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President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 15:33:13

lpetrich wrote:The Republican Party started out as a northern party, but it and the Democrats have exchanged strongholds over the mid and late 20th century to the point that the Republican Party is now the party of Jefferson Davis.

Republican Mississippi Senator Trent Lott said as much back in 1984: "The spirit of Jefferson Davis lives in the 1984 Republican Platform." Trent Lott - Wikiquote

Looking at what Abraham Lincoln pushed, he seems much like some present-day Democrat. Maybe not a Bernie Sanders Democrat or an AOC Democrat, but maybe a Clinton Democrat or a Pelosi Democrat or an Obama Democrat.
  • He fought a war against the South.
  • He raised taxes to finance the war.
  • He supported civil-rights efforts: abolition of slavery.
  • He supported education efforts: land-grant colleges.
  • He supported infrastructure construction: the Transcontinental Railroad.
  • He supported giveaways of "free stuff": the Homestead Act, with its giveaway of government land.
If Lincoln Were Alive, He'd Be a Democrat | History News Network
Abraham Lincoln was not in fact much of a Republican when he was alive. Lincoln was for most of his life a proud member of the Whig party whose platform of harnessing the power of the government to invest in the public good is not greatly different in substance than of modern mainstream Democrats. ...

A reincarnated Lincoln would relive part of his past life listening to the states' rights arguments contemporary Republican use against any proposal to help working families. The man who created the Department of Agriculture would recoil at the anti-government diatribes of House Republicans. The president who levied an income tax on the wealthy would have be shocked at George W. Bush's disproportionate tax cut to the wealthiest one percent. The chief executive who believed in practical action to regulate the marketplace such as standardizing railroad gauges across the country would face a barrage of paranoia about big government from the right wing think tanks and media. But above all the president who did everything he could to avoid a war would not have sent Americans into battle on false or faulty pretenses based on slanted intelligence.



Completely incorrect. Where to begin?

The Republican Party was founded by Abraham Lincoln, aka as "The Great Emancipator". The roots were the anti-slavery movement, which did in fact originate in a Northern religious organization called the Quakers. (Contrary to popular belief, Benjamin Franklin was not a Quaker and does not appear on the Quaker Oats container.) Anti-slavery beliefs predominated in the North among both religious and secular peoples, before and after the Civil War.

Jefferson Davis was the President of the Confederacy and a former US Senator (from Missisippi) and former US Secretary of War (now called Sec. of Defense). After the Civil War he remained a staunch advocate of slavery and the expansion of this practice into the Western Territories and Texas. He also served two years for Treason and was pardonned and released from prison.

During the entire period of the Reconstruction, right up until the Civil rights era in the 1960s, the South was solidly Democratic, extremely Right Wing, and very very much anti-Civil Rights. The KKK was what we now call a Domestic Terrorist organization, and every convicted Klansman was in fact a Democrat.

Understand that the Dixiecrats (as they came to be called) were as far right as has ever existed in American politics. The only really identifiable Right Wing organization in the North was the John Birch Society, which was founded in Wisconsin in 1958, and was staunchly anti-Communist. The Democrats were reformed in the 1960 Presidential election by John and Bobby Kennedy, who instituted the "Camelot Reforms". They also split the Democrats right down the middle, which arguably lost the 1968 election to Nixon.

The Dixiecrats remained a Right Wing power group in the Democratic Party until the 1990s, and were led by former KKK member Robert Byrd.

Don't try selling revisionist history here!
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 14:39:04

I’m sure Ds like Ipet are ashamed of the history of the D party but the facts are pretty clear. The Ds were the party of slavery, the KKK, treason and the Confederacy, segregation and Jim Crow. Even today the Ds are the party of racial quotas and affirmative action (ie reverse racial discrimination).

The Ds have a shameful history IMHO. That’s just how it is.

Cheers!
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 19:24:18

Cog wrote:Lets pretend 10 backpack nukes go off critically damaging either communication nodes, refineries, or electrical generation plants. You are in charge of the entire US nuclear strike force. Who do you strike at? China, Pakistan, Russia, Iran, who?

Who are you talking to?

Do you have a point?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Fri 08 Feb 2019, 22:28:24

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Cog wrote:Lets pretend 10 backpack nukes go off critically damaging either communication nodes, refineries, or electrical generation plants. You are in charge of the entire US nuclear strike force. Who do you strike at? China, Pakistan, Russia, Iran, who?

Who are you talking to?

Do you have a point?


Since I responded to your post right after you made it, its probably you. LOL
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby lpetrich » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 07:47:09

Plantagenet wrote:I’m sure Ds like Ipet are ashamed of the history of the D party but the facts are pretty clear. The Ds were the party of slavery, the KKK, treason and the Confederacy, segregation and Jim Crow.

By that standard, the Republicans are the party of:
  • Northern aggression against the South.
  • Raising taxes, that is, stealing more money.
  • Giveaways of free stuff: subsidies for railroad-building, grants of land for land-grant colleges, and giving away government land in the Homestead Act.
  • Crony capitalism: subsidies for railroad-building.
  • Theft by redefinition: depriving slaveowners of the slaves that they owned.
  • Destruction of property: General Sherman in Georgia.
According to that argument, it's hard to imagine why anyone would want to be a Republican -- that party is thus the party of aggressive war, theft, destruction of property, and giveaways of free stuff.

Even today the Ds are the party of racial quotas and affirmative action (ie reverse racial discrimination).

Desperation. Anything to win arguments I guess. The KKK *opposed* the civil-rights movement of the 1950's and 1960's, and Northern Democrats were much better on civil rights than Southern Democrats and somewhat better than Republicans.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 08:08:33

Sorry your girl lost.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 08:37:43

lpetrich wrote:By that standard, the Republicans are the party of:
  • Northern aggression against the South.
  • Raising taxes, that is, stealing more money.
  • Giveaways of free stuff: subsidies for railroad-building, grants of land for land-grant colleges, and giving away government land in the Homestead Act.
  • Crony capitalism: subsidies for railroad-building.
  • Theft by redefinition: depriving slaveowners of the slaves that they owned.
  • Destruction of property: General Sherman in Georgia.
.

[1] Ended centuries of slavery.
[2] Were fiscally responsible and paid the bills.
[3] Opened the west, converted wilderness to farmland, supported higher education.
[4] Built a modern transportation network economically.
[5] Punished slave owners by depriving them of their ill gotten gains.
[6] Rebuilt the south after the Rebels caused it's destruction.
It is all in your point of view .
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby lpetrich » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 09:38:14

Cog wrote:Sorry your girl lost.

There you go again.

I remembered something else in response to Plantagenet's arguments. By his argument, the Republican Party is the party of increasing the power and influence of the Federal Government. Along with being the party of aggression, theft, and giveaways of free stuff.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 10:53:31

You realize ipetrich that your avatar is racist as it represents the Frog God Kek. Shame on you for being on that white nationalist team.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 13:05:18

lpetrich wrote:I remembered something else in response to Plantagenet's arguments. By his argument, the Republican Party is the party of increasing the power and influence of the Federal Government. .


Please restrict your comments to your own point of view. When you try to paraphrase what others have said, you consistently get it wrong. What you are doing is called the "straw man" argument. You make up something indefensible and then you attribute it to another poster and then you refute you own silly statement.

Strawmen arguments are inherently flawed and dishonest.

If you have to discuss what others have said, then use the quote function. Thats what its for---next time please quote directly what other posters say and then respond to what was actually said. That way the discussions can move forward based on what people actually say and no one has to waste time refuting your dishonest "straw man" arguments.

Cheers!
Last edited by Plantagenet on Sat 09 Feb 2019, 13:51:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 13:09:26

How quickly we get off topic. The topic is Trump's domestic policies and actions. Not Republican and Democrat party history, not Trump vs. Clinton, not anything else.

Note that I detest Trump the man about as much as most people. I have never been either a Republican or a Democrat, although I have voted for both on occasion, and several 3rd parties.

I would be glad to debate the History of either or both major parties in the appropriate thread, Ipetrich. History was one of my minors and I publish in the field. You appear to have a bunch of mistatken opinions based on pure tripe that you probably read somewhere on the WWW. The short version is that the Democrats do have a long and shameful history of oppression dating back to the founding of the modern Democratic party by Andrew Jackson, slave owner, advocate of Indian relocation, and creator of the "Trail of Tears" that decimated the Cherokee Nation. The KKK stilll exists, it is NOT a political party, it advocates racial segregation, and it's membership is full of registered Democrats. There are reprehensible people in all political parties, I do not doubt. However, I could never in clear conscience be a Democrat, given the way they have in the past and continue to oppress minorities.

You yourself have not learned the single greatest lesson of adulthood, which is that you ignore what they SAY and observe what they DO. The Democrats talk about inclusion and savagely oppress minorities.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby lpetrich » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 19:15:55

Plantagenet wrote:
lpetrich wrote:I remembered something else in response to Plantagenet's arguments. By his argument, the Republican Party is the party of increasing the power and influence of the Federal Government. .

Please restrict your comments to your own point of view. ...

Here is what I meant:
  1. The Republican Party supports Abraham Lincoln's policies.
  2. Abraham Lincoln supported increasing the power and influence of the Federal Government
  3. Therefore, the Republican Party supports increasing the power and influence of the Federal Government.
Plantagenet, you seem like you are arguing (1). I was pointing out (2) and noting that (3) is a consequence of (1) and (2).
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 19:42:43

It was not the North who attacked the South first. Lincoln tried to avoid the war even if that meant leaving slavery in place in the South. But the South was determined to break up the Union and by firing on Fort Sumter they made war unavoidable. So if you want to blame someone for the increase in federalism, blame the Southern Democrats whose arrogance and desire to keep men as slaves as the direct cause of it.

So how does all of this apply today? There are Democrats who want to create The Democratic Socialist States of America. This too will lead to an inevitable war unless sanity is restored in the Democratic Party.
Last edited by Cog on Sat 09 Feb 2019, 19:45:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 19:43:13

It has been 154 years sense Lincoln was assassinated. The Republican party of today has policies appropriate to today's conditions and any remnant of Lincoln's policies is a matter of logic not a blind adherence to his founding principles.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 19:45:45

FWIW, I think both major parties are in favor of more and bigger government. The Libertarians and some other 3rd parties are not.

In fact, I see no major differences between the Republicans and the Democrats with regard to what they actually DO while in power. They TALK very different talks, but they DO pretty much all the same things. Prime among these are selling legislation and access to policymakers for cash money through the system of lobbyists. Thus the American Oligharchy perpetuates itself.

The really disruptive thing that Trump is doing is playing favorites. He himself is one of the oligharchs, which has not happened in the last century, and nobody is comfortable with the "disruption of the corruption" that pervades both Democrats and Republicans.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 20:09:41

"disruption of the corruption

I like that. Too bad that Trump and company are not better at disrupting it.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 20:50:44

lpetrich wrote:Here is what I meant:

[*]The Republican Party supports Abraham Lincoln's policies.
[*]Abraham Lincoln supported increasing the power and influence of the Federal Government
[*]Therefore, the Republican Party supports increasing the power and influence of the Federal Government.


Federal power and Presidential power ALWAYS increases dramatically during times of war because the country is put on a war footing and the President, as military Commander-in-Chief, is usually more concerned with winning the war then with constitutional niceties.

Yes, Lincoln expanded the power of the Federal government during the civil war. But consider the fact that Wilson also expanded the power of the Federal government during the first world war and Roosevelt similarly expanded the power of the federal government during the second world war.

Your suggestion that Lincoln's war policies with regard to the power and influence of the Federal Government during the civil war 150+ years are somehow a blueprint for the R party policies towards the power and influence of the federal government today is a bizarre idea, IMHO.

I've never heard anyone say that or suggest that except you because it very clearly isn't true.

Cheers!
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Sat 09 Feb 2019, 21:19:06

Plantagenet wrote: But consider the fact that Wilson also expanded the power of the Federal government during the first world war


What really shocked me about the entry of the US into the first world war was the extreme measures the Federal Government took to suppress opposition to the war.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 13 Feb 2019, 15:14:48

They say it often isn't the crime it is the cover up. What do you get when the media cover up a witch hunt?
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/ni ... o-evidence
By Nicholas Fondacaro | February 12, 2019 9:01 PM EST

According to an NBC News exclusive that first aired during the 10 o’clock hour of Tuesday morning’s MSNBC Live, both Republican and Democratic sources on the Senate Intelligence Committee admitted they had not found any direct evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. Despite the fact the exclusive was filed by NBC News intelligence and national security reporter Ken Dilanian, NBC Nightly News hid it from viewers. Meanwhile, ABC’s World News Tonight and the CBS Evening News also turned a blind eye.

Instead of reporting on their massive breaking news story that drove a flood of reporting by other outlets, NBC Nightly News and anchor Lester Holt chose to hype DNA tests for dogs. [UPDATE: NBC skipped its own reporting again on Today.]
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 13 Feb 2019, 16:10:13

VT,

I’m not seeing it on Fox or Realclearpolitics either.
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