Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Saving energy is pointless

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Is "Saving energy" pointless?

Yes
12
22%
No
43
78%
 
Total votes : 55

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 20 Apr 2012, 13:22:05

pstarr wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:I voted "no"---Saving energy is pointless.
then you voted yes.


Sorry---you are right. I voted YES--SAVING ENERGY IS POINTLESS.

pstarr wrote: You are ... one of the few with the education...to make a difference.


Thank you. I try.

---------------------------

I gather from your post that you disagree with my recommendation that people do any foreign traveling or other energy intensive activity they've always wanted to do now because it will be much more expensive in the future. Sorry---but thats likely to be the case.

While folks are insulating their homes and planting their gardens and saving money as gas prices go up, don't forget that if there is anything you've always wanted to do-----no matter how wasteful and energy hoggish it is----do it NOW. Don't let saving energy crowd out your enjoyment of being alive and experiencing the world. If you've always wanted to go to Bali or see the Great Barrier Reef or get an RV and travel around the USA or do a cruise through the Tahitian Islands or get a big 4WD rig and go sheep hunting---DO IT NOW. It will be much much more expensive to do in the future as energy prices rise even higher, if its even still possible to do at all. 8)
250 million thousand people have died of covid---Joe Biden
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama

-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 24499
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 20 Apr 2012, 16:27:04

We won't stop until we have used up all the oil. Therefore "saving energy" is pointless - it just changes the timescale.

True or false?
False. This argument seems to imply we will simply and easily transition to another energy source once all the energy is gone, or that concepts like "timescale" are irrelevant. Timescale is hugely relevant! Likewise the difference between a small energy shortfall and large one. We can't simply flip a switch and switch on non oil sources of energy. There are going to be consequences of not having access to all that energy. Saving energy on purpose is a much gentler mistress than forced demand destruction.
The oil barrel is half-full.
User avatar
kublikhan
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 4672
Joined: Tue 06 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Illinois

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby smiley » Fri 20 Apr 2012, 17:22:22

What about consuming as much as possible?

People are not going to act on alternatives or energy efficiency unless there is an actual shortage. I think we can be pretty certain of that.

Shortages are either caused by increasing demand or decreasing supply. Now we can all be very righteous, conserving etc, and try to get the good message across.

Or we can consume the hell out of it and drive the world to shortage to get things going.

Those guys racing the left lane with a 5000 lbs SUV or whizzing around in private yets may actually be doing us a favor. They drive prices up to a point that average Joe starts reading in on double glazing. So why not join them?

Just a thought :-D
User avatar
smiley
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2274
Joined: Fri 16 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Europe

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 20 Apr 2012, 18:44:51

pstarr wrote:that's planty's theory. [email protected] it up as quick as possible so we can cross over to the promised land.


No starry--- thats not my theory.

Try to calm down a bit---you've got a habit of going off half-cocked based on your own simplistic worldview rather than what has actually been posted. No one ever suggested that we "[email protected] it up as quick as possible" except you. :roll:
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 24499
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby smiley » Fri 20 Apr 2012, 19:05:08

that's planty's theory. [email protected] it up as quick as possible


No there is a slight twist. The 70's oil embargo and resulting price shock was very effective in promoting energy efficiency, and had a lasting effect. Without it, I think we would have ran out of production capacity years ago.

Now I do not have an oil well in my backyard, but I can withold oil from the market by using it myself. By creating artificial shortages you can get the desired reaction before actual supply driven shortages emerge.

Trick is to have demand temporarely outpace production, price inelasticity and investor hysteria do the rest.

... And of course I'm looking for a good excuse. Don't care about most material stuff, but I am still a long way from being done with seeing the world :wink:
User avatar
smiley
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2274
Joined: Fri 16 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Europe

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby dolanbaker » Fri 20 Apr 2012, 20:14:03

smiley wrote:
that's planty's theory. [email protected] it up as quick as possible


No there is a slight twist. The 70's oil embargo and resulting price shock was very effective in promoting energy efficiency, and had a lasting effect. Without it, I think we would have ran out of production capacity years ago.


That is a key point that needs to be brought up every time someone says that the people warning of shortages in the 1970s were wrong, just like the y2k issue, avoiding action was taken.

But unlike y2k, oil depletion has just been delayed, conservation just delays it a bit more (or allows others to consume the "spare"). Without conservation, Chindia would have had to do without the extra oil, they would simply have burned even more coal!
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.:Anonymous
Our whole economy is based on planned obsolescence.
Hungrymoggy "I am now predicting that Europe will NUKE ITSELF sometime in the first week of January"
User avatar
dolanbaker
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3851
Joined: Wed 14 Apr 2010, 10:38:47
Location: Éire

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 20 Apr 2012, 20:59:01

smiley wrote:
that's planty's theory. [email protected] it up as quick as possible


No there is a slight twist. The 70's oil embargo and resulting price shock was very effective in promoting energy efficiency, and had a lasting effect. Without it, I think we would have ran out of production capacity years ago.

Now I do not have an oil well in my backyard, but I can withold oil from the market by using it myself. By creating artificial shortages you can get the desired reaction before actual supply driven shortages emerge.

Trick is to have demand temporarely outpace production, price inelasticity and investor hysteria do the rest.

... And of course I'm looking for a good excuse. Don't care about most material stuff, but I am still a long way from being done with seeing the world :wink:


Of the $25k I have saved in 5 years of non car ownership (bar a few months) I have spent about the same amount on international travel. Of this about half in airfares. As far as value goes, I consider these trips o/s a bargain. The experience of going somewhere totally new and different when compared to driving to work to pay to drive to work, can hardly be compared. Also I think all forms of mass transit, including air travel, are more efficient than ownership and running costs associated with any form of private ICV much above a scooter. Production of a vehicle to do 10,000 mile a year (spend 99% of the time in a garage) is not efficient when compared to production of a vehicle which never stops working except for maintenance. It is not uncommon for a taxi to get well over 1 million km on a standard V6 engine running on LPG, while most private cars are in need of new engines with less than half that. There are many ways to do the maths on efficiency and to value the saving. Calling it pointless is basically spiteful.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9280
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 21 Apr 2012, 00:12:06

AdTheNad wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:I voted yes because for every litre of fuel I save is a litre available to be used elsewhere and it will be used!

In the short term yes. But for every litre you don't use, that puts a slight downward pressure on price, meaning less may be extracted and there may be less new holes drilled in the short to medium term. That means in the long run - some might stay in the ground, or maybe not, but it can delay the effects of AGW and the steepness of the down curve.
But won't lower prices just encourage consumption?

If you really want to keep it in the ground, buy up reserves and don't produce them. You could set up a fund similar to the "buy an acre of rainforest" (World Land Trust) concept. You could call it "World Oil Trust".

Oh, wait, ... Rockefeller probably trademarked that name.
Facebook knows you're a dog.
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7342
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby Loki » Sat 21 Apr 2012, 01:55:08

I'm smelling an awful lot of Jevon's Paradox bullshit in this thread. I really do wish people would read the literature. Conservation does not lead to increased consumption.

But I suppose an argument could be made for burning it all ASAP, assuming pathological narcissism is your guiding philosophy (which it is for many posters here). Climate and future generations be damned, it's all about me, me, me, now, now, now! The morality of a two year old.

Agent wrote:Those who are acclimated to living with a lower energy footprint will spend less time bemoaning their own personal investments in high energy utilization methods, and more time enjoying the world around them. And by consequence of steady downsizing are able to hand off more of their own resources to their child(ren), to whom those of us responsible for adding all that CO2 in the first place owe a considerable sum in compensation.

Nicely said, I agree completely.
A garden will make your rations go further.
User avatar
Loki
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 3509
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Oregon

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby AdTheNad » Sat 21 Apr 2012, 08:21:59

Keith_McClary wrote:
AdTheNad wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:I voted yes because for every litre of fuel I save is a litre available to be used elsewhere and it will be used!

In the short term yes. But for every litre you don't use, that puts a slight downward pressure on price, meaning less may be extracted and there may be less new holes drilled in the short to medium term. That means in the long run - some might stay in the ground, or maybe not, but it can delay the effects of AGW and the steepness of the down curve.
But won't lower prices just encourage consumption?

Encourage other people to consume now sure, and it will all be consumed too. But the reduced price can prevent an extra hole being drilled for a short time, which to the tiniest degree can delays things.
Keith_McClary wrote:If you really want to keep it in the ground, buy up reserves and don't produce them. You could set up a fund similar to the "buy an acre of rainforest" (World Land Trust) concept. You could call it "World Oil Trust".

You only really own what you can protect and hold, or pay people to protect. I don't think I could defend my own home let alone a rainforest or oil well from starving hordes. I hope others can though.
AdTheNad
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed 22 Dec 2010, 07:47:48

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby smiley » Sat 21 Apr 2012, 19:08:00

But I suppose an argument could be made for burning it all ASAP, assuming pathological narcissism is your guiding philosophy (which it is for many posters here). Climate and future generations be damned, it's all about me, me, me, now, now, now! The morality of a two year old.


Squandering resources is egocentric in nature. Claiming the moral high ground, now that is a very narcissistic trait, as I'm sure Ovidus would agree. :wink:

As for conservation, I am actually doing quite a bit. But I refuse to sacrifice on those things which make my life worthwhile. That one life I get is a bit too precious to waste.

Am I doing enough? Maybe, maybe not, certainly not by the standards of the hardcore conservationists.

Saving energy is not pointless, but it becomes so when it gets in the way of living.

It's about where you draw the line.
---------------------
Dead Kennedies - Where do ya draw the line
....
Where do ya draw the line
I'm not telling you I'm asking you
Ever notice hard line radicals
Can go on start trips too
Where no one's pure and right
Except themselves "I'm cleansed of the system."
('Cept when my amp needs electric power)
Or-"The Party Line says no.
Feminists can't wear fishnets."
You wanna help stop war?
Well, we reject your application
You crack too many jokes
And you eat meat
What better way to turn people off
Than to twist ideas for change
Into one more church
That forgets we're all human beings
...
User avatar
smiley
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2274
Joined: Fri 16 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Europe

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 22 Apr 2012, 02:13:00

AdTheNad wrote:I don't think I could defend my own home let alone a rainforest or oil well from starving hordes. I hope others can though.
Oil wells tend to be located in the middle of nowhere, far from the nearest refinery (because the nearby ones were pumped dry first). Your average horde probably can't tell the difference between a capped well and a Christmas Tree.
Facebook knows you're a dog.
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7342
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 22 Apr 2012, 18:14:18

Saving money and reducing the need to chase the carrot are reward enough for me to save energy.
Ready to turn Zombies into WWOOFers
User avatar
Shaved Monkey
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2333
Joined: Wed 30 Mar 2011, 01:43:28

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby Roy » Mon 23 Apr 2012, 07:28:18

Saving money and reducing the need to chase the carrot are reward enough for me to save energy.


THIS^^^
A nations military should only be used in a nations self defense, not to entertain liberal cravings for shaping poor nations into images of themselves by force. -- Eastbay

Shooting the messenger is typical when you are incapable of arguing against them. -- Airline Pilot
Roy
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri 18 Jun 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Getting in touch with my Inner Redneck

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby eastbay » Mon 23 Apr 2012, 21:09:56

PeakOiler wrote:I've saved about $25,000 since 2003 by driving a more efficient vehicle. I would hardly call that pointless.


Me, too. Plus another few grand keeping the house cool in winter and warm in summer. Plus, saved another few grand by not ever using the clothes dryer.

But in the long run, for humanity, it only serves to kick the can down the road a bit.
Got Dharma?

Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
User avatar
eastbay
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7186
Joined: Sat 18 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: One Mile From the Columbia River

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby Ferretlover » Tue 24 Apr 2012, 17:55:35

It all depends on one's perspective.

IE: If you live in First World country, an individual who tries to save energy is infinitisimal in the big old scheme of things--sort of like the amount of time mankind has been on this planet versus the age of the planet. The energy will keep coming until one day it just stops!
But, if one lives off the grid, by choice, or due to the world situation, and they are responsible for collecting the wood or generating, in some way, the energy, then it is not pointless.
"Open the gates of hell!" ~Morgan Freeman's character in the movie, Olympus Has Fallen.
Ferretlover
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 5852
Joined: Wed 13 Jun 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Hundreds of miles further inland

Re: Saving energy is pointless

Unread postby spot5050 » Wed 25 Apr 2012, 19:39:29

dolanbaker wrote:All energy conservation has achieved is to flatten the peak!

I agree.
spot5050
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue 07 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Cheshire, England

PreviousNext

Return to Conservation & Efficiency

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests