[vtsnowedin]

That means even the best managed states won't be completely re-opened for 6-8 weeks, while poorly managed states like New York where even now there are still hundreds of covid-related deaths every day are going to take much longer.

Cheers!

I'll challenge that New York has been poorly managed. The state and city have population densities among the highest in the nation along with extensive mass transit systems and a host of demographic problems that preexisted the onset of Covi-19.
No management decision could or can change any of that. Their time frame will be measured in years not weeks.

[Plantagenet]

I'll challenge that New York has been poorly managed.

New York has by far the highest death toll in the entire country. Do you think that is evidence of good management of this virus crisis? There is only one way to slow the infections and the death toll.....enforce social separation. And the governor and the mayor haven't done that in New York. Its been disgraceful, IMHO.

The state and city have population densities among the highest in the nation along with extensive mass transit systems and a host of demographic problems that preexisted the onset of Covi-19. No management decision could or can change any of that.

IMHO, you are wrong. If New York had been "locked down" early on, i.e. people had been confined to their apartments, then the outbreak wouldn't have spread to so many people and there wouldn't be so many dead. But Cuomo and DeBlasio failed to order the lockdown quick enough. DeBlasio himself was caught out enjoying himself in a city park with other folks----and that is a TERRIBLE example to set when the need is for social separation. Even now things aren't locked down...and that is why so many people are dying. I keep seeing news articles about all the people out on the street in New York ..... and then Cuomo goes on TV and whines about how many people are dying. Instead of whining, Cuomo should be ORDERING PEOPLE TO STAY IN THEIR APARTMENTS AND CONDOS and sending in the police to enforce it.

Cheers!

[vtsnowedin]

That is all easy to say from Alaska. In a 500 square foot apartment in Brooklyn that depends on city utilities and the corner market you would have a different view.

[Shaved Monkey]

I'll challenge that New York has been poorly managed.

New York has by far the highest death toll in the entire country. Do you think that is evidence of good management of this virus crisis? There is only one way to slow the infections and the death toll.....enforce social separation. And the governor and the mayor haven't done that in New York. Its been disgraceful, IMHO.

The state and city have population densities among the highest in the nation along with extensive mass transit systems and a host of demographic problems that preexisted the onset of Covi-19. No management decision could or can change any of that.

IMHO, you are wrong. If New York had been "locked down" early on, i.e. people had been confined to their apartments, then the outbreak wouldn't have spread to so many people and there wouldn't be so many dead. But Cuomo and DeBlasio failed to order the lockdown quick enough. DeBlasio himself was caught out enjoying himself in a city park with other folks----and that is a TERRIBLE example to set when the need is for social separation. Even now things aren't locked down...and that is why so many people are dying. I keep seeing news articles about all the people out on the street in New York ..... and then Cuomo goes on TV and whines about how many people are dying. Instead of whining, Cuomo should be ORDERING PEOPLE TO STAY IN THEIR APARTMENTS AND CONDOS and sending in the police to enforce it.

Cheers!

So they shouldnt have listened to Trump early on either ?

[dohboi]

Steven Calabresi, a Northwestern University law professor [and co-founder of the conservative Federalist Society 'one of the most influential groups in Republican politics' ] who has offered broad defenses of the President in recent years, wrote,

"I am frankly appalled by the president's recent tweet seeking to postpone the November election. Until recently, I had taken as political hyperbole the Democrats' assertion that President Trump is a fascist."

"But this latest tweet is fascistic and is itself grounds for the president's immediate impeachment again by the House of Representatives and his removal from office by the Senate," he said.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/30/politics ... index.html

Discuss...

[Ibon]

Let the Lincoln group and Republicans who are seeing the light do the necessary work in discrediting this petty tyrant. Anyone else pointing out Trumps tyranny is simply labeled partisan. A waste of time.

I had a neighbor who had a horrible marriage. After her divorce she spent the next 2 years still ragging on her ex husband. In other words she still was orbiting around him even two years after her divorce, still in relationship. Her identity was tied up with him even two years after their divorce. It was her crutch, her way of actually avoiding moving on with her life. Finally one day she woke up and realized she had a life independent of her ex husband. THe divorce was not the final step in gaining her true independence.

I fear that even after Trump is defeated there will be this couple of years after the divorce before folks will really move on from this chapter.

Just like Covid19 has silver linings so has the Trump presidency.

It exposed all those Republican spineless cock suckers who have now lost all credibility and if the electorate as a brain they will be disposed of at the election booth.

It also exposed the vulnerability of the Republicans hitching their wagon with white racists.

[asg70]

I fear that even after Trump is defeated there will be this couple of years after the divorce before folks will really move on from this chapter.

That's funny. The first thing I think if when you describe this phenomenon is how Trump still goes after Obama (which in turn mirrors Plant's rhetoric, explaining why Plant is so sympathetic towards Trump).

It exposed all those Republican spineless cock suckers

You make it sound as thought Trump has been abandoned already. He hasn't. In fact all it would take to reign him in would be the Republicans joining with the Democrats to start new impeachment proceedings for the newest round of offenses (such as Bounty-gate or starting a roving secret-police). Since that's not happening, the Republicans are still complicit in Trump's conversion of the US into a dictatorship, something that could very well be complete if the election is postponed or invalidated.

And even then, the bottom line is it will not stop until MAGA hat wearers realize that the ends don't always justify the means.

[dohboi]

Ibon, that's why I didn't post that I said he is a fascist, but that even the co-founder of one of the leading conservative groups in the country has come to that conclusion, too.

But asg is right that he still garners support from some 80% (last I looked) of Republicans. So the destruction of the country really is on them.

And they do seem to follow in lock, errr, goose step with every unfounded idiotic lie that comes out of his mouth, just like good Germans:

https://news.yahoo.com/new-yahoo-news-y ... 28759.html

Most Trump voters say they will not accept the 2020 results if Biden wins because of mail-in ballots

[Ibon]

But asg is right that he still garners support from some 80% (last I looked) of Republicans. So the destruction of the country really is on them.

And they do seem to follow in lock, errr, goose step with every unfounded idiotic lie that comes out of his mouth, just like good Germans:

The Germans learned and corrected. Will we?

[jedrider]

Steven Calabresi, a Northwestern University law professor [and co-founder of the conservative Federalist Society 'one of the most influential groups in Republican politics' ] who has offered broad defenses of the President in recent years, wrote,

"I am frankly appalled by the president's recent tweet seeking to postpone the November election. Until recently, I had taken as political hyperbole the Democrats' assertion that President Trump is a fascist."

"But this latest tweet is fascistic and is itself grounds for the president's immediate impeachment again by the House of Representatives and his removal from office by the Senate," he said.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/30/politics ... index.html

Discuss...

Yes, wake up World. I've been telling you Trump is abnormal from the beginning. I didn't understand Fascism until this episode and now I understand it. It has two sets of enablers: The fanatics and those who accept immediate gain by going along with it.

It exposed all those Republican spineless cock suckers who have now lost all credibility and if the electorate as a brain they will be disposed of at the election booth.

Always being a cheerleader has it's pitfalls. You get to be called a 'spineless cock sucker'. Well done.

[Plantagenet]

spineless cock suckers....

spineless cock sucker'.....

I think we have a match.

Cheers!

[Plantagenet]

Personally, I think its hyperbolic to call trump a fascist. People seem to have forgotten what real fascism consists of. A real fascist does much worse things then just sending out a stupid tweet.

Personally, I can’t wait until the election in November when at last the evil Trump will be voted OUT and the good democrat Biden will be voted IN. Given the current polling, Trump doesn’t have a chance against Joe. And as long as Joe stays in his basement and continues to avoid situations where he would have to answer questions he should easily sweep to victory in the fall. My advice to Joe is somehow duck the debates. Joe is far enough ahead in the polls I don’t think it would hurt him a bit.

Personally I expect everything to be much much better when Joe becomes president.......at least until Joe starts showing More and more signs of increasing senility. Then heaven knows what will happen. We’ve never actually had to remove a president before for being senile.

In any case it will be very interesting to see how the Biden administration Deals with all the crises left over from the Trump administration.

Cheers!

[dohboi]

Perhaps, but even if we succeed in voting the person out, and the person actually does leave the WH without fomenting some kind of civil war, we will still be left with Trumpism to deal with, and all the pathologies that lead up to it and feed it, and with what has been termed 'pathocracy.'

Here's a piece that seems to be rather thoughtful and worthy of discussion, even if I'm not sure I can agree with all of it:

I see Trumpism as an inevitable and necessary confrontation with our shadow. This confrontation is meant to break apart our (deadly) illusions, most of all that about our non-ending progress, exceptional greatness, and immunity to pain and suffering that envelop such large swaths of the world.

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/08/how-do ... y-america/

[asg70]

The Germans learned and corrected. Will we?

The best cautionary tale is the original V miniseries (not the right-wing remake that demonized Obamacare). In that one, the visitors targeted the intelligentsia rather than Jews. That's what the right has been doing even before Trump--the war on expertise. Now we're in a post-truth era.

Once the public has lost the ability to distinguish truth from propaganda it's all over.

[Plantagenet]

... even if we succeed in voting the person out, and the person actually does leave the WH without fomenting some kind of civil war, we will still be left with Trumpism to deal with, and all the pathologies that lead up to it and feed it, and with what has been termed 'pathocracy.'/

Thats not the way elections work.

When the Ds sweep the White House, Senate and Congressional elections, they will be in total control of the government.

Trump and the Rs will be out of power and Trumpism.....what you imagine that is.........will be politically dead.

Once we get to 2021 the only thing we'll have to worry about will be what Joe and the Ds decide to do with all their political power. Hopefully the Ds will use their power wisely.....but given the way US politics has been going recently I suspect we are just swapping the extremes for Trumpism for a whole new set of extremes coming from the leftwing of the Ds.......it looks like we're heading for government by TWITTER, since the D policies seem designed to cater to the "woke" twitter mob. And the latest word is that bidenwill chooses Bass as his VP in spite of her personal record of support for Communism. Hopefully she's not still supportive of communism, given communism's horrible record of property theft and state sponsored terror, repression and mass murder, but it raises concerns for sure.

Time will tell.

Cheers!

[dohboi]

Wow, you really have an overblown view of the power of elections.

Do you really think elections completely alter everyone's unconscious assumptions and bigotries, and that those will not play a roll in both how policies are (or aren't) implemented and on future elections (not to mention lived everyday experiences of Americans)?

I would honestly like to hear your views on how the Dems, if/when they take power, should address the grievances of the former (and continuing?) Trump supporters in order to work toward uniting the country...if not all the country, at least a larger majority of it

[Plantagenet]

Wow, you really have an overblown view of the power of elections.

Not really. Everything I posted was 100% true. The elections absolutely will determine who is in power in DC.....just as they are supposed to do. I don't see why you are kvetching about that idea? Its pretty obviously true, I think.

Do you really think elections completely alter everyone's unconscious assumptions and bigotries, and that those will not play a roll in both how policies are (or aren't) implemented and on future elections (not to mention lived everyday experiences of Americans)?

Thats your strange idea....I've never said anything like that.

Back here in the real world the elections are a reflection of how people feel and view the world at the time of the elections. The repudiation of Trump and the Rs that is coming in the 2020 election is a repudiation of Trump and the Rs.....and the repudiation is coming not because of delusional claims that Trump and the Rs are evil fascists but because of real-world concerns over Trump's own character and his failure to successfully address the virus issue.

I would honestly like to hear your views on how the Dems, if/when they take power, should address the grievances of the former (and continuing?) Trump supporters in order to work toward uniting the country...if not all the country, at least a larger majority of it

I don't think the Ds can address the grievances of Trump supporters without alienating their own supporters.

For instance, Ds want tax cuts for the wealthy home buyers in blue states and Rs oppose that. When Biden lifts the cap on property tax deductions to benefit his wealthy backers in blue states they will "win." Similarly, Ds want tax increases on working people. The Ds are going to repeal Trump's doubling of the personal IRS exemption...that will cost blue collar and middle class working people thousands of dollars of extra taxes each year. Again, a win for the Ds but a real financial "loss" for working people and the Rs.

Biden has pledged to earmark billions and billions of dollars of additional federal money just for use in black areas. This inevitably means less federal money will be available for other areas. Again, a win for some Ds is a loss for some Rs. Its how politics works in the US.

-------------------------

Its not unreasonable or irrational that different people view political and economic issues in different ways. I think the most we can hope for from the Ds when they take power is that they stop trying to demonize people who disagree with their political viewss.....and given the nature of our politics demonizing the other side is the way things are mostly done these days by both sides so will probably continue to make those kinds of claims, with the Ds claims being louder since they have the majority of the MSM on their side.

Personally, I don't support either the D or the Rs and I'm certainly not going to subordinate my own views and judgement to toe some party line, either for the Ds or the Rs. I'm having too much fun thinking through things on my own.

An important concern for is that My main issue (climate change) isn't being adequately addressed by either party, and that furthers my disregard for both political parties. Obama was a failure on the climate change issue and Trump has been an even worse failure on the climate change and Biden, based on his positions, is also going to be a failure on the climate change issue. There really isn't much difference between Ds and Rs on climate change, IMHO, except Ds say nice things and do nothing and Rs say bad things and do nothing.

The bottom line I'm just very curious to see what happens when the Ds take over.......especially in this curious political climate where things are so polarized. My expectation is that we'll have a honeymoon when Biden takes over, as everyone will want very much for him to succeed.....but then things will get complicated. I want to see what happens then.

Cheers!

[Plantagenet]

Many Ds are urging BIden to chicken out of the planned debates with Trump

democrats-urging-biden-not-debate-trump

There are plenty of excuses Biden could use to avoid debating. He could say its impossible to hold a debate because of the virus, or say he's got another more important engagement on his calendar that day. Ds are also urging Biden to say the debate would be unfair to him because Trump won't play fair in the debate so what's the point in debating when you know you're going to lose....

But so far Biden hasn't chickened out of the debates.

In fact, I think Biden could chicken out of the debates and it wouldn't even hurt him in the polls.

But nonetheless I hope the debates go ahead .... and Biden winds up destroying Trump during the debate.

If Biden doesn't debate it will tarnish his electoral victory because it will appear that Joe was too cowardly to debate because he feared couldn't do it due to senility. If Joe doesn't debate its like openly admitting he's too senile to debate....So the best thing for the country would be for Biden to debate Trump....and to win the debates....and then for the country to join together in putting behind us the false rumors that Joe is Senile and instead join in applauding Joe's quick wit as displayed in his debate victories.

After Joe vanquishes Trump in the debates it will be on to electoral victory with no taint of cowardice and no remaining questions about Joe's mental competence.


Biden should ignore the Ds pleading with him to chicken out ofthe debates.....BIden should use the debates as his opportunity to defeat Trump mano-a-mano and put to rest the rumors that he is senile.

Cheers!

[asg70]

given the nature of our politics demonizing the other side is the way things are mostly done these days

You know all about that, don't you?

Personally, I don't support either the D or the R

You spend most of your time here bashing dems and making excuses for republicans.

An important concern for is that My main issue (climate change) isn't being adequately addressed by either party

Nor by your choice of lifestyle.

Ds say nice things and do nothing and Rs say bad things and do nothing.

The Rs do quite a bit--to actively gut environmental controls. But hey, I don't expect you to have a firm grasp on reality, but your falsehoods deserve being corrected now and then.

I want to see what happens then.

I'm sure you will personally highlight every conceivable point of criticism that can be served upon Biden, no matter how trivial, just as you did with Obama and failed to do with Trump.

[Plantagenet]

I''m sure you will personally highlight every conceivable point of criticism that can be served upon Biden

I'm sure you understand very little of what you read.

Yes, I criticize Biden and Trump and even the saintly Obama when they do stupid things.

IMHO no one is perfect and no one is above criticism.

But I also praise our political leaders when they do good things and I support them where I think they should be supported.

For instance, in my post above I called for Biden to debate Trump and soundly defeat him and then to go on and win the 2020 election

Calling for Biden to defeat Trump is not a criticism of Biden ..... except in your bent little mind

Cheers!