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Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 10:52:56

The Death Toll of Capitalism

The mode of production wherein there exists a class of people who own the very means to livelihood and a class of property-less workers leads to class antagonism. Workers and owners have mutually exclusive interests. Furthermore, the capitalist mode of production actively creates situations that enable profit-making from human misery. Indeed, entire industries are predicated on the continued existence of war, illness, poverty, and paranoia. The arms industry; big pharma and big medicine; the financial industry, and more, would all be economically diminished and devastated by a decrease in warfare or illness. It is literally against the interests of these industries to solve some social problems. When you have a mode of production where warfare actually stimulates the economy, you know your mode of production is not geared toward the fulfillment of human life. This is a flaw inherent in the for-profit private mode of production known as capitalism. Capitalism is predicated on class divide and the expropriation of wealth from laborers. This is obviously true because otherwise, there would be no point in hiring employees - employees generate more wealth than they earn. This is essentially true. Class divide and misanthropic interests are the products of capitalism.

Modern capitalism and the improved standard of living of the First World is the result of brutal policies of colonization and imperialism in the Third World,

Imperialism is, therefore, an expression of capitalist interest: nations invade other nations for sources of materials, markets, and labor. I should be more precise and say specific classes within nations invade other nations for sources of materials, markets, and labor. There is no such thing as "we won a war" - material gains have never been distributed equally to the troops or the people of the mother nation, but to the capitalist class of that nation (e.g. Hawaii, the Philippines, World War I). The capitalist mode of production is very much responsible for the deaths due to imperialist wars and policies - deaths that resulted from wars and massacres over privatized wealth. Whereas some have this skewed and irrational notion that only libertarian fantasy capitalism is "real" capitalism and you can't attribute death counts from imperialism to capitalism, the reality is imperialism is a system propagated by privatized wealth: the fundamental notion of capitalism. The great tragedy is so many of these deaths were avoidable.

In total, the death toll of capitalism exceeds[b] 1 billion[/b]. You may doubt the video because it is made by a communist, but history does corroborate these death tolls.


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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Cog » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 11:13:42

If the commies were in the stock market today they wouldn't be complaining
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby evilgenius » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 12:10:47

At some point the death toll of death equals absolutely everyone! The real difference between capitalism and socialism is for whom a business run under said system is operating. Under socialism, they are run for an idea of the people as a collective. Under capitalism, they are run for the small group which owns the shares that are understood to represent ownership.

The collective is not any more an accurate representation of the people as a whole than the group of shareholders is of the interests of that group. Swarming around these concepts, though, are two distinct ideologies. The socialist one seeks to pertain to the collective, so it operates out of obligation to it. But collectives are hidebound. Hence, they work best in a static environment. If the society itself is undergoing too rapid a pace of change, the collective can fail to understand itself. Worse, it can fail to understand reason temporally, in relation to how the dynamics of the arguments precipitating the change work out. It can't, or won't, know which group to favor because it will always be behind in understanding what is going on in society. The kind of consensus it needs to be certain about what to do moves too slowly.

Capitalism does just the opposite. It tends to become all about trading shares. It favors speculation. The only way that the best interests of society are going to be recognized under it is if those involved in the market believe that honoring society is where the market is heading. That's right, capitalism also erases the interests of its adherents. They can ill afford to ignore what the market is doing, unless they own enough of a percentage of shares that they don't have to. Even then, the share price can get them, as marginal activity can rise up to undermine that insulation. So, capitalism has a great deal of impetus propelling it away from a managerial center around which stakeholder's interests can be negotiated or met. It's only the rules imposed upon it, GAAP mostly, which prevent wholesale abandonment of those principles.

The way that socialism responds to change is evident in the actions of certain countries. Take the way that a company like Uber has been received in certain places as opposed to others. Where a country is more socialist you have these loud calls to protect the taxi industry. This thinking forms a pattern. In places like the UK, for instance, decisions like this almost always favor the established, some might say calcified, industries. They don't exactly run to a plan, per se, but they do make decisions based upon an understanding of consensus. The fact that the understanding can be anachronistic doesn't seem important to them. They figure they can hold an election to sort things out.

Capitalism is much more Darwinian. It uses failure as a means to decision. There are few concepts which are proscribed as sacrosanct within it. Outside of those, no one can hold to anything, unless they are prepared to take the risk that position will fail. It takes a lot to expect a corporation to come round and "find Jesus." In point of view, if you are seeking that then your best bet is to turn to influencing the regulatory environment. Capitalism is a lot like the nervous system of the body, where the nerves either fire or they don't fire. And, in the brain, pathways, maybe even cells, live or die according to whether there is traffic. Just like in the body, when there is much more out there than can be represented at one slice in time, the response can be recorded on graphs according to not the brain this time but the corporation's understanding of how it interprets the previous results and how they reflect upon what was expected.

Neither of these systems truly depicts consensus within society. Each is better under certain conditions. Neither can replace the moral integrity of the people.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 13:21:06

I'm not thinking about the Capitalists or the Communists. Donald Trump is a prototypical Capitalist and Kim Jong-un a prototypical Communist. For the record, I find nothing admirable about either. Nor Stalin, Castro, Mao Tsetung, or any number of despots under whatever flavor of Marxism/Socialism/Communism they favor.

The lower and middle classes with the bulk of the population are what I am thinking about. They are not priviledged, entitled, fortunate, or born with silver spoons in their mouths. They labor and struggle and do so for years on end, just to live.

Ask yourself if you would rather do so in the USA/Canada/Germany/etc. or in North Korea/China/Venezuela/etc. It really is a simple and obvious choice. The Capitalist countries enjoy abundant food, relative wealth, and personal freedoms. The various Collectivist societies have famine, poverty, and misery.

Understanding these things, if you still think you prefer some Marxist ideal, then I question whether you can reason.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 13:32:35

Evil, no question that Capitalism is more effective and efficient in all aspects of the business cycle than any form of collective planned Economy. I fully concede to that. But the pertinent question is for whom? And the other question is do you want a thriving Economy that nevertheless manages to leave some in total destitution. The appeal for some of Communism was the implied notion that nobody was going to starve. That provisions would be made for the needs of everyone. Kaiser speaks of Socialist countries as though they function in a void. They do not. They function alongside the predatory Capitalism. And yes, some ruling cliques have been particularly callous towards their own people. The point is that anytime you have a few people making crucial decisions for the whole you can find an abuse of that power. So, I favor Anarchy as a political/economic system. I have come to that conclusion, that any centralized power of any kind is not good for the masses. In Socialism you have the centralized power of edict ie. government. In Capitalism you have the all encompassing power of money that dictates for so many their lot in life. So that those who control the most money get to make decisions that affect so many
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby lpetrich » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 13:45:36

Cog wrote:If the commies were in the stock market today they wouldn't be complaining

So True Capitalism is something that can never fail. It can only be failed. That's what you seem to be claiming.
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Re: A Crime Against Humanity

Unread postby lpetrich » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 18:10:53

KaiserJeep wrote: (article snipped for brevity)

Remainder is at: https://spectator.org/a-crime-against-humanity/

From the snipped part: "Given all the suffering it has caused, is socialism a hate crime?"

The mass-murder counts come from Marxist-Leninist regimes, and those regimes use their military and police forces for that. The sort of thing that "less government" conservatives are very willing to make an exception for. It also does not have much connection with economic failure, aside from trying to hide its effects.

Orthodox Marxism-Leninism is certainly an economic failure, even by its own terms. Communist countries have ended up suffering from creeping capitalism, to the point that most of the five surviving Communist countries are now capitalist roaders, to use an old Maoist insult. But just because Marxism-Leninism is an economic failure does not mean that the only acceptable socioeconomic system is plutocracy, with leaders of big businesses being the government.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Cog » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 20:02:49

lpetrich wrote:
Cog wrote:If the commies were in the stock market today they wouldn't be complaining

So True Capitalism is something that can never fail. It can only be failed. That's what you seem to be claiming.


Failure for individuals or even groups of individuals is baked into capitalism. That is not a flaw but a feature. Bad businesses fail, people go bankrupt. The wheat is separated from the chaff. But overall most people prosper and succeed under capitalism, and for all the reasons that KJ has painstakingly pointed out.

Socialism means everyone gets a participation trophy whether they are worthy of one or not. Socialism goes against human nature so it must fail. There is nothing more fair than success or failure that is built into capitalism.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 28 Aug 2018, 12:14:06

Something I find very interesting is that fascism is a form of socialism. The Nazis were the National Socialists, after all. Fascist are reactionary. They come in favor of what is perceived as what once made a country great, or an existing greatness which they feel is threatened. They combat change which works against that. In their understanding of what constitutes the central locus that is the people, or the people's opinion, they feel free to exclude certain groups, even those who by their organic nature ought to be included. But they still appeal to that locus, and believe in subsuming business to it.

These kinds of things are always going to be a danger if a country adopts unfettered capitalism. Capitalism has many forms, the unfettered type only being one. Otherwise, a society can use taxes, the law and convention to regulate business activity. If they don't, I think they risk pushing their people into dangerous ideologies. I don't mean that the type of socialism practiced today in Europe is amongst those. I think anyone can see, however, that if capitalism doesn't seem to work for a certain type of person, it has actually excluded them by means of segregating wealth toward the top to an extreme degree, and they have that system to pick from vs. one which appeals to their innate prejudices, then it's anybody's guess into which camp they will fall.

As far as regulation by convention, that is perhaps the most powerful. I'll give you an example. Ever since the bulk of Evangelical Christians were seduced by the so-called faith based doctrine, "name it and claim it," they have failed in their role as mediators regarding wealth in society. And, since their Christianity was no longer about behavior it began to be about the apocalyptic. They couldn't preach anything but unfettered capitalism, or it would expose their doctrine of fulfilling their wants. And the darker apocalyptic voice has colored everything in the culture. The zombies won't go away, no matter how many times they all get shot in the head. You have to realize where they really come from.

Yeah, alright, there was a stream of content in society working toward the world as we see it today long before what happened to the Evangelicals. I'm not saying any one group is all powerful within society, though. In that sense, the regulation brought about by convention is a sort of anarchy. There can be a consensus, but it will never truly silence the voices of the other members of a society. I think Hitler realized this, and tried desperately to implement a solution he thought might do it. That didn't work either.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 28 Aug 2018, 13:46:27

onlooker, your stated preferences still make no sense to me. OK, I understand that you have recognized that Socialism is very very much inferior to Capitalism, from the standpoint of the majority Middle Class. But then you endorse Anarchy, which has NEVER been a recognized form of government or economics, and whenever it existed in something like a frontier community, led to bone chilling violence and huge disparities in wealth.

I mean - if you know of ANY successful Anarchy, clue me in - I know of none. Even the full-on Libertarians seem to stop short of your position. Human nature being what it is, no rules seems the worst possible alternative.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 30 Aug 2018, 17:12:33

The Economy’s Not Booming. Predatory Capitalism’s Eating Itself

Quick — what’s the one thing that, funnily enough, Trump and his fiercest critics unwittingly agree on? “The economy’s booming!!” You hear it a dozen times a day. But is it? Why, then, do those very critics sometimes wonder, frowning and stroking their chins: “Wait, why aren’t wages rising? Why aren’t people’s savings and incomes and lives improving?” Now, a sensible person would at this point conclude that their theories were wrong. A reasonable one might even ask — “how can the economy really be ‘growing’ when life expectancy is falling? Isn’t that, well…absurd?” But wise men are not usually sensible people — they usually conclude that reality, not their theories, is what must be wrong. Therefore: “the economy’s booming!! High-five me, Larry!!”


The economy’s not booming. Capitalism’s eating itself. What happens when capitalism eats itself? Fascism does. With a heaping side order of authoritarianism, kleptocracy, theocracy, and all the other ills known to humankind. Do I exaggerate? Mom!! Umair was mean to me again!! Calm down, Tucker. You be the judge, and I’ll tell the story.


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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 30 Aug 2018, 17:46:38

A real piece of feel good, psuedo-scientific claptrap, that. I hope you don't make a habit of it, because it's bound to lead to stronger and more dangerous claptrap such as forms of Marxism.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 30 Aug 2018, 20:55:31

KaiserJeep wrote:I mean - if you know of ANY successful Anarchy, clue me in - I know of none. Even the full-on Libertarians seem to stop short of your position. Human nature being what it is, no rules seems the worst possible alternative.

There are anarchistists that hang out with the libertarian party, but I think that's just because they view libertarianism as a step in the right direction re smaller government being better than big government.

But real world, I've never seen the mainstream libertarian position re the US party be about anything approaching anarchy. They just want government doing FAR less than the current nanny state in the US.

I think I can safely say this as I've considered myself closer to a libertarian than either major US party for decades, watching their conventions, following the platform, etc. and often voted libertarian for POTUS. The latest time I did that was in protest of both mainstream candidates we had in 2016.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby evilgenius » Fri 31 Aug 2018, 11:41:52

Like I said, the regulation brought about by convention resembles anarchy. What it's based upon is how extroverts, which the overwhelming number of people are, use interaction with other people to gain emotional energy. They also pattern themselves after each other, after other people. Nobody has control of this patterning. It runs through the media. It pervades politics. It means a lot to most people to be judged in the public eye. Many people don't know what they think about a thing until they know what either the public consensus or an approximation of the public consensus is. Even those who are very certain about their beliefs are subject to this, as is observable in how opinions about things and systems of belief are often very locally or regionally oriented.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 31 Aug 2018, 13:06:52

But then there are a great many people content to not be noticed at all. I count myself among that group.

evilgenius I do agree with your point that most Fascists - like the Nazis - were and are Leftists. Communism for example is also a more extreme form of Socialism.

With the web of Federal regulations in the USA, I would hardly call the US flavor of Capitalism "unfetterred", either. My wife is a CPA specializing in taxes, and needs training every year because of new tax codes.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Fri 31 Aug 2018, 22:56:28

Just wonder how successful socialism would be if it was sabotaged economically and militarily
We will never find out some rich people dont want us to and spend billions of dollars and man hours ensuring it doesnt happen.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Cog » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 02:57:35

Don't worry comrades. We will get socialism right this time no matter how many people we have kill.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby careinke » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 14:05:21

KaiserJeep wrote:onlooker, your stated preferences still make no sense to me. OK, I understand that you have recognized that Socialism is very very much inferior to Capitalism, from the standpoint of the majority Middle Class. But then you endorse Anarchy, which has NEVER been a recognized form of government or economics, and whenever it existed in something like a frontier community, led to bone chilling violence and huge disparities in wealth.

I mean - if you know of ANY successful Anarchy, clue me in - I know of none. Even the full-on Libertarians seem to stop short of your position. Human nature being what it is, no rules seems the worst possible alternative.


Of course there has never been an anarchy government. Governments are all based on the use, or threat of the use, of force, Anarchy rejects the use of force with the exception of self defense or defending another person.

Anarchy (as I interpret it), is a philosophy based on four beliefs:

1. You own yourself. No one else owns you, if they do, your a slave. Maybe a free range slave, but a slave nonetheless. As long as your beliefs or actions do not infringe on others, you should be able do what you want.

2. Force should never be used except for self defense or defense of another person.

3. Consenting individuals or groups of individuals should be allowed to make any agreements (contracts) they want without outside interference as long as they do not infringe on others.

4. Individuals should be able to leave a system that no longer serves their interests.

There were some small anarchist communities in the late 1800s to early 1900s in the US. As a matter of fact, I live about a mile from one. It was a lively but relatively peaceful community. Although the city folk from Tacoma tried to massacre them from time to time. Their biggest internal conflict was between the "Nudes and the Prudes" over swimming attire. 8O

Today, there are a growing number of Anarchists, and I'm not talking about those young kids living in their parents basement and run around wearing black masks and breaking things.

Most Permaculturists, either are, or become anarchists pretty quickly. The ethics between the two philosophies are completely compatible. Especially the tenant that the individual is responsible for himself.

The other hotbed of Anarchists today is in cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin, the grandfather of cryptocurrencies, was designed to separate money from the state, similar to separation of religion and the state.

Ether was the second generation crypto designed to offer trust-less contracts, further reducing the necessity of the state.

EOS is one of the first third generation cryptos solving scaling, speed, and replacing proof of work with proof of stake (addressing power consumption issues).

All of this is being done outside of government control. The possibilities have increased dramatically thanks to technology and the Blockchain.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 14:42:43

It's the idealization of unfettered capitalism that is the danger. It's a static ideal, not one which changes as the culture or demographics regarding wealth or income distribution change. Generations go about espousing it because that's how they've come to understand the ideology. They may actually think that regulation is socialist. They haven't given much thought to how regulation fits into their ideas. Consequently, they are more likely to reject it outright, not seeing how it can assure the success of their endeavors. They don't see adopting unfettered capitalism as sticking a fifty amp fuse where a fifteen amp fuse belongs. They don't see how anything could go wrong.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 16:57:27

"It's the idealization of unfettered capitalism", well that is what some of us here argue that humans are prone to "like" the modern lifestyle and perks. So, that the West which has seen the greatest explosion of material wealth ever attained in history has adopted Capitalism as the one and only true path to contentment and happiness. One has to wonder about how truly foolish this is. One has to question how can people so easily succumb to "fools gold". If we all step back for a second and truly question why we work so hard to take that next vacation, or buy that new car or etc., we can begin to regain our senses to find that life is about so much more than ephemeral pleasures. And one can also realize that true contentment is much more easily reached by renouncing our urges than being constantly in their grip.
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