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Rural America fades

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby sparky » Mon 10 Apr 2017, 09:43:14

.
a junkie has some perception of reality ,
it's just that the urge to get the next fix override his common sense
the TV viewer is transported in an imaginary world where there is only an imaginary reality
there is no more common sense
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 10 Apr 2017, 09:54:30

The Matrix, not the phony slomo crap, the premis that we live in a make believe world of false images.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 16 Dec 2017, 18:43:09

Why Are America's Farmers Killing Themselves in Record Numbers?
My theory is the combination of economic distress, witnessing unsustainable practices in Agriculture and maybe poor health from exposure to pesticides could all be contributing
http://economichardship.org/archive//aj ... 70ppbqq74j
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby evilgenius » Sun 17 Dec 2017, 13:04:55

I don't think that you guys who want to retire in the sticks have any idea what it's like to get old. I see it almost every day. I work around those people. You won't be out chopping wood. What you had best think about is what kind of help you can get in rural Methville. There's one in every state, even the one you want to move to. Small towns with any notion of success won't have any room for you. There, you had better contribute or die. Their model doesn't include you.

Speaking of not being included, this country ought to face the dissatisfaction of its young now, while there is still time for you soon to be oldsters to have a shot at getting the help you'll need when the time comes. Just because the best place to get that help will be in the cities doesn't mean it will exist. The millennials have a lot of resentment for your generation, and they will eventually be in charge,- right about the time you are the most vulnerable. We've treated our young the way that unions have treated theirs, as sacrifices. When you protect the old and don't think about the young you fail down the road. In this case failing means not having what it takes to support the heaviest of the lot, the oldsters, when the time comes.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 17 Dec 2017, 13:20:35

evilgenius wrote:I don't think that you guys who want to retire in the sticks have any idea what it's like to get old. I see it almost every day. I work around those people. You won't be out chopping wood. What you had best think about is what kind of help you can get in rural Methville. There's one in every state, even the one you want to move to. Small towns with any notion of success won't have any room for you. There, you had better contribute or die. Their model doesn't include you.

Speaking of not being included, this country ought to face the dissatisfaction of its young now, while there is still time for you soon to be oldsters to have a shot at getting the help you'll need when the time comes. Just because the best place to get that help will be in the cities doesn't mean it will exist. The millennials have a lot of resentment for your generation, and they will eventually be in charge,- right about the time you are the most vulnerable.

Are you talking about people who want something for nothing (i.e. help paid for via Medicare, paid for with someone else's money), or are you talking about a trade of help for money, like any other transaction voluntarily made in a functioning society? (Because I don't plan to coerce anyone or beg from anyone -- if it comes to that and I can't fend for myself, I'll take care of the issue myself, thank you very much.)

Society seems to have accepted and even appreciated the product of my work, and the aid of my funds for charity, my taxes, and my financial support of friends and family, all part of my contribution for the betterment of society (some required, most not).

...

I'm just trying to understand what we're talking about here. I understand and sympathize with anyone's problem with their paychecks going for unlimited "help" of every group imaginable, regardless of economic consequences, by the way.

If universally resenting an entire generation as being good or bad or "the problem" or not is how people want to roll, that's fine, but it's pretty delusional. People of all generations vary greatly.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 17 Dec 2017, 13:40:51

evilgenius wrote:I don't think that you guys who want to retire in the sticks have any idea what it's like to get old. I


Being a benevolent patron is working for us. $ 12 a day is the average salary for ranch hands here who chop our wood, clear our trails, harvest our coffee, clean out ditches, repair river crossings after heavy rains.

We treat them with respect and humble ourselves in gratefulness for the calories they burn every day in their hard labor to keep our operation going.

My father who grew up on a farm in Eastern Pennsylvania told us about a family that lived with them and had a small simple cabin. This family worked as a laborer on my dad's farm. They received a very small salary but had the security of a roof over their heads, food and a guaranteed meager income.

Question. How do you think the immigration policy of deporting illegal immigrants has affected many farmers in America today?

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... ns/529008/

As in the rest of the United States, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, as much as half of the farm workforce in New York is undocumented. The fear of deportation looming over Hudson Valley farmworkers is also impacting farmers—what they’re willing to plant and what they think they’ll be able to harvest.

“My ancestors are Irish and they were called all sorts of names,” Pete, a 58-year-old farmer, told me. He said the country has swung back around to how it was a century ago. “Now people say Hispanics are taking their jobs,” Pete said. “Come on. You can’t get a kid who can flip a burger to come here and do this job for $15 an hour. If we had a workforce that was willing to do this work, I’d hire them, but we don’t.” A 2014 American Farm Bureau study backs that up: It shows that unemployed Americans regularly shun farm work, even preferring to stay unemployed.


This is not a topic of political divisiveness. Under both Obama and Trump deportations have grown. Obama deported while talking sweet. Trump deports while demonizing immigrants. In either case, this has been bad for American farmers.

Where is the strong advocacy for American farmers that supports immigration for farm laborers? It doesn't exist.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 17 Dec 2017, 15:35:25

Ibon wrote:Being a benevolent patron is working for us. $ 12 a day is the average salary for ranch hands here who chop our wood, clear our trails, harvest our coffee, clean out ditches, repair river crossings after heavy rains.

We treat them with respect and humble ourselves in gratefulness for the calories they burn every day in their hard labor to keep our operation going.

As a capitalist, that sounds great to me. Sounds like both the employer and the employee are happy.

At the risk of asking a very stupid question, can I assume this just ignores the authorities and rules and regulations? (which is fine with me, but not most people, from what I read)

Because otherwise, I'd think the powers-that-be would frown on that due to minimum wage laws -- even if the folks working for you would GLADLY sign something saying they're perfectly happy with the arrangement.

I'll admit both that this is none of my business, and that I'm just curious. (To anyone providing jobs which aren't coerced, you have my respect, whether the politically correct folks like it or not).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Cog » Sun 17 Dec 2017, 16:19:33

Ibon is not bound by US labor laws in Panama. While not a princely sum, his pay rate is pretty much in line with a laborer on a ranch down there.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 17 Dec 2017, 17:01:38

Ibon,
You are speaking from your perspective. What about th perspective of the laborour? What is it like for him to get old?
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Sun 17 Dec 2017, 17:17:39

Ibon wrote:This is not a topic of political divisiveness. Under both Obama and Trump deportations have grown. Obama deported while talking sweet. Trump deports while demonizing immigrants. In either case, this has been bad for American farmers.


I am not a fan of large scale illegal immigration and I abhor the politically correct terminology of "undocumented immigrant". However, I recognize that the farm sector in both the USA and Canada needs foreign workers as there are not enough of our own citizens willing to do that work. The way to do that is to issue temporary work visas to foreign farm workers who have been recruited to come and work during the farm season. The farmer would be responsible for arranging the transportation at the beginning and end of the season and providing acceptable room and board while the workers are at their farm. If a farmer mistreated their temporary farm workers they would be at risk of being denied visas in the following year.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 17 Dec 2017, 20:13:16

Newfie wrote:Ibon,
You are speaking from your perspective. What about th perspective of the laborour? What is it like for him to get old?


There is a symbiosis where both sides benefit. Being a foreigner who has developed a reputation locally as being fair and generous there are a lot of local laborers who would love to be employed by us. Some of the local land owners have heard about some of our work practices and they resent how we treat our workers since this makes them look bad. There is ugly racism here towards the indigenous who we mostly employ. We pay above the minimum wage
We pay the rent for a small room in town so that the children of the family who works for us can go to the local school without commuting 20km per day. The year end bonus last year of my main administrator we applied to the purchase of a calf that is now close to 1000 pounds a year later. We will sell this for around $ 950 and I am splitting the profit with this employee. I am also giving him a loan to by a small parcel of land. We also let our empoyees farm and plant beans on part of our land for their own consumption. I gave a horse to one worker for his family back on their reservations. Hundreds of little examples like this and treating our staff with respect and dignity is what builds trust and loyalty. I am the patron, benevolent and generous. One of my caretakers son I am helping to become a certified guide. He is learning english and taking guests on guided walks and has learned the names of birds in englis.

Newfie, our workers are very very happy working for us. I could go on and on with examples of how you treat people with respect and treat them fairly. (why do you think I believe Donald Trump is scum by the way)

Average daily wage for a beginning laborer around the world in developing countries falls between $ 8 - $ 15 dollars a day. Panama falls a bit lower than Costa Rica but quite a bit higher than Guatemala, Nicaragua and Honduras.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 17 Dec 2017, 20:23:44

To Newfie's question about what happens to laborers here when they get old I can answer this pretty accurately. They return to their home villages, they get basic health care provided by the state. They are held by extended families and their children.. The minute they get any complicated medical condition they usually surrender to the consequences and often perish. There is no resentment, no anger that the state has not provided for them. In fact, most elderly sick people would not dream of having their children go into debt to treat them. There is a humility here that Americans have lost, both on the political right and left. Entitlement American style knows no political party, they are both spoiled beyond any metric that is relevant to what we as a species has to face as we go into overshoot moving forward.

My wife's mother in the Philippines suffered a stroke, thee doctor sent her home, she lived for 7 days and perished. I have friends here in Panama whose folks died also of a stroke in the same fashion. My mother in the US suffered a major stroke a couple of years ago. She was rushed to the hospital, my mother was 93. A surgeon performed a procedure entering her artery in her leg with an endoscopic device and reached into her brain in order to remove a clot. She partially recovered but fell into a deep depression and suffered complications and a painful passing several months later. The doctor told us at the time of her stroke that at her age a stroke like this almost always represents the beginning of a steep decline.

Think about the difference of how folks in a developing country deal with this compared to the US. My mother suffered several months of severe post stroke depression and medical complications. Hundreds of thousands of dollars paid out by medicare and her health insurance.

Wouldn't it have been much better had the hospital just sent my mother home after her stroke and let her die within the next week as I have witnessed here in Panama, Philippines and several other places where the local culture does not suffer from the disease of entitlement.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 00:13:45

Ibon. That's what I was describing, how CRAZY our medical system/health care delivery is. As you say, there is an intersection of entitlement and just being spoiled. It's like the Matrix. We've created a Matrix and it is completely illogical and now completely financed by debt that has been misinterpreted as wealth. Woe is our children who inherit this mess.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 00:15:45

I think the discussions here are zeroing in on the dysfunctions of this hyper monetary society which is the US including the helplessness of people teetered to this monetary system. Directing myself towards the original post, what may compel people to finally end their lives is this sense of helplessness. Whether it be farmers, or rural folk or city dwellers, all feel it if they do not and cannot attain a reasonable income.

Taking a Macro view, we as a species have drifted so far now from tenable conditions to sustain all of us, that it is quite excruciating to witness, helplessness on a grand scale. Whether it be beggars in third world cities, or government handout beneficiaries in rich world countries. Living off the land, living via the skills to survive in the wilderness is a rare capability now among us. What is even more tragic is that even if many of us could gain these skills, some wilderness areas are bereft of the original bounty now to sustain any substantial number of people. And of course they're are alot less wildness areas at present than ever before. In serves no purpose to dissect if one group is taking advantage of another. People around the world are limited in what they can do to sustain themselves. I applaud you Ibon, but not everyone can do what you have done. They either do not have the money or the knowhow. One can only hope we all meet our end quickly and relatively painlessly as the situation deteoriates around this planet.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 00:41:36

onlooker wrote:One can only hope we all meet our end quickly and relatively painlessly as the situation deteoriates around this planet.


On the contrary.

We can hope that some regions and countries deteriorate faster then others, and that we have to good fortune to be in one of the regions/countries that continue to provide a comfortable life for just a bit longer then the rest.

Cheers!
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 16:29:12

Plantagenet wrote:We can hope that some regions and countries deteriorate faster then others,.

Cheers!


Hoping for deterioration. The Overshoot Predator has found a disciple. :)
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 17:52:00

I hope for degrowth, does that count?
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 18 Dec 2017, 17:57:06

So why doesn't hoping that we all die fairly quick and painless deaths not count? haha
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby evilgenius » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 14:59:21

I'm talking about how debilitating it can be to get old. I see it every day. People need help to do the simplest things. A lot of the time that help comes from an immigrant. It doesn't have to. It's just the reality that immigrants wind up in those jobs. It's funny because those industries charge a lot per month. They could certainly afford to pay enough so that you would see fewer immigrants. But the immigrants are more than capable. They're just as good at what they do as people born in the country would be. There is no premium available, therefore, for being a native. That is probably because of the true business nature of those places.

Worse than how much help people need is how boring those places are where people retire. There is very little in them that brings meaning into those people's lives. Unless the people smoke they probably don't even have a relationship with what goes on outdoors. They don't pay their employees to interact with the residents as much as they pay them to do the dirty work. The people pretty much pay all that money to be warehoused. They aren't getting much of an elder experience out of it. There are good places that are better to be in, I see both, but you would have a harder time finding those in a rural setting.

Sorry if my other post sounded alarmist or accusatory. I just wanted to point something out that some commenters seemed to be overlooking.
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Re: Rural America fades

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 17:41:11

evilgenius wrote:I'm talking about how debilitating it can be to get old. I see it every day. People need help to do the simplest things.


I think we have to differentiate between active retirement and old age and the end game when your boundaries shrink down to a few hundred square feet. At the end you focus on care providers hopefully your children and it doesn't matter where you are.

I think it is a terrible mistake to sacrifice your active old age anticipating this end game when you are incapacitated.

It really depends on how you lived your life how you approach your final chapters. When you were in your 20's, did you forsake your career and take to the road and explore the world? If you did that then most likely you will not want to compromise much for the end game. If on the other hand you were the type that planned for retirement already when you were young and gave security priority over experiential living then most likely you will already be choosing where to live based on where you plan on dying.

I belong to the former group. I have no interest sacrificing being in this beautiful remote rural area just because some day I know I will have to re locate during those final years when I am incapacitated to be in such a remote location.
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