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Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Pops » Fri 24 Aug 2018, 20:34:29

KaiserJeep wrote:I don't think so, I think Pops discovered that retirement was not all it was cracked up to be.

What makes you think I'm retired? Crimeny, I'm only 60.

Either I retired decades ago or I'll never retire. When I was a kid I read a book called The 3 Boxes of Life that argued school to work to retirement is a trap to be avoided, so I did. Not sure why people would fall for that whole scam, such a cliché. Do what you hate your entire life dreaming about the day you can do what you want, then when you retire you find you're too old anyway, and sit around wishing you'd have done it when you were younger, the end.

I like what I do, I "designed" my job way back to fit me. I can do it anywhere there is a connection so I can live anywhere or nowhere in particular. I do creative work, usually fun and not that important. I rarely work more than 20 hours a week, generally the days/hours I want, with no one looking over my shoulder. When I'm done I work on old houses.

Same as I have for 20 years, I can do it another 20, no reason not too.

Kind of a lame ad hom all in all.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 24 Aug 2018, 21:59:02

Interestingly enough, Galbraith mentioned similar in his 1977 series "The Age of Uncertainty." In the episode on corporations, he thought that it would be best for the public to replace boards in large, private corporations if the latter kept receiving bailouts from the government. This very much applies to Wall Street today.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 24 Aug 2018, 23:20:37

h
e thought that it would be best for the public to replace boards in large, private corporations if the latter kept receiving bailouts from the government.


can you please give examples?
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 01:42:33

Pops wrote:
Kind of a lame ad hom all in all.


It's called projection. Who is the one struggling with retirement?
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Marxism Runs Amuck in South Africa

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 10:06:33

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Marxism Runs Amuck in South Africa
BRANDON J. WEICHERT | August 25, 2018, 12:05 am

And it’s reminding us how deadly it remains.


Plaas Moorde, that is Afrikaans (the language of South Africa) for “farm murders.” The hills of Polokwane, in South Africa’s Limpopo Province, are dotted with over 2,000 makeshift white crosses. A cross is added for every South African farmer who is murdered. This has occurred since the memorial’s founding in 1994. Thus far, 75 crosses have been added over the last 13 months — and this year has seen the lowest incidence of farm murders.

For nearly 25 years, the government of South Africa has striven to overcome the taint of Apartheid by engaging in forced land redistribution. The basic theory behind forced land redistribution is that the black South Africans will be unable to recover economically from the bleak days of Apartheid unless they can own land. With nearly 73 percent of the arable land in South Africa being owned by white South Africans, the government has steadily tried to cleave private property from whites and redistribute it to black South Africans.

Since 1994, when the first free elections involving the previously oppressed black South Africans were held (as well as when the first land redistribution programs were enacted), black ownership of land has increased. According to the South African farm lobbying group, Agri-SA, in 2017 black South Africans in smaller towns owned more agricultural land than whites did. In the aforementioned Limpopo Province, for instance, black South Africans possessed 52 percent of all arable land.

The media isn’t wrong in a technical sense: 2,000 murders of men, women, and children over 25 years does not necessarily qualify as a genocide. However, given the political climate and the declining economic conditions — as well as the rapid imbalance in demographics — South Africa is clearly on the road to a genocide of its white farmers. After all, the first step toward dehumanizing a minority group — the white South Africans are a minority in that country — is to deprive such groups of their property. From there, it becomes increasingly easier to reduce such groups to nothing in the eyes of the rest of the country’s populace.

What’s more, there is an ethno-political component to these massacres that cannot be ignored. The murders began in 1994: the same year that the initial land redistribution programs in South Africa were implemented. Presently, some of the worst killings have been perpetrated in places like Limpopo Province.

Further, a dangerous admixture of socialism, populism, and nationalism has gripped South Africa for the last few years. This has coincided with the general decline in economic prosperity there. According to Genocide Watch in 2015, “the murder rate among South African white farmers is four times higher than among other groups of South Africans.” Plus, a succession of South African leaders has routinely referred to the white South African farmers as “settlers.” In other words, the white South Africans are viewed as little more than foreigners by the same government that is charged with protecting their property rights.

Bubbling up along with these trends has been the rise of the Economic Freedom Fighters (EFF). A neo-Marxist revolutionary group led by the firebrand populist Julius Malema, this growing national movement has pushed the country’s politics to the far Left. This is especially true as Malema’s movement places increasing pressure on the ANC (Nelson Mandela’s former party) to either act on the radical notions of ethnically driven land redistribution or lose power.

For his part, Malema has vowed to die for the cause of forced land redistribution (should it come to that). He has also spun wildly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about “Jewish agents” training white farmers in terrorism tactics, so as to gin up the rabid anti-Semitism that dominates most Marxian movements. Malema vehemently denies that a white genocide is taking place — as do the ANC leaders running South Africa today. In Malema, in the words of the Australian Broadcasting Service, South Africa has “a shameless populist offering old-fashioned communist remedies.”

Reflecting on the recent torture and murder of his parents, white South African farmer Jo-An Engelbrecht explained of the perpetrators of the farm murders: “Not only do they kill, but the way they kill, they torture you. This is hate. This is political hate.” And, at EFF rallies, Malema can be heard ending his fiery speeches with the old ANC war-song: “We have taken our land back! Shoot to kill!” Other “classics,” such as “Shoot the Boer” have been heard at similar political rallies since 2012.

Things will continue to deteriorate in South Africa, the more the economy collapses. And, the economy will only worsen if any of Malema’s programs are enacted (as they’ve already started to be). South Africa is just the latest historical example proving that Marxism kills.


Original is at : https://spectator.org/marxism-runs-amuck-in-south-africa/
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 11:02:32

the white South Africans are a minority in that country

With nearly 73 percent of the arable land in South Africa being owned by white South Africans

And so looking at the situation it is plainly clear that the state of affairs has its root in the Apartheid policy and the extreme inequality in economic status among the majority blacks and minority whites. Because, nothing happens in a vacuum. It is part and parcel of the inquities bought on by Capitalism. And so while I do not sanction murder, I do understand the indignation and grievances of the long oppressed blacks in that country. And the impetus to have a piece of their country and improve their economic lot. The morale of the story is careful what you sow, for you will so reap. eh.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby lpetrich » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 11:17:04

Cog wrote:Well this thread was at least useful for identifying the marxists in our midst.

So anything other than the absolute sovereignty of business leaders over society is "Marxist"?

Meaning that it is Marxist to object to Google firing James Damore, and that it is Marxist to object to Apple, YouTube, Facebook, and Spotify removing Alex Jones's Infowars channel from their sites.

Also that it is Marxist to grumble about the "liberal media".
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 11:23:01

onlooker wrote:
the white South Africans are a minority in that country

With nearly 73 percent of the arable land in South Africa being owned by white South Africans

And so looking at the situation it is plainly clear that the state of affairs has its root in the Apartheid policy and the extreme inequality in economic status among the majority blacks and minority whites. Because, nothing happens in a vacuum. It is part and parcel of the inquities bought on by Capitalism. And so while I do not sanction murder, I do understand the indignation and grievances of the long oppressed blacks in that country. And the impetus to have a piece of their country and improve their economic lot. The morale of the story is careful what you sow, for you will so reap. eh.


That 'oppression' ended decades ago, for how long is mob rule considered preferable to rule of law once attempts at equity have taken place? Being angry because you are poor doesn't justify jack squat when it comes to murder. It might explain your motives, but it certainly doesn't justify them.

Put it another way, half of those alive today in South Africa have been born since the policy of Aparthied was removed. Young members of the majority attacking members of the minority when they have grown to adulthood in the post aparthied era is anathema to justice and rule of law.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 11:34:25

For the record, the Aparthied laws were enacted in 1948 and repealed when the Democracy was established in 1994. Since then, only Blacks have held national level elected office, and the murders mentioned above are (for the most part) not being investigated or prosecuted.

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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 11:35:44

Don't forget why capitalism is called that. Someone took a chance and invested. They put capital into an endeavor. They get to own the endeavor because of it. The concept of ownership is reflected in the basis of accounting, assets = liabilities plus owner's equity. But who says it stops there? Corporations, which are legally understood as people, are how we operate capitalism. You can be a private person and operate within the system, but you can't declare bankruptcy for your business separate from your person. To do that, you have to incorporate. Incorporation means officially stating the basic structure of the business. The charter states how many shares there are of ownership and who owns them, initially. If you own shares you can sell them, as outlined in the charter.

When I talk about the law addressing this I mean some of the things mentioned already. Taxes, for instance, are a great way to influence people's behavior. And it is the behavior of the people who own a business toward how that business operates that we are getting at, isn't it? But you can also do that by addressing ownership itself.

Socialism has sought to do that through confiscation. But confiscation is radical and prevents a clear understanding of what role a business will play when the playing field it's always operated upon itself changes. Businesses, like rail or television, work alright under government direction until something fundamental happens to change their business environment. Then the too slow pace of how the collective mind of the people, which is what the government is, fails to provide adequate direction.

I've suggested, in some other posts on this site, ways to do this, by creating opposing classes of stock which are set up to naturally come from different viewpoints as to how to run a corporation or to whom the benefits go, which might be more responsive, for instance. That's just one suggestion. The gig economy lays out another, that gig workers can form collective ownership of an enterprise. These could be adjunct enterprises or play as you may enterprises. We don't have to treat corporations like gamblers at a table either. They don't have to participate at each go round. They could be things which only participate when there is something for them to do.

We've always looked upon those who contribute labor as expenses. That has always been the correct way to look upon workers. But gig economy workers are not your typical worker as we've come to think of workers over the past few hundred years. When they've always been interchangeable, they secured that definition. But gig workers could adhere together in certain endeavors where there is a sort of cooperation made possible by the modern flow of information. Would you give the facilitator of such a thing, some website maybe, sole ownership of such a thing merely because it brought various actors together to do such a thing? For certain endeavors, the interchangeability could actually be said to lay with the website, and not with the so-called workers. Who says that corporations require some sort of central directive focus? Can that focus be more decentralized and the result still be called capitalism? We only say that it can't because that's how we've always done things.

Basically, it's about involvement. When Bernie Sanders comes along and wants to share the wealth it's acceptable if he chooses to do that by using taxes. If he chooses to do it by using confiscation, however, that is a whole other matter. It isn't correct to expect direction from the uninvolved. There isn't a way for them to participate. They will have a whole governmental layer between what they want as individuals and what directives get handed down. And pace of leadership would be effected. Bernie is not coming and asking the people what they can do for their country, as John Kennedy did, requesting involvement. Nor is there a way to institute responsibility, the type of which only something like bankruptcy can resolve when things go sideways.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 11:45:40

In the case of South Africa, the Dutch settled the place, and created huge farms and ranches in the countryside. Then when diamonds were discovered, the English invaded and the Dutch Whites and the Blacks both opposed them in the "Boer Wars" of the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. The "Afrikaners" lost, and the place became yet another English colony. Most of the diamond wealth ended up in English banks in the early 20th Century, right up until 1969 when the declining diamond production was replaced by North Sea Oil as British revenues.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 11:50:03

Again, I DO NOT SANCTION MURDER. But, I am saying the following:
Their is NO statue of limitation or sunset provisions when it comes to hatred and righteous anger. So though Apartheid ended quite some time ago, the scars and torment of that period for the Blacks, I am sure remains quite vivid. It is an unsettling situation and very scary for the white farmers. Nobody wins when people cannot treat others with a minumum of respect, humanity or civility. Why do Terrorists act with violence? Because at its heart the issues involved are laced with extreme emotion and impact on those involved. Demeaning a person to be a virtual slave, leaves scars and anger that can be passed to offspring. Hurt breeds hatred. And it may well be that Marxism is not helping the Economy to prosper which in turn makes this land situation even more volatile.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 13:38:49

Look, the lies a person has to tell themselves when they lack the genie that can either make or manage success are very different from those under which a socialist regime runs a business. Businesses have ways of running them into which people can be educated. Jealous people frequently don't find education relevant to their desire to have what someone else possesses. The jealous fall into the trap of imagining that things are just given. Socialist enterprises fall into the trap of failing to recognize the temporal reality within which a business operates, preferring to manage it according to either some plan or notion that complies with a previously held point of view. Capitalism is much better at arriving at contemporary decisions.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 14:36:11

...leading to Misery and Destitution in Marxist economies. Never forget: Capitalism WORKS MUCH BETTER, which is a relative comparison.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby lpetrich » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 18:31:54

KaiserJeep wrote:...leading to Misery and Destitution in Marxist economies.

What do you consider "Marxism"? Anything other than business leaders being the government?
Never forget: Capitalism WORKS MUCH BETTER, which is a relative comparison.

While anything bad that's done as capitalism is Not True Capitalism, right?

I also note that some capitalism apologists seem to believe that capitalism can never fail, that it can only be failed.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 19:21:41

Ip, Kaiser likes to point out that Overpopulation is the sole big reason our species is now in such a difficult predicament of sustaining itself on this planet. While that is the proximate direct cause it is also but a symptom of something else. That is the expansionist mode of humanity together with the penchant to consume/use ravenously food and non food items. But ask where does that come from , this need to possess, grow, control. It comes from a general set of economic principles set forth under the rubric of Capitalism. Kaiser says that is inevitably our human nature as primates. Yet we lived for thousands of years in primitive ways content to live as such and adapted to live as such. Then as our knowledge grew and with the invention of agriculture, we devised a clever system of money, personal posessions , lending etc. that we again can call Capitalism. And this clever system has been the BEST in the goal of maximizing profit. Well, in service to this profit we have sought ever more workers, consumers and soldiers. Which is the same as saying a larger population.
So, the impetus of growth and materialism that is now taking us to the very brink of total destruction is found formalized in Capitalism. That Capitalism owes its existence to our primate urges is true. But Capitalism then made those urges the prime mode of economic expression. That is why I rail against it.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 21:57:11

onlooker wrote:Ip, Kaiser likes to point out that Overpopulation is the sole big reason our species is now in such a difficult predicament of sustaining itself on this planet. While that is the proximate direct cause it is also but a symptom of something else. That is the expansionist mode of humanity together with the penchant to consume/use ravenously food and non food items. But ask where does that come from , this need to possess, grow, control. It comes from a general set of economic principles set forth under the rubric of Capitalism. Kaiser says that is inevitably our human nature as primates. Yet we lived for thousands of years in primitive ways content to live as such and adapted to live as such. Then as our knowledge grew and with the invention of agriculture, we devised a clever system of money, personal posessions , lending etc. that we again can call Capitalism. And this clever system has been the BEST in the goal of maximizing profit. Well, in service to this profit we have sought ever more workers, consumers and soldiers. Which is the same as saying a larger population.
So, the impetus of growth and materialism that is now taking us to the very brink of total destruction is found formalized in Capitalism. That Capitalism owes its existence to our primate urges is true. But Capitalism then made those urges the prime mode of economic expression. That is why I rail against it.


[Sarc]Perfectly straight logic from beginning to end.[/Sarc]

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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby MD » Sun 26 Aug 2018, 07:31:37

Pops wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:I don't think so, I think Pops discovered that retirement was not all it was cracked up to be.

What makes you think I'm retired? Crimeny, I'm only 60.

Either I retired decades ago or I'll never retire. When I was a kid I read a book called The 3 Boxes of Life that argued school to work to retirement is a trap to be avoided, so I did. Not sure why people would fall for that whole scam, such a cliché. Do what you hate your entire life dreaming about the day you can do what you want, then when you retire you find you're too old anyway, and sit around wishing you'd have done it when you were younger, the end.

I like what I do, I "designed" my job way back to fit me. I can do it anywhere there is a connection so I can live anywhere or nowhere in particular. I do creative work, usually fun and not that important. I rarely work more than 20 hours a week, generally the days/hours I want, with no one looking over my shoulder. When I'm done I work on old houses.

Same as I have for 20 years, I can do it another 20, no reason not too.

Kind of a lame ad hom all in all.


same age, and the same message I would deliver. I took some advice when I was 23 while coasting through humdrum jobs. "what's your favorite hobby? Make that your career." I did exactly that. Went from building heathkits to building control systems for automation. Never looked back and never want to retire, although my body is giving me different messages these days...
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A Crime Against Humanity

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 07:43:14

A Crime Against Humanity
SCOTT MCKAY | August 27, 2018, 12:05 am

Given all the suffering it has caused, is socialism a hate crime?

Last week at the New Criterion, conservative scholar James Piereson posed an interesting question, arguing the affirmative: is socialism a hate crime?

As is his custom, Piereson makes a solid case. His isn’t a complex argument — Piereson simply totals up the corpses thanks to the world’s chief practitioners of socialist governance in the 20thcentury, and concludes that anything which leads to the deaths of more than 110 million souls has to be a hate crime by the definition afforded us by the modern gatekeepers of the term.


Remainder is at: https://spectator.org/a-crime-against-humanity/
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Re: A Crime Against Humanity

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 08:05:45

KaiserJeep wrote: Piereson simply totals up the corpses thanks to the world’s chief practitioners of socialist governance in the 20thcentury, and concludes that anything which leads to the deaths of more than 110 million souls has to be a hate crime by the definition afforded us by the modern gatekeepers of the term.


Come on KJ, you have incredible cognitive dissonance here. The solution to the planets over population is staring you in the face and yet you rally against it.
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