.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 14 Apr 2019, 14:39:00

There is only one difference between the current generation and prior ones, and it is one that Ibon struggles to accept. Today's humans are networked via the omnipresent, all pervading, inescapable worldwide Internet.

I felt a pang of the same unrest when I saw how adroitly my twin 3-year-old grandkids could manipulate their iPads. Their parents have no doubts, obviously. I kept my misgivings to myself.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 14 Apr 2019, 15:30:40

Ibon wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
Rather then seeing human culture as decadent---as having fallen from some prior non-decadent condition --- I see human sapiens as just another animal species, facing the same limitations that other animal species face when their population gets too large.


It's the current crop of humans that are decadent. Our species is not decadent.

Except, it's completely unreasonable to throw such a label at the entire human race.

Even if 99.9% of humans could reasonably be called "decadent" by people who agree on the precise definition of what that means in context, that's still over 7.5 million people who aren't decadent. (And given differing circumstances and context, I don't think such a definition will be easily agreed on by thoughtful people).

And how "decadent" can the hundreds of millions of third world people (say, the bottom 10%, just for argument's sake) living basically hand to mouth in a literal "if you don't work today, you don't eat today" situation be? It's not like they can be lay-abouts, at least not for long.

And how about the out-of-control third world population expansion? Well, I have a big 401-K, earned and invested over decades at a decent, secure job, and invested since. Poor third worlders just have their kids as their primary hope of help in their old age. No 401-K's, etc. in sight. So as bad as that population growth is for the biosphere and future generations overall, having those kids is rational, not decadent, even if it might be tough to consistently feed them, IMO -- for a truly poor person.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 14 Apr 2019, 15:51:06

KaiserJeep wrote:There is only one difference between the current generation and prior ones, and it is one that Ibon struggles to accept. Today's humans are networked via the omnipresent, all pervading, inescapable worldwide Internet.

I felt a pang of the same unrest when I saw how adroitly my twin 3-year-old grandkids could manipulate their iPads. Their parents have no doubts, obviously. I kept my misgivings to myself.

I'm not sure how this will play out. It could be a huge boon or a huge curse. Just like almost every other new technology with the potential to become all-pervasive.

They'll almost certainly be exposed quite a bit to computer technology when they first hit formal schooling, regardless. So not sure if waiting, and having them behind would be better. Kids with parents who care about their education will have some reading skills before they hit first grade, for example.

Books were initially regarded as a potential problem, because people would (mostly) no longer learn to recite long passages from memory -- no need when you can just look up the passage in a book. No doubt brains were altered somewhat from the availability of books, just like our brains are definitely altered by lots of internet use.

The internet can make me much more productive, if used in the right way (by learning how to do things / do things better, etc). Or make me into a social media addict with no productive capacity or desire.

How have guns played out? Cars? Etc? It's all about context, and a lot of luck, IMO.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 14 Apr 2019, 18:12:26

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Even if 99.9% of humans could reasonably be called "decadent" by people who agree on the precise definition of what that means in context, that's still over 7.5 million people who aren't decadent.


That is pretty close to the percentage that often do not make it through the bottleneck of ecological overshoot. I don't have any illusions that my progeny will be a member of that 7.5 million but I would like to hope so.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 14 Apr 2019, 18:44:33

I would use a different word than decadent. I would use domesticated implying we are tamed and controlled via both poistive reinforcements ie pleasures/entertainment and negative ones ie. pervasive laws and a police state. But more subtle forms of control exist both of a positive and negative nature. On the positive side are myths, traditions, memes and stories we perpetuate and buy into as a society. On the negative side, via class structure, fear and ignorance. By controlling the narrative one can exert these subtle forms of control
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 14 Apr 2019, 21:12:21

I'll stick with decadent thank you.

Just ask our grandfathers.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby radon1 » Thu 25 Apr 2019, 19:48:46

Zizek and Peterson debate the subject for 3 hours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78BFFq_8XvM
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sat 27 Apr 2019, 02:24:55

We have become greedy, decadent, individuals.
We used to be a part of a family, village, community.
We seemed to know what enough was now it seems nothing is enough.

You have to throw stuff out to get more stuff.

Capitalism leads to misery and destruction



"Capitalism steals from the young and the unborn. It’s time for a new system, that respects their rights"

"At the heart of capitalism is a vast and scarcely examined assumption: you are entitled to as great a share of the world’s resources as your money can buy.
You can purchase as much land, as much atmospheric space, as many minerals, as much meat and fish as you can afford, regardless of who might be deprived.
If you can pay for them, you can own entire mountain ranges and fertile plains.
You can burn as much fuel as you like.
Every pound or dollar secures a certain right over the world’s natural wealth.
But why?
What just principle equates the numbers in your bank account with a right to own the fabric of the Earth?
Most people I ask are completely stumped by this question. "


Quite a good article here

https://www.monbiot.com/2019/03/18/inte ... nal-theft/
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby radon1 » Sat 27 Apr 2019, 05:07:58

The entire debate is misplaced and misleading. It's based on the assumption that on one hand, money are objective. The line of reasoning goes like this - capitalism creates "wealth", "wealth" is the money on the bank account, money are objective, thus capitalism is objectively good. On the other hand, capitalism itself is described as an artificial construct, which some clever ("western") people introduced, maintained and continue to maintain, and which can be maintained or demolished at will.

In reality, everything is upside down. As discussed, money are not objective, and thus the concept of wealth as utilized in the debate becomes very elusive. By contrast, capitalism is an objective phenomenon rather than a product of somebody's will. It probably has it limits just as the sun has a limited supply of hydrogen.

And nobody can sensibly describe what "socialism" is.

The subject is void.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 27 Apr 2019, 06:24:30

One point upon which I disagree: Socialism is but one variation upon the completely flawed alternative economy described in the writings of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. These two men tried very hard, but they lacked a fundamental knowledge of mankind as a primate. This understanding came about in the mid 20th Century as part of the new Science of Anthropology. Anthropology in turn was based upon Darwin's work, and he was a contemporary of Marx and Engels.

You are correct about Capitalism, which is in fact primates doing what comes natural - in fact the other apes practice primative forms of Capitalism. Female apes have even been known to trade sex for food, for example.

In today's world, those "Social Sciences" or "Liberal Arts" or "Humanities" which have not been totally torn apart and reconstructed since the mid 20th Century based upon the new understandings of primate behaviors are totally obsolete. The one aspect of this which matters most is the defective economic theories of Marx and Engels, which get repeated endlessly at the undergraduate level to young people the world over, by "academics" who refuse to accept their own status as primates.

In fact, millions of humans have died attempting to implement the defective theories of Marx and Engels. The present misery in Venezuela is but the latest example. There are over four dozen other failures dating back to the early 20th Century.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Cog » Sat 27 Apr 2019, 07:47:15

Beta thinking will always result in the Beta's trying to destroy the Alpha because they don't like the unequal outcomes of capitalism. Not being able to challenge the Alpha for dominance on their own efforts, they would like someone else(government) to do the work for them. Totally submissive type thinking that fits in well with what KJ is talking about here. Capitalism is the natural state of affairs with humans and other primates. To try to change what we are is unnatural and leads to horrific outcomes.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby radon1 » Sat 27 Apr 2019, 09:54:19

KaiserJeep wrote: The present misery in Venezuela is but the latest example.


The Venezuelan overlords are capitalist to their bones. They just took a ride on the businesses driving them out and becoming dominant on the territory. They made a deal with the populace that they will somehow distribute portion of the income from the international (capitalist) trade in exchange for support or at least neutrality. The populace was ok with it in that point apparently for their own reasons. Nothing to do with socialism, Marx, and even capitalism, but very well within the logic of alpha/beta domination seeking. As a side result, they broke the informal laws of fair business conduct, upset the local and international businessmen, and US politicians. And left the population with little reason to produce anything. Now they reap what they sowed. At any period in history, the result would be the same, whether or not capitalism was present anywhere at this point in time.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 27 Apr 2019, 10:17:16

Can't help to reference Newfie here and his emphasis on Consumerism.....
Discussing the evils or benefits of socialism or capitalism as 7.6 billion are hell bent on consuming away our planets resources just seems down right ignorant to the bigger picture.....

Not that it means anything either way.

The discussion has its roots in boredom and apathy to acknowledge the bigger picture.

Carry on.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 27 Apr 2019, 12:54:58

"as 7.6 billion are hell bent on consuming away our planets resources just seems down right ignorant to the bigger picture....."  think we all sort of agree on that. So yes we seem to be splitting hairs ever so finely.
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