[MD]

is it sweden where ceo pay is limited to 10x the pay of the lowliest worker? Long time ago I picked up that factoid. don't remember the details but I do know I liked it.

[Pops]

Hey MD!

[Pops]

Americans are ready for a little redistribution from the top rather than to the top.

Americans overall think redistributing wealth is a pretty good idea. According to a 2017 Reuters/Ipsos poll, over 75 percent of adults believe the rich should pay more in taxes. An Economist/YouGov poll taken the same year concluded Medicare for All, a cornerstone of the renewed socialist movement, is supported by 60 percent of Americans. Making college tuition free is supported by 63 percent of registered voters, according to a Morning Consult/Politico poll, while Civis Analytics found that 52 percent of respondents backed a federal jobs guarantee. Raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour? A Pew poll shows 52 percent are behind it. And when it comes to getting corporate money out of politics, an Ipsos poll finds 57 percent of Americans are on board.

sources here

[Ibon]

is it sweden where ceo pay is limited to 10x the pay of the lowliest worker? Long time ago I picked up that factoid. don't remember the details but I do know I liked it.

It could have been one of my posts from several years ago and if it was it was Switzerland I was referring to but I am sure Sweden and Germany is similar. I worked for a a multi national coporation on the stock exchange of Frankfurt, an optical medical device manufacturer. I was stationed in one of their branch offices in Siwtzerland for several years. I eventually rose to being Regional Director for Latin America and was in higher management.

The CEO earned $ 750,000 a year. The cleaning lady who came in on the 2pm - 10pm shift earned $ 35,000 a year. Everyone had full health benefits, 3 months pregnancy leave, 6 weeks vacation, all that good stuff that clueless AMericans have really no idea about and if they really did internalize these differences they should get outraged.

Compare the above wage distribution to what you find in an American company.

What defines general wellbeing in a culture when the CEO is honored for his hard work earning a high six figure salary at the same time the woman who cleans his office has health care, six weeks holiday and earns a livable wage. Compare that to a CEO earning $ 25 million a year while the cleaning lady who cleans his office earns $ 6 an hour and has 2 weeks vacation, no health care and no pregnancy leave, etc.

When is the electorate going to wake up to this?

Is our current president, who accurately tapped into the grievances of the collective, in any significant way addressing this?

Is this socialism to guarantee your most humble worker a livable wage with health care?

[KaiserJeep]

Silly fantasies aside, we are not having a revolution, we are not changing our form of government, and we are not redistributing wealth here in the USA. Socialism, no matter how defined by whomever is not in the cards either. Bernie Sanders is never holding office higher than he has, and never gets to be POTUS. Sorry to break it to all of you, but you still have to work and pay your taxes. Some of which will go as petroleum subsidies.

As for the jobs here in Silly Valley, Ibon - many have the benefits you mention and more. Free meals cooked to order by Cordon Bleu chefs at work. Free bus rides to and from work. Subsidized company housing. A masseuse at your beck and call, or a personal assistant to pick up your dry cleaning, stand in line at the DMV, and pick up the kids from school. Six weeks of sabbatical leave every four years in addition to generous vacation.

I'm not suggesting this is anything more than a profitable tech company's ways of retaining employees when there is a shortage of qualified labor. I suspect that was true at the job you described as well. Such benefits are the fruits of high profit high tech, and are not found at more mundane jobs.

I'll share with you one other thing. When the country of Germany mandated more and more benefits, and German employees became very expensive to have, we decided to have a lot fewer in the early days of the EU, and we replaced over 3/4ths of them with labor in the nearby countries, most of whom were a short train ride away from anything that needed doing in Germany. Then we did our level best to work the remaining employees much harder than before. The same pattern repeated in other EU countries. Our HPRC (High Technology Research Center) moved from Frankfurt to Norwalk, Conneticut, for example. Overall, by the time the EU employees were done voting themselves additional benefits, we had a lot fewer such employees. That is still true.

[MD]

re: the topic title

pure socialism -does- lead to some bad outcomes. Entitlement mentality, lack of will to perform, etc. but does that mean to abandon all social contracts? ... no.

Like all things, it's a balancing act, and like all things, as soon as humans get involved, so do petty narcissistic crimes. I can't talk about this any more.

[MD]

All right, I'm not quite done.

It's institutionalized socialism that fails repeatedly, as proven by history. Tyrants take over, and over, and over again.

Street level socialism, on the other hand, works quite well.

I can't fix it. Wish I could, but I can't. I'll still lend a helping hand where I can, and when I can, on an individual basis.

Humans suck, most of the time. Once in a while though, someone shines. I'll hang on to those events and march on

That's it.

[Pops]

Silly fantasies aside, we are not having a revolution,

Ah but we have, and it continues.



We have old age pension, disability, medical assistance, food support, unemployment insurance, government supported schools and colleges, local, state and national parks, housing, energy, cash... take a look

The silly fantasy is your belief your success is due to your superior work ethic and drive when in fact the middle class gets the majority of the social welfare benefit in the form of home ownership support, government support of your employer health plan, etc.



I don't blame you for railing against the poors, they're getting too much of your welfare!

.

[KaiserJeep]

I'm not railing against anything. I simply am pointing out that we are not having a revolution anytime soon, and probably never. The PO.com forum members are not in charge and never will be. The US Government is running the show. Your own influence is one vote. You have small arms, they have ships/planes/missiles, and nuclear weapons. Do not be foolish. Your function is to pay for the government via taxes. That is all.

Complain if you wish, we still have freedom of speech. But we are not and will not be changing the system that exists. You know this as well as anyone. Your consent, approval, nor even willing cooperation are simply not required.

[Ibon]

Complain if you wish, we still have freedom of speech. But we are not and will not be changing the system that exists. You know this as well as anyone. Your consent, approval, nor even willing cooperation are simply not required.

Who is actually saying we will radically change the system? KJ, are you arguing with celestial phantoms here?

There is a whole lot that can be tweaked with the American economy and cultural trajectory. Especially with the constraints coming up. How you hold the masses in some basic social safety net as constraints and limits unfold. Looking at other countries models. I don't see a binary argument taking place here, just plugging in information.

What soapbox are you on? Why this need to adamantly proclaim that the American culture and economic system is caste in stone?

The United States of America can do a lot better for its people than it is at the moment. I think that is a fair statement.

[Cog]

I appreciate you taking the time kj to defend capitalism but the socialist wannabes here won't be happy until we repeat the misery here which is socialism everywhere.

I'm just biding my time until the socialists go to guns to enforce their utopia on the rest of us.

[ralfy]

is it sweden where ceo pay is limited to 10x the pay of the lowliest worker? Long time ago I picked up that factoid. don't remember the details but I do know I liked it.

There's a lot more from Moore's feature "Where to Invade Next." The irony is that several ideas used in other countries originated in the U.S., but the latter has abandoned them.

[Cog]

Well not to worry, Elizabeth Warren believes that corporations are giving away too much to investors and stock holders. She proposes to redistribute that money to the workers instead. Lol you will need that redistribution because the value of your retirements funds will go to zero. Gotta love politicians who never ran a company nor understand capital who feel they are now the experts on capitalism.

The left is now for open borders, seizing corporations, banning free speech, and installing their socialist overlords. Mao would be proud.

[Ibon]

Rule 32
Pearl clutching by the wealthy few trickles down to anti-socialist rants on backwater boards
.

Those who spread their pearls around have greater well being.

Ever notice that dogs chained bark more. The anti-socialist rants are shrill barks by dogs who are chained by the very system they are barking to defend.

I find that amusing.

[Tanada]

IMO when the cold light of Peak Oil day dawns the house of cards debt based social safety net will evaporate in the USA. What happens to the safety net in other nations is beyond my limited knowledge of foreign debt loads and political will, but the USA is trillions of dollars in the hole on future social payments. Even for Social Security that is "guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the Federal Government" isn't worth the paper it is printed on if the government can no longer get loans from foreign entities and to cover the annual deficit beyond what taxes they collect. People like to ignore the fundamental reality that our social support systems require energy and money to function. A serious shortfall of energy causes a serious shortfall of tax revenue with economic disruption and the social safety systems gets hammered from both directions at once.

Do any of you honestly believe the Uncle Sugar is going to look out for the elderly and handicapped members of the population in a time of shortages? Even if they want to who are they going to take care of first, the vital workers of the disabled and elderly? MQ used to spout all the time about 'Lifeboat Rules' and in this sense he was correct. Real shortages sustained for months, years, decades lead to hard decisions.

[Cog]

Not to worry. The left believes that reality can be overcome by feelings and such. Whenever the left uses words like equitable or fair you know you are getting ready to hear an emotional based argument.

[Ibon]

IMO when the cold light of Peak Oil day dawns the house of cards debt based social safety net will evaporate in the USA.

Do any of you honestly believe the Uncle Sugar is going to look out for the elderly and handicapped members of the population in a time of shortages? Even if they want to who are they going to take care of first, the vital workers of the disabled and elderly? MQ used to spout all the time about 'Lifeboat Rules' and in this sense he was correct. Real shortages sustained for months, years, decades lead to hard decisions.

The social safety net is not a luxury, and does not come from altruism or good feelings. It comes from the same "cultural self preservation" place that our military and police force comes from. It is part of the fabric that stabilizes our culture. It should be noted that the great depression gave rise to great public works and the birth of some of the most cherished social services. Constraints and severe economic corrections, instead of weakening social services, can do just the opposite. Social services insure the resiliency of a culture and are not "hand outs" or free "give aways" in their most basic form. Excesses and abuse exist of course so a healthy debate about when social services rise to the level of excess also represent part of that resiliency.

We should recall the big giant debt bubble and peak oil will shave off the most worthless excesses of all and that is all that fake digital wealth by the very few who rig the system and no longer understand the concept of sharing their pearls.

Bottlenecks make everyone grow a spine, the unreasonable sense of entitlement from both the right and the left must pass through the gates of survival. No party or socio economic class gets spared.

I was thinking that part of the grievances you see so prevalent in American culture today comes from the burden of exceptionalism. Small countries that have nothing to prove and no cultural empire to defend are not burdened with the need to proclaim they are the shining beacon of enlightenment on the planet.

America is not the best and not all that great in the way it manages its wealth and serves its citizens. There are countries that do much better. Even poorer countries often do better at least in the perception of their citizens. But then those citizens are not burdened with exceptionalism.

Question. Can you be patriotic and still love your country without having to maintain this shrill burden of exceptionalism?

For many Americans it is very hard to hold their heads up high if they feel themselves way down in position 23 of countries on measures of wellbeing. It makes them downright ornery to not be the best any more and so they invent all kinds of weird rationalizations to insure themselves in their minds that they are still the most wonderful place on the planet to live.... They do this while driving right by the mentally ill homeless who stand at the traffic lights with torn card board boxes begging for change.

You almost never see a homeless person here in Panama on the streets. And yet this country has far more poor people.

Think about this all you exceptional Americans.

[Cog]

What is exceptional is the caste system in play in south American countries as defined by those of Spanish descent and those of Indian descent. The racism prevalent in south America puts any type of racism in the usa to shame.

Ibon knows exactly what I'm referring to here but you will never see him bring it up since it counters his argument that all is peace and joy south of the border.

[Ibon]

What is exceptional is the caste system in play in south American countries as defined by those of Spanish descent and those of Indian descent. The racism prevalent in south America puts any type of racism in the usa to shame.

Your little tighty whities would have brown stains on them if you came down here and hung out a while with the rich tapestry of mestizo, mullato, indigenous, afro, euro blood strains that all ride together in buses and who you see on the streets. Cog, this is America already and only more so in 20-30 years with the browning of America. This might even make America Great Again. Get over it Cog, you can't have your white racist exceptionalism back again. Its over.

[Cog]

Just like I said, ibon would avoid talking about who controls power and wealth in south america. It's basis is racism on the part of those with Spanish blood against indians and mulattos.

A dirty little secret that progressives in the usa don't like talking about.