Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 15 May 2020, 18:44:54

Not just Tesla but all of the working class that have been sent home and kept there long after the money ran short or out will take a long look at the politicians that kept them from going to work.
Perhaps some Blue states will turn Red.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 31 Jan 2021, 20:32:04

On paper it looks like Tesla made a healthy product selling EVs in 2020......but when you dive into the numbers it turns out that Tesla makes most of its money selling tax credits to other companies that don't sell EVs

tesla-dirty-little-secret-profitability-not-from-EVs

I'm a little bit surprised by this..... I thought Tesla had finally turned the corner and become a "real" car company with real sales and real profits.

The problem with Tesla relying on selling tax credits to earn money is that (1) other car companies are bringing out their own EVs, so won't need to buy tax credits and (2) the tax credit racket is based on government laws that force car companies to buy tax credits.....and those laws can be changed at any time.

Hopefully TESLA will continue to mature and will continue to sell more cars and will eventually make the bulk of its money from selling EV cars.

But they aren't there yet.

Image
Why Elon Musk likes EV tax credits....

Cheers!
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26607
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 02 Feb 2021, 18:03:05

I see that one of the annalist set a price target for Tesla at $1200/share based on the projection that the Giga factories in Germany and Texas would come on line as expected.
It is up $32.98 today to $872.79 and my tiny sliver bought at $609 is up 43.8%. :-D
Here is a link if you care for the details.
https://www.streetinsider.com/Analyst+C ... 91113.html
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 08 Feb 2021, 19:19:27

Oh-oh. Story just out that multiple Chinese regulators have gone to TESLA's China factory and urged the US company to come into compliance with Chinese laws and regulations.

tesla-urged-operate-according-china-law-four-separate-ccp-agencies

Anyone who's been following China knows that the CCP in China demands that foreign companies who want to operate in China must take on Chinese partners. Then, sometimes, the foreign technology is rapidly duplicated by a Chinese competitor, and the foreign company is forced out of China and replaced by the local Chinese company, who has somehow incorporated the modern technology.

For instance, European high speed train companies started out selling high speed train equipment to China, but then the Chinese somehow duplicated the technology and now all Chinese high speed rail manufacturing is done in China exclusively by Chinese companies.

I was concerned when Tesla built their factory in China that this might happen to Tesla. And sure enough.....a purely Chinese EV manufacturer called NIO has sprung up to compete with Tesla.

I'm keeping an eye on this new development. I wouldn't be surprised to see China put more and more obstacles in Tesla's way to enable Chinese EV maker NIO to outcompete Tesla and shut them out of China.

Image
Now its TESLA vs. NIO to win the Chinese EV market......and I predict the CCP is going to help NIO win

Cheers!
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26607
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 16 Feb 2021, 05:08:54

Plantagenet wrote:Oh-oh. Story just out that multiple Chinese regulators have gone to TESLA's China factory and urged the US company to come into compliance with Chinese laws and regulations.

tesla-urged-operate-according-china-law-four-separate-ccp-agencies

Anyone who's been following China knows that the CCP in China demands that foreign companies who want to operate in China must take on Chinese partners. Then, sometimes, the foreign technology is rapidly duplicated by a Chinese competitor, and the foreign company is forced out of China and replaced by the local Chinese company, who has somehow incorporated the modern technology.

For instance, European high speed train companies started out selling high speed train equipment to China, but then the Chinese somehow duplicated the technology and now all Chinese high speed rail manufacturing is done in China exclusively by Chinese companies.

I was concerned when Tesla built their factory in China that this might happen to Tesla. And sure enough.....a purely Chinese EV manufacturer called NIO has sprung up to compete with Tesla.

I'm keeping an eye on this new development. I wouldn't be surprised to see China put more and more obstacles in Tesla's way to enable Chinese EV maker NIO to outcompete Tesla and shut them out of China.

Image
Now its TESLA vs. NIO to win the Chinese EV market......and I predict the CCP is going to help NIO win

Cheers!

When Tesla can't sell any cars in China, be SURE and get back to us. :roll:

When Tesla can't build any cars or batteries in China, be SURE and get back to us. :idea:

Meanwhile, in the real world, I'm glad to see the authorities SIT on Musk when he violates the laws and standards. The US authorities should be doing a much better job on that front, given his far less than sterliing track record in that area.

I predict Musk will do what needs to be done to comply in China, as China is important to at least the short to intermediate success of Tesla. Oh, and China has plenty of leverage to force compliance over time considering that the Tesla plant in Shanghai is leased vs. owned by Tesla. Clearly, Tesla having their lease terminated is NOT in Tesla's best interests.

No wild rumor mongering, conspiracy theories, trolling, or arm waving necessary, BTW.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42
Location: Central KY

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby dolanbaker » Tue 16 Feb 2021, 08:48:19

Ironic that the Chinese are now very safety conscious, some of their earliest cars were real death traps!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbe5ILICT4M
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.:Anonymous
Our whole economy is based on planned obsolescence.
Hungrymoggy "I am now predicting that Europe will NUKE ITSELF sometime in the first week of January"
User avatar
dolanbaker
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3855
Joined: Wed 14 Apr 2010, 10:38:47
Location: Éire

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 16 Feb 2021, 16:40:43

Outcast_Searcher wrote:I predict Musk will do what needs to be done to comply in China, as China is important to .... the .... success of Tesla.


Of course.

But is Tesla important to the success of China? Or would the Chinese rather see Tesla be replaced in China by a Chinese EV maker?

China has a bad record when it comes to stealing technology from western businesses and then using it to foster Chinese companies that wind up competing against the US companies. I don't think Tesla is immune to this kind of Chinese activity.

And even though you are blind to the risk that China may use their governmental power to tilt the playing field against Tesla in China, people in the business community see this risk quite clearly. For instance, consider this article in CNN:

Elon Musk's love-in with China may be over as regulators go after Tesla

Cheers!
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26607
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 16 Feb 2021, 21:47:51

Plantagenet wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:I predict Musk will do what needs to be done to comply in China, as China is important to .... the .... success of Tesla.


Of course.

But is Tesla important to the success of China? Or would the Chinese rather see Tesla be replaced in China by a Chinese EV maker?

China has a bad record when it comes to stealing technology from western businesses and then using it to foster Chinese companies that wind up competing against the US companies. I don't think Tesla is immune to this kind of Chinese activity.

And even though you are blind to the risk that China may use their governmental power to tilt the playing field against Tesla in China, people in the business community see this risk quite clearly. For instance, consider this article in CNN:

Elon Musk's love-in with China may be over as regulators go after Tesla

Cheers!

Like I said, when Tesla can't sell any cars in China, be SURE and get back to us.

Not that I'd expect you to stop twisting facts and evading issues to try and make your political points, like that EV's cause cancer. :roll:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42
Location: Central KY

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 16 Feb 2021, 22:11:53

Outcast_Searcher wrote:when Tesla can't sell any cars in China, be SURE and get back to us.


Your suggestion that Tesla won't be able to sell any cars in China is silly.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Not that I'd expect you to stop twisting facts and evading issues to try and make your political points


You're the one making the bizarre suggestion that Tesla won't be able to sell any cars in China. No one ever said that but you, so clearly it is you who are twisting facts and evading issues in order to make your half-baked political points.

--------------------------------------------------------

China doesn't have to stop Tesla from selling any cars in order to hurt Tesla....all China has to do is aggressively enforce Chinese government regulations on Tesla enough to slow Tesla production and reduce Tesla sales so Chinese EV manufacturer NIO comes to dominate the internal Chinese market instead of Tesla.

If this idea is too complicated for you to understand, then I suggest you go to my post above and click on my link to the CNN-BUSINESS article on the Chinese threat to Tesla in China where this idea explained at greater length.

Image
Nio EV sales are growing fast and are now beating the pants off Tesla EV sales in China.....and this trend will accelerate if the Chinese government takes actions that help NIO.

Cheers!
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26607
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 08 Sep 2021, 16:45:43

EDMUNDS reviews the Tesla Model S Plaid EV and says it is a "waste of money."

waste-money-edmunds-calls-teslas-140k-model-s-plaid-joke

Tesla has competition now from EVs made by BMW, Porsche and other high-end car manufacturers, and according to EDMUNDs the Tesla cars don't measure up to the competition.

Tesla has the "first-mover advantage" on EVs, but if they keep putting out such a poor product, they risk being pushed aside by more established car manufacturers and their EVs.

Image
EDMUNDS says Tesla Model S Plaid is a "waste of money" and EV buyers should look elsewhere. Thats bad news for Tesla.

Cheers!
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26607
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 15 Mar 2022, 14:16:06

Who is to blame when a Tesla on autopilot smashes into another car and kills people?

Is the driver of the car on autopilot to blame?

Is Tesla to blame?

Tesla's autopilot was controlling and driving the car when the crash occurred......so maybe the driver should be considered to be just a passenger?

Who gets the traffic ticket for the vehicular homicide? Tesla or the driver?

Who gets sued by the family of victims? Tesla or the driver?

A case like this is now in court and soon the court will decide......

Is Tesla to blame when a car on autopilot causes a crash and kills someone?

Or is the driver to blame even though he wasn't in control of the car?

a-tesla-on-autopilot-killed-two-people-in-gardena-is-the-driver-guilty-of-manslaughter]

Image
Is Tesla to blame when a car on autopilot causes a crash and kills someone? Or is the driver to blame even though he wasn't in control of the car?

Cheers!
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26607
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 15 Mar 2022, 21:10:08

Say it ain't so, Elon

News Reports say some Tesla models are made out of aluminum from............wait for it............R U S S I A !!!!!!!

tesla-bought-russian-aluminum-make-body-shells-

Tesla getting caught buying aluminum from Russia sounds kind of crazy now that the whole world is boycotting Russia because of their barbaric invasions of Ukraine.

Image
Shame on Tesla for using Russian metals in their cars! Putin is a murderous autocrat and you shouldn't be propping him up by buying stuff from Russia

Hopefully, Tesla will admit it did wrong by buying metal from Russia and now will promise to stop using metals from Russia in the future.

And for those people who already bought a Tesla made of Russian aluminum.......I hope you are ashamed of yourself for supporting Putin with your money.

Cheers!
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26607
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 15 Mar 2022, 21:57:16

Back in the day Alcoa used to ship aluminum ore (Bauxite) from Brazil to Canada to have it smelted using cheap Canadian hydro power. Today Australia has twice the reserves of Brazil and twelve times what Russia has so if Tesla's Russian supply gets cut off I doubt they will have much trouble finding a better source.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 15 Mar 2022, 22:18:59

vtsnowedin wrote:Back in the day Alcoa used to ship aluminum ore (Bauxite) from Brazil to Canada to have it smelted using cheap Canadian hydro power. Today Australia has twice the reserves of Brazil and twelve times what Russia has so if Tesla's Russian supply gets cut off I doubt they will have much trouble finding a better source.


Back in WW II the USA exploited its own moderate quality Bauxite deposits in Alabama and Louisiana and to a limited extent in Florida to avoid the problem of U-Boot sinking bulk freighters coming from Jamaica with high grade ore. By mid 1945 they were switching back to foreign Bauxite because labor and mineral rights were so much cheaper from poor countries instead of poor states where the United Mine Workers demanded safe conditions and decent pay. All that moderate grade ore that wasn't used after 1945 is still sitting there in the ground waiting to be exploited when the price is right.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17048
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 16 Mar 2022, 17:25:38

Plantagenet wrote:Who is to blame when a Tesla on autopilot smashes into another car and kills people?

Is the driver of the car on autopilot to blame?

Is Tesla to blame?

Tesla's autopilot was controlling and driving the car when the crash occurred......so maybe the driver should be considered to be just a passenger?

Who gets the traffic ticket for the vehicular homicide? Tesla or the driver?

Who gets sued by the family of victims? Tesla or the driver?

A case like this is now in court and soon the court will decide......

Is Tesla to blame when a car on autopilot causes a crash and kills someone?

Or is the driver to blame even though he wasn't in control of the car?

a-tesla-on-autopilot-killed-two-people-in-gardena-is-the-driver-guilty-of-manslaughter]

Image
Is Tesla to blame when a car on autopilot causes a crash and kills someone? Or is the driver to blame even though he wasn't in control of the car?

Cheers!

ALL OF THIS clearly needs to be worked out for ALL automated cars, and should be done in advance of them being widely used.

Tesla isn't even the leader in automated vehicles (despite its claims), since it's vehicles aren't actually automated (merely level 2 driver assist features).

But MANY companies are working seriously on this and a variety of companies will have real world revenue earning robo-taxis earning fares in various cities by mid decade. Waymo and Cruise already. Mobileye in 2022, per plans and the press. And various others. And not just in the US. XPeng, a Chinese EV outfit in China has big plans and has done lots of work and has Youtube videos showing their automated driving system working (XPilot) in China, for example.

I keep seeing scattered signs of "progress re dealing with this, but nothing that I see seems organized, much less comprehensive.

For example, the NHTSA supposedly has "rules" now for automated vehicles, including that they can be deployed "safely" even without human controls. But do such rules clearly address the points you made (and others)?

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 022-03-11/

I don't feel like digging around and trying to go through all the lawyerese on this (and I often find lawyerese incomprehensible, being a layman).

But it does seem like a lot of chaos, given the magnitude of the issue, and the MANY outfits that are making progress and testing and deploying (and soon to deploy) automated vehicles in increasing numbers. Plus Tesla with something sort of in-between, with little oversight or regulation, and too often misused by drivers in various scenarios, some of which hit the news, like high speed crashes into emergency vehicles, etc.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42
Location: Central KY

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 16 Mar 2022, 17:32:20

Plantagenet wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:when Tesla can't sell any cars in China, be SURE and get back to us.


Your suggestion that Tesla won't be able to sell any cars in China is silly.

Since you seem to be unable to stop trolling long enough to understand simple English in context, I was sarcastically saying that your false claims that Tesla is facing ruin in China is vastly overwrought. They are and will be producing LOTS of cars, profitably, in China over time. Even if things aren't perfect (and when are they ever, with manufacturing, over time?)

Apparently having an adult conversation and dealing with facts is too difficult for some of us, so there's that.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42
Location: Central KY

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 16 Mar 2022, 17:38:38

Tanada wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Back in the day Alcoa used to ship aluminum ore (Bauxite) from Brazil to Canada to have it smelted using cheap Canadian hydro power. Today Australia has twice the reserves of Brazil and twelve times what Russia has so if Tesla's Russian supply gets cut off I doubt they will have much trouble finding a better source.


It's certainly reassuring to know there are plenty of alternatives. For aluminum, I presumed there must be, given how common the stuff is, and how cheap it is.

Tesla already faces PLENTY of price pressures for its inputs, so in the face of that, paying a little more for aluminum is likely no big deal, as long as they can get it in a timely manner and in the needed quantities.

Since there are waiting lists for all their car models even as they expand production (at least thus far), presumably they can always raise prices if needed to deal with higher costs, as they have been doing a lot for over a year now.

(I have problems with Musk and his mouth and some Tesla quality and service issues, but I call them like I see them -- and Tesla has been doing a great job of putting out LOTS of BEV's people want, and very rapidly growing production, for years now. At that, it is putting virtually every maker but perhaps XPeng to shame in recent years, re scale and meaningful persistent production growth.
Plus effectively planning to keep that growth going through at least mid-decade. (WAY too many unknowns to even speculate beyond mid-decade on something as dynamic as BEV production, IMO).)
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42
Location: Central KY

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 16 Mar 2022, 19:22:57

On the self driving cars, it is an evolving technology and as yet far from perfect.
I expect there will be a lot of lawsuits while they are working the bugs out of the systems.
But I also expect they will work out those issues and we will have reliable self driving cars in perhaps as little as five years. If your an early adapter you should always be able to override what your AI vehicle wants to do to keep you from arguing with a Mack truck which is always a losing bet.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 16 Mar 2022, 22:43:07

The WaPo came out today and called for Americans to boycott US companies that are still doing business with Russia......companies like Tesla.

Elon Musk in the past has discussed building a Tesla plant in Russia. Hopefully he'll drop that idea.

Tesla also sells cars in Russia----they should stop that immediately.

And some Teslas are made of aluminum that Tesla buys from Russia. IMHO Tesla should announce they won't buy any more aluminum from Russia.

Many US companies have announced they are ending or suspending all business with Russia.

I think the ethical thing for Tesla to do now is to follow the example of many other large US corporations and stop all business dealings with Russian and/or Russian companies.

Image
A Tesla with a "Z" painted on it is not a good look for Tesla right now

Cheers!
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26607
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 16 Mar 2022, 23:07:04

Outcast_Searcher wrote: ... Tesla is facing ruin in China .... vastly overwrought


You're the one who is overwrought.

First of all your claim that "Tesla is facing ruin in China" is nonsense.

NOW....Don't try to wriggle out of what you post.....face facts here. You are the one who posted that bit of nonsense.....you are the one who thought up that idiotic phrase and you the one who decided to post it in your very own post and then your stubby little fingers typed those words and YOU POSTED IT.

Here's my opinion on your nonsense......rather then immediate ruin what is most likely going to happen is that Tesla will face more competition from Chinese EV makers in the future, and the Chinese government will, in most cases, tend to push regulations and laws in such a way as to hurt Tesla and help their own Chinese EV makers. We'll have to see how this plays out, but the Chinese have a long history of not playing fair with foreign competitors.

Its the way China does business.....they've done it over and over again with other large western corporations that have tried to get established in China.

For instance, the latest attack on Tesla from the Chinese government occurred just a few months ago. It was an order to recall tens of thousands of Teslas.....and Tesla felt the order was totally unfair to them because it didn't apply equally to the Chinese EV makers.

china-forces-recall-of-30-000-tesla-models-s-and-x-

Image
Chinese EV makers are growing rapidly.....in fact in aggregate they already sell a similar number of EVs as Tesla. I predict the Chinese government will continue to take steps to help their own Chinese EV makers succeed and while also enforcing their regulations in the Chinese market in a way that makes EV makers of other countries do less well.

Cheers!
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26607
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

PreviousNext

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests