Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Saudi Aramco IPO

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 21 Feb 2019, 14:14:59

The financials are not released to the public until the prospectus is made available following the official filing of the IPO.


And that is my exact point. I've been pointing out issues and concerns about the ARAMCO IPO and after four years the Saudi Aramco IPO still hasn't been filed and the financials still haven't been made public.

as to the word "ass" used in context of a bodily part....if you think this is somehow "potty mouth" I suggest you grow up and enter the adult world.


Of course you are being a potty mouth when you make gratuitous posts about your ass. Your ass has nothing to do with this subject. I suggest you grow up and learn to keep yourself under control to the point that you can talk about these topics without being a potty mouth.

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22777
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 21 Feb 2019, 16:36:59

And that is my exact point. I've been pointing out issues and concerns about the ARAMCO IPO and after four years the Saudi Aramco IPO still hasn't been filed and the financials still haven't been made public.


there are no issues or concerns as far as Aramco is concerned....they completed all the work with regards to reserves, finances, corporate structure. As the CEO said they could issue the prospectus and hence kick off the IPO anytime they wanted to but now want to incorporate the SABIC deal.
You seem to think that everything has to in the public domain some indefinite time prior to shares trading. That isn't the case at all. As I said the lead banks and advisors have all the data and have been reviewing it and putting together the prospectus. The prospectus is issued shortly before trading (a week or so) and that is the first time the public has access to the information. What that means is the IPO could happen anytime they felt appropriate....the work has been done. If you went to a butcher and did not see any rib eyes in the display case does that mean there aren't any? No, of course not, the cow was euthanized at the packing plant, the butcher cut up the side of beef into the various cuts and has them in the freezer or sitting on his chopping block. They are ready to be put in the display case, the butcher has just decided not to do it right yet. Doesn't mean the rib eyes don't exist nor that they aren't ready for sale.

Your ass has nothing to do with this subject. I suggest you grow up and learn to keep yourself under control to the point that you can talk about these topics without being a potty mouth.


good God....the term "cover your ass" is hardly swearing unless you are 4 years old or English is a second language for you. Obama used the phrase himself when speaking to the press. But help yourself to whining about it if you want to be a delicate tulip, no one is stopping you.

Definition: cover your ass: "foresee and avoid the possibility of attack or criticism", or "the bureaucratic technique of averting future accusations of policy error or wrongdoing by deflecting responsibility in advance".

I've can't remember hearing someone say ....cover your buttocks or cover your gluteus maximus :roll:
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 21 Feb 2019, 18:55:28

there are no issues or concerns as far as Aramco is concerned.


Aramco isn't the one who will be buying shares at a future IPO. The question is whether or not potential investors have issues or concerns about Aramco....and of course they do. Major investors aren't going to invest in Saudi Aramco without knowing the facts about their oil reserves and financials.

...they completed all the work with regards to reserves, finances, corporate structure.


All that work was done years ago, before ARAMCO has delayed the IPO again and again. That work will have to be redone and updated to reflect present conditions.

Just consider oil reserves----ARAMCO is producing about 4 billion bbls of oil per year. That means by 2021, when they now project doing the IPO, they will have produced ca. 20+ billion bbls since they first announced they would do an IPO. Obviously their oil reserve data and financial projections need to be updated before they can attempt to do an IPO again.

Do you get it now?

ass ... ass....


Your potty mouth is overflowing again. This time please press your lips tightly together before you flush and see if you can contain the leakage. Thanks.
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22777
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 22 Feb 2019, 14:14:28

....entering into a lease for E&P would cause Saudi Arabia to have to put their IPO on hold.


Thats nonsense.

First of all, ARAMCO has already put their IPO on hold ...again....this time announcing the IPO will be delayed until at least 2021. So even without any increase in foreign E & P activity, the IPO is already on hold for at least two more years.

Second, ARAMCO recently announced they will start to develop oil reserves outside of KSA. Nowhere did ARAMCO say this would involve starting up their own foreign E & P division and purchasing foreign leases etc. It seems more likely to me that if they want to expand their operations overseas that they will move to acquire an existing foreign oil company and take over their oil reserves, just as they moved to take over SABIC when they wanted to push farther into the chemicals business. We'll have to wait and see what exactly ARAMCO does, but if they do take over a foreign oil company after they finish their takeover of SABIC, then presumably it would take them a couple of years to fully digest that purchase, just as its taking them a couple of years to get the SABIC deal done.

Get it now?

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22777
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 22 Feb 2019, 20:43:15

Aramco isn't the one who will be buying shares at a future IPO. The question is whether or not potential investors have issues or concerns about Aramco....and of course they do. Major investors aren't going to invest in Saudi Aramco without knowing the facts about their oil reserves and financials. 


Which again they will get in the prospectus but no more than about 1-2 weeks before shares start trading. They can make a decision whether they want to invest or not but from Aramco’s perspective they have done all the work and just have to put out the prospectus (as has been said by the CEO of Aramco). Oh, I forgot you think he is lying :roll:

All that work was done years ago, before ARAMCO has delayed the IPO again and again. That work will have to be redone and updated to reflect present conditions. 


At this exact moment nothing has changed, all the work that was done to value the corporation including financials, reserves, corporate governance docs etc are valid because right at this moment the corporation is exactly the same as it was 2 years ago for the purposes of valuation as the banks see it.
If they execute the SABIC deal then that would require a redo on the financials because it is a material change but reserves and corporate docs will remain intact as they are updated quarterly.

Just consider oil reserves----ARAMCO is producing about 4 billion bbls of oil per year. That means by 2021, when they now project doing the IPO, they will have produced ca. 20+ billion bbls since they first announced they would do an IPO. Obviously their oil reserve data and financial projections need to be updated before they can attempt to do an IPO again.


No, not the case. The reserve reports created by D&M and GCA are fixed in time and provide projections forward usually through the economic life of reserves. The financial valuation automatically looks at point forward, what was spent or produced prior to the prospectus being issued isn’t considered. I have seen one RTO that accepted a third party reserve report from 2 years previous simply because the changes to reserves were captured in the annual filings (in that case 51 -101). In terms of updating financials all that is required is including the last year end financials which will point out current cash on hand, debt, and past years production. If companies had to redo all the work that goes into an IPO every few months you would never see them done. IN short, all of that work that was done is directly usable whenever they decide to execute on the prospectus. And that is exactly what the CEO of Aramco has said a couple of weeks ago to the press. Oh, I forgot you think he is lying. :roll:

Second, ARAMCO recently announced they will start to develop oil reserves outside of KSA. Nowhere did ARAMCO say this would involve starting up their own foreign E & P division and purchasing foreign leases etc. It seems more likely to me that if they want to expand their operations overseas that they will move to acquire an existing foreign oil company and take over their oil reserves, just as they moved to take over SABIC when they wanted to push farther into the chemicals business.
 

If they go overseas they will be required to set up subsidiaries for tax purposes, just like every other NOC and you have no idea how they will enter into the oil and gas business, numerous NOC’s have entered into foreign operations by entering into bid rounds and/or farming in on existing acreage. It is a standard method. And Aramco did not move to “take over” SABIC, they are planning on buying shares in the company not acquiring the company outright which are two different things as I explained several times up thread. As I pointed out several times here, given the financial size of Aramco any company they might acquire outright would have to be worth tens of billions of dollars to make enough of a material change that it would require changes to a prospectus. There aren’t a handful of companies with that sort of value and I can’t see an example of one that would contemplate a sale to Saudi Arabia unless the offer was for some ridiculous uplift on their share price. It might happen but extremely unlikely for a number of reasons.

Your potty mouth is overflowing again. This time please press your lips tightly together before you flush and see if you can contain the leakage. Thanks.


As I said grow up

Image
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 23 Feb 2019, 01:57:12

from Aramco’s perspective they have done all the work and just have to put out the prospectus


Of course the work they did will be four years out of date by the time the IPO happens in 2021, if it even happens in 2021.

But I'm sure the investors won't mind if ARAMCO sends them a prospectus with financials and information of oil reserves that isn't up to date.

At this exact moment nothing has changed, all the work that was done to value the corporation including financials, reserves, corporate governance docs etc are valid because right at this moment the corporation is exactly the same as it was 2 years ago for the purposes of valuation as the banks see it.


Right-O. The banks also won't care if the financials and oil reserve data is four years out date.

------------------------

Jeez, what a bunch of tripe of you are pushing.

OF COURSE the potential Investors and banks are going to want both the financials AND the reserve information to be up-to-date if the IPO happens in 2021. No one is going to accept data that is four years out-of-date.

AND what about the SEC? If ARAMCO tries to list in the US, SEC rules REQUIRE quarterly financial reports and they require the approval by the SEC before the IPO can happen. ARAMCO will have to meet that standard if they want to list-----data that is 16 quarters old just won't be acceptable. And the oil reserve data will be completely wrong because by 2021 ARAMCO will have produced 16 BILLION bels of oil since their reserves were evaluated. Clearly an entirely new and uptimes to date review will have to be done just to get SEC approval.

I know you are math challenged but apparently you also don't understand the concept of time either. The SEC requires up-to-date quarterly reports....ARAMCO can't trot out data that is four years out of date and expect the SEC to ignore its own rules and approve their IPO.

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22777
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 23 Feb 2019, 13:20:40

But I'm sure the investors won't mind if ARAMCO sends them a prospectus with financials and information of oil reserves that isn't up to date.


I didn’t say it would be out of date, what I said is there would be no need for a full on two year process of doing the reserves audit and financial audit of a corporation that had never reported previously. Now that all of that work has been done all that would be necessary is the incorporation of year end reports. Those year end reports speak to changes to financials as well as changes to reserves over that period of time. This is a simple adjustment and doesn’t require new full start from scratch audits. The finances will be audited on an annual basis anyway, a process that takes a couple of weeks in my experience. So not a big deal as you seem to want it to be and a part of any businesses ongoing requirements.

OF COURSE the potential Investors and banks are going to want both the financials AND the reserve information to be up-to-date if the IPO happens in 2021. No one is going to accept data that is four years out-of-date. 


As I said it will be….it’s called year end financial and reserve reporting. But it will not require a full redo of the reserve and financial audits and the corporate governance issues have already been settled.

AND what about the SEC? If ARAMCO tries to list in the US, SEC rules REQUIRE quarterly financial reports and they require the approval by the SEC before the IPO can happen. ARAMCO will have to meet that standard if they want to list-----data that is 16 quarters old just won't be acceptable. And the oil reserve data will be completely wrong because by 2021 ARAMCO will have produced 16 BILLION bels of oil since their reserves were evaluated. Clearly an entirely new and uptimes to date review will have to be done just to get SEC approval.


Cleary you don’t understand what has been done, nor what will be required. Have you ever looked at a year end filing? The prospectus will include up to date information, it will almost certainly not require full on recreation of the major auditing that was required to get Aramco to where they are now. I’ve updated reserves for companies for filing to the SEC and to TSX on several occasions. It is one table in a 51-101 filing…that’s it. The financials are updated annually and the SEC will use those updates on top of the original audit to back up the material in the prospectus which will be an up to date picture of the reserves and the financials.

I know you are math challenged but apparently you also don't understand the concept of time either. The SEC requires up-to-date quarterly reports....ARAMCO can't trot out data that is four years out of date and expect the SEC to ignore its own rules and approve their IPO.


Apparently, you know nothing about public versus private companies nor what appears in a prospectus or reserves report. The SEC requires quarterly reports from public companies. That means that if Aramco were to list on the NYSE they would be required to file a quarterly report the following quarter not before they are listed. The prospectus only requires the last 3 years of year end financials which, of course, Aramco will have along with their major financial audit which highlights all of the business aspects, debt, cash flow etc of the corporation. Of course, Aramco will update their finances every quarter once listed…..do you not think they do that already? They have a year-end financial report that they made a portion of public last year, this isn't a fly by night outfit. Somehow you seem to think these guys are business rubes. The quarterly filings do not require reserve statements other than an indication of the volume of sales. The annual report updates reserves. Once listed Aramco will be under the same guidelines as any other public company which includes an annual audit of at least 10% of their reserve base on a rotating basis. This is not the same thing as the major reserve audit that was conducted by GCA and D&M (done from scratch) but is an update to this previous work.

The bottom line is all of the work done to take Aramco which was is a private company that has never disclosed its reserves or finances and was not set up on a governance perspective to trade anywhere, has been completed to the point where they can issue a prospectus whenever they feel appropriate (as the CEO of Aramco stated). That prospectus will include updates to the audits (both finances and reserves) and that information is recorded by Aramco. The finances receive an obligatory audit regarding the reported activities of the year and the reserves recieve an update based on the notion of reserve balance (changes in reserve categories with corrections for produced volumes). This is not some massive piece of work that you seem to want everyone to believe....it is simple and takes very little time given the data will be readily available.
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 23 Feb 2019, 18:08:26

Apparently, you know nothing about public versus private companies nor what appears in a prospectus or reserves report. The SEC requires quarterly reports from public companies.


The problem here is that you know nothing about the role the SEC plays in evaluating and approving IPOs.

SEC requirements don't start AFTER a company goes public. The SEC has to approve the IPO of any company BEFORE it can public. This means the SEC has to see up-to-date financial data and asset data from the company BEFORE it will approve the IPO. And the SEC isn't going to be satisfied with four year old analyses of ARAMCO's reserves as you claim. The SEC will want to see full and transparent data from the last year and the most recent quarter. The whole point of the SEC approval process is to certify that the company is complying with all the SEC standards BEFORE it goes public.

Do you get it now?

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22777
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 23 Feb 2019, 19:18:09

The problem here is that you know nothing about the role the SEC plays in evaluating and approving IPOs.


well I've been involved in several in the US under the SEC and a couple in Canada under the TSX...how many have you been involved in? :roll:

SEC requirements don't start AFTER a company goes public. The SEC has to approve the IPO of any company BEFORE it can public. This means the SEC has to see up-to-date financial data and asset data from the company BEFORE it will approve the IPO. And the SEC isn't going to be satisfied with four year old analyses of ARAMCO's reserves as you claim. The SEC will want to see full and transparent data from the last year and the most recent quarter. The whole point of the SEC approval process is to certify that the company is complying with all the SEC standards BEFORE it goes public.


OK moron, why don't you read what I wrote above. The SEC is not getting a 4 year old assessment they are getting up to date assessments as I outlined above in some detail. And I said they get the last 3 years financials (they do not require the latest quarter)and they get the prospectus along with backup data used in creating the prospectus. It is pretty clear that you do not understand the purpose and intent of the SEC when it comes to an IPO. The SEC is simply interested in making sure the company has fully disclosed (not deficient in explanation) and that they have adhered to accounting procedures. They specifically make a point of indicating they do not review the companies filings for correctness and they do not attest to the completeness or correctness of the data filed by the company...that is still the companies responsibility as far as the SEC is concerned. The SEC is not conducting another full audit as you seem to think where they go through all of the reserve data and financial data looking for errors or deficiencies..they count on the year-end reports (3-5 years) that form part of the prospectus (as I said above). For a foreign company, they are simply required to file a registration statement (File F-1) which is mainly the prospectus along with some backup data. The prospectus once filed with the SEC becomes available to the public on EDGAR and once the registration is approved by the SEC the shares begin trading. The approval process may entail some questions asked by the SEC and necessary responses from the company but the process is actually very quick. As an example Shopify (a Canadian company) wanted to list on the NYSE. They submitted their registration (Form F-1) on April 14th of 2015 and their shares were trading on May 21. This is hardly a significant delay in anyone's assessment. Given the lead banks on the Aramco file have done literally hundreds of IPOs in various jurisdictions you can bet that everything necessary will be in the prospectus.

The point here is that the original reserve and financial audits were long drawn out affairs (well over a year and a half) which was necessary given Aramco was a private company that had never reported anywhere and was operating under accounting and reserve assessment methodologies that were not standard elsewhere. Those audits having been completed put Aramco in a position to execute an IPO. Any updates to their reserve or financial situations are handled through the companies own analysis which will include an annual financial audit (a few weeks worth of work) and an update to reserves audit (again a simple procedure as it doesn't entail building everything up from first principles or reviewing all of the background data, it only requires looking at any additions or reserve category movements and production). This is not a huge time-consuming effort as you seem to be wanting everyone to believe.
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 23 Feb 2019, 21:02:06

moron...


You are a moron AND an idiot. OK...satisfied? After patiently tolerating your idiotic ad homs for days now I've had enough.

Is there any chance of you a making a post without lacing it with idiocy AND ad homs? Apparently not.

OK...lets get back to the subject under discussion.

The point here is that the original reserve and financial audits were long drawn out affairs (well over a year and a half) which was necessary given Aramco was a private company that had never reported anywhere and was operating under accounting and reserve assessment methodologies that were not standard elsewhere. Those audits having been completed put Aramco in a position to execute an IPO.


That was true several years ago when they were actively working on doing the IPO. But ARAMCO didn't get their IPO done in a timely fashion, and earlier this month they postponed the IPO (again), this time to 2021 at the earliest.

ARAMCO's reserves and financial condition will not be the same in 2021 as they were 3-4 years ago, necessitating a major update. It will be up to the SEC at that time to decide if the IPO submission ARAMCO makes meets their criteria for listing, and then up to investors to decide if the information merits an investment.

Of course all of this is hypothetical and depends on ARAMCO actually going ahead with the IPO in 2021. The original rationale for the IPO was to raise enough money to allow KSA to modernize. But the bonds for the SABIC purchase will bring in roughly the amount of money Prince Muhammad wanted for his modernization process. Thus the original reason for the IPO no longer exists.

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22777
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 23 Feb 2019, 23:43:49

That was true several years ago when they were actively working on doing the IPO. But ARAMCO didn't get their IPO done in a timely fashion, and earlier this month they postponed the IPO (again), this time to 2021 at the earliest.
 

Pay attention, the CEO of Aramco was interviewed just a few weeks ago and he said:

“Everything that is required for listing is there. If the government decided, it could be done in no time,
that was a statement of a few weeks ago, not several years ago. The reserves audit was just released officially in its' signed form to Aramco.

ARAMCO's reserves and financial condition will not be the same in 2021 as they were 3-4 years ago, necessitating a major update. It will be up to the SEC at that time to decide if the IPO submission ARAMCO makes meets their criteria for listing, and then up to investors to decide if the information merits an investment.


Once again you are just repeating the same nonsense without actually reading what I wrote. Apparently having the last word, whether it is a stupid word or just repeats what I have said upthread pretending it is your own idea is all that matters to you.
As I said 4 times now there is no “major update” required. As I pointed out the SEC does not redo the technical assessment. The major reserves and financial audits are done (which I’ve pointed out the CEO of Aramco has stated) and those coupled with the subsequent year-end updates is all that is required (and Aramco will be doing those as a normal course of business). There is no major update required. How do I know this? I’ve done these before. The SEC is only interested in making sure they have the correct submission, they do not review whether it is correct or not other than from whether everything is there or not. The official requirements are 3-year financials (in some cases with foreign entities 5 years). Those financials include reserves, production, cash flow, debt etc. up to date. For some ridiculous reason you want everyone here to believe that Aramco will have to start from scratch and recreate the 1.5 year long process of reserve and financial audits. Sorry, that is just stupid and shows a healthy misunderstanding of the process. But go ahead and repeat yourself again ignoring what I’ve pointed out
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 24 Feb 2019, 01:23:31

As I said 4 times now there is no “major update” required.


Somehow I doubt the SEC will take your word for it that nothing significant has changed that requires an update with regards to Aramco's financial position or in their oil fields in the four years since the prior assessment was done, in spite of producing 16 billion barrels of oil since then and taking on huge amounts of new debt for the first time in ARAMCO's history by issuing tens of billions of dollars worth of bonds so they could buy SABIC.

But you think no update needed. Right-O. Saudi Aramco had no debt and thanks to the Bonds they issue they are going to have tens of billions of dollars of debt that will need to be serviced, but there is no need to update those pesky financial reports. Right-O, crockdoc. Right-O.

....the SEC does not redo the technical assessment.


Of course the SEC doesn't do or redo technical assessments. The SEC also doesn't compile up-to-date financial data for companies that want to go public. The job of the SEC is to review and evaluate the submissions that companies give to it to see that they meet the standards of disclosure and probity required of public companies in the US.

For some ridiculous reason you want everyone here to believe that Aramco will have to start from scratch and recreate the 1.5 year long process of reserve and financial audits.


For some ridiculous reason your reading comprehension skills are so poor you don't know what the word "update" means. I suggest you look up the word "update" in a dictionary and learn what it means. Then you might have a chance of understanding what an "update" is.

Sorry, that is just stupid


You should be sorry. Your inability to understand simple English words is very stupid indeed. As is your continual retreat into the use of ad homs. And perhaps the most stupid thing you are doing is endlessly disputing my suggestion that ARAMCO will have to "update" the IPO paperwork they have already prepared to reflect the huge changes in their oil reserves and financial status that have occurred.

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22777
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 24 Feb 2019, 11:12:59

Somehow I doubt the SEC will take your word for it that nothing significant has changed that requires an update with regards to Aramco's financial position or in their oil fields in the four years since the prior assessment was done, in spite of producing 16 billion barrels of oil since then and taking on huge amounts of new debt for the first time in ARAMCO's history by issuing tens of billions of dollars worth of bonds so they could buy SABIC. 

But you think no update needed. Right-O. Saudi Aramco had no debt and thanks to the Bonds they issue they are going to have tens of billions of dollars of debt that will need to be serviced, but there is no need to update those pesky financial reports. Right-O, crockdoc. Right-O.


OK. I guess you are completely illiterate. Read my posts. There are updates to the main audits continuously through year end reporting. That is what the SEC requires for a registration letter to approve the listing. This is not a huge amount of work on the part of Aramco, it is normal course of business as they construct the year end reports as a matter of course. Financial audits are conducted annually by companies but they do not take the 1.5 years that the major audit of Aramco did because now they have all that information at hand, it is simply updated with new information from the annual reporting. Any update to the reserve audit would take days or weeks not 1.5 years as all that is required is to look at classification change, new discoveries or acquisitions and production. This in itself is something that falls out of the data Aramco collects religiously…it takes minutes to produce the information and very little time to do an updated report. But the SEC doesn’t require that, all they require is the 3 – 5 years of latest financials which would be in audited form. Those would include reserve updates. What about this are you not understanding? The SEC is getting the most recent information, there is full disclosure in an audited fashion. That is all they care about. If you don’t believe me go to the EDGAR site and look up the requirements for IPO’s and RTO’s, I’m sure it is all laid out there somewhere. As to bonds they have issued, those are captured in the financial audit which is current as to bonds they may issue in the future those are captured in the annual reporting that Aramco conducts and the last 3 - 5 years of that are provided to the SEC as part of the registration application.

As is your continual retreat into the use of ad homs. And perhaps the most stupid thing you are doing is endlessly disputing my suggestion that ARAMCO will have to "update" the IPO paperwork they have already prepared to reflect the huge changes in their oil reserves and financial status that have occurred. 


Once again you change your story throughout the course of your argument. You were claiming that everything would have to be “redone” which would mean a significant delay. Here is what you said:

 Clearly an entirely new and uptimes to date review will have to be done just to get SEC approval.


All that work was done years ago, before ARAMCO has delayed the IPO again and again. That work will have to be redone and updated to reflect present conditions. 


Now you are claiming it is only an update. Redoing the entire audits versus a simple update are completely different things one took 1.5 years to complete the other takes weeks if that as all the work is done as part of ongoing business.

To summarize. The updated information is there as a matter of course. Aramco simply submit the last 3 -5 years of financial audits…work that gets done anyways. The original reserve and financial audit reports are completed, they do not have to be redone. Aramco will have very little work to adjust the current prospectus even if they wait three years to do so. The exception to that is if they complete a Sabic share purchase agreement and the CEO of Aramco has outlined in detail what that entails in terms of work and timing. Without the SABIC deal the timing would be – Aramco reviews the offer terms in the prospectus and adjusts, they attach recent financials and reflect that information in the tables in the prospectus (a months work at most) – Aramco submits the registration letter to the SEC and without deficiencies in information one month later the shares are trading. So 2 months is not the huge delay that you have implied. There is nothing to suggest that the statements made by the CEO of Aramco are in any way incorrect regarding their ability to execute an IPO is a timely manner when they choose to do so.
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 24 Feb 2019, 12:14:29

Now you are claiming it is only an update.


I've always said ARAMCO is going to have to update its financials and assets to reflect current conditions. Thats what you've been disputing for days now, in case you've forgotten whats in your own posts. Its bad enough you don't understand what you read in my posts....you apparently don't understand whats in your own posts either.

----------------------------------

Look up the thread. You quoted me saying the word "update" in your post above... before going off on another deranged rant about how they wouldn't have to update things.

Well, once again, I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "update."

Oh what the heck...I'll do it for you:

update
VERB

[WITH OBJECT]
1Make (something) more modern or up to date.


Now will you come to your senses and acknowledge the obvious.

ARAMCO is going to have to update its financials and assets data before they submit their IPO in 2021...and thats assuming they even do it.

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22777
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 24 Feb 2019, 14:02:22

I've always said ARAMCO is going to have to update its financials and assets to reflect current conditions. Thats what you've been disputing for days now, in case you've forgotten whats in your own posts. Its bad enough you don't understand what you read in my posts....you apparently don't understand whats in your own posts either.


no what you have been suggesting is they would have to redo the analyses that has already been done....I posted the quotes that stated that. I have been saying all along in each and every one of my posts that updates to the reserves and financials that are now audited are done on an annual basis by Aramco whether they are submitting an IPO or not...it is ongoing business, just like any other company. That information is included in the annual financials and that is all the SEC asks for along with supporting data. It is not something special or particularly onerous that they would have to do when the prospectus is submitted as you have suggested. But nice try and changing your arguments. :roll:

ARAMCO is going to have to update its financials and assets data before they submit their IPO in 2021...and thats assuming they even do it.


these are updated on an ongoing basis. Have you never ever read an annual report? This is not some special project they will have to do. I outlined exactly what it would take. Your whole point here has been this will be a long drawn out process where they will have to spend a lot of time redoing everything that will cause serious delays. That isn't the case at all, it is a simple procedure using data they already have as I have outlined and as the CEO of Aramco implies. But keep changing your story and making up rules and requirements that don't exist, it's entertaining. :roll:
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 24 Feb 2019, 17:06:45

Aramco.... annual report....


Again you are exposing your surprising ignorance on this subject.

Saudi Aramco, like most other private companies, doesn't publish annual reports like those issued by publicly traded companies. Aramco generally doesn't release quarterly or annual information on its sales or profits or assets the way publicly traded companies are required to do. In fact, Saudi ARAMCO rarely releases any data at all.

Some ARAMCO financial data supposedly leaked in 2017, but ARAMCO immediately disputed the numbers in the media report.

saudi-aramco-financials-potentially-revealed-in-disputed-leak

This means, if the IPO goes ahead in 2021, ARAMCO, for the first time in its history, will be publicly issuing quarterly and annual reports detailing their finances and assets, including oil reserves.

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22777
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 24 Feb 2019, 18:12:39

Saudi Aramco, like most other private companies, doesn't publish annual reports like those issued by publicly traded companies. Aramco generally doesn't release quarterly or annual information on its sales or profits or assets the way publicly traded companies are required to do. In fact, Saudi ARAMCO rarely releases any data at all.


well in fact they do publish their annual review. You can download the 2017 annual review from their website. I did not say they publish their finances (in fact I didn't say they publish anything, I said they create those reports internally which they do), why in Gods name would a private company publish their finances? Public companies publish them because they are required to. And just because they don't publish them does not mean they don't keep financial records in accordance with international accounting standards. Their finances were just audited, which means the changes to the way they account will have been implemented already. Like every other large private company they will audit their finances every year because they still have shareholders, the main one being the government. If for some reason you think Aramco doesn't keep financial records then you are really out to lunch.

This means, if the IPO goes ahead in 2021, ARAMCO, for the first time in its history, will be publicly issuing quarterly and annual reports detailing their finances and assets, including oil reserves.


so what? What does that have to do with your suggestion that filing for an IPO in the US will require a full redo of their reserves and financial audits? The answer is it doesn't, it is simply a statement of the obvious.
And I suggest you familiarize yourself with the nature of listing around the world. Aramco if listed in New York would be a foreign entity and is not under the same requirements for quarterly reporting as a US-based entity. If they are dual listed then the requirements are even less. Canadian companies listed on the TSX and then dual listed on a US exchange as an example are exempt from many of the requirements faced by US-based companies including the need to file certain documents.
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 24 Feb 2019, 21:35:35

they do publish their annual review.....


Get real.

The ARAMCO annual review is totally different then an annual report---its just a public relations vehicle. There isn't even a hint of financial data in the Aramco annual report.

Your attempt to conflate the Aramco annual review with a conventional annual report is ridiculous.

so what?


So the facts are clear. Aramco has never published an annual report and your attempt to conflate the Aramco annual review with a conventional annual report is misguided and wrong.

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22777
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 24 Feb 2019, 23:44:11

The ARAMCO annual review is totally different then an annual report---its just a public relations vehicle. There isn't even a hint of financial data in the Aramco annual report.


UH, when was the last time you looked at an annual report? I worked for several intermediate O&G companies years ago and this was exactly what construed our annual report. Look at any of the Intermediate to Major O&G companies with respect to their annual report to shareholders. Did you even bother to go to the part that breaks out production, reserves, sales etc? Apparently not. All that is missing is the detailed financials which, as I said, would not be expected from a private company. Do you actually expect a private company to post financial data? Why would they do that? This is exactly the type of annual report that is being sent out these days....glossy, speaks to what they are doing and puts some detail about the business at the end. The public companies include their finances, the private ones do not.

So the facts are clear. Aramco has never published an annual report and your attempt to conflate the Aramco annual review with a conventional annual report is misguided and wrong.


Do I actually have to start posting links to annual reports/reviews that are absolutely no different? Here's one for you
https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/investors/annual-report and there are hundreds more just like it.

What is bizarre here is you continue to make claims about all sorts of things, SEC requirements, the way debt is issued, annual reports etc ( one only has to go up thread to count the number of false claims) that are all just completely based on made up crap. Familiarize yourself with the actual requirements before you post this nonsense. You may think it makes you look smart, it doesn't.
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7206
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 26 Feb 2019, 19:18:55

Yo crockdoc

The SEC requires publicly traded companies to issue audited annual reports on their financial data.

The annual reviews issued by ARAMCO contain no financial data.

Do you understand the differance now? Please wag your tail if you get it

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22777
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

PreviousNext

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests