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Methane Hydrate Fuel (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 11:15:07

Is a vast new source of energy a good thing to put in the hands of modern industrial society? Have we done wonderful things for the planet and ourselves with the energy we have tapped already?

If this is not the time to ask such deeper questions, I'm not sure what would be.
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 11:33:46

dohboi wrote:Is a vast new source of energy a good thing to put in the hands of modern industrial society? Have we done wonderful things for the planet and ourselves with the energy we have tapped already?

If this is not the time to ask such deeper questions, I'm not sure what would be.

Then you are just like pstarr. You don't actually care if oil production is about to peak or has already peaked, or whether we are reaching some "geologic limits" in increasing oil production, or blah blah blah. No, what you really are concerned about is that oil production doesn't peak any time soon.

In other words, you are not a peak oil "believer," you are a peak oil "advocate." You're trying to scare society away from increased oil consumption because you don't like the effects of oil consumption. You could actually care less how much additional oil could be recovered from the earth.

That said, imagine if this hydrate resource was true: Given the vast quantities of them, imagine if society could transition to an all-natural gas economy (or a mostly-natural gas economy). Given how much cleaner-burning natural gas is compared to oil, would you not regard this as a positive?
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 12:43:19

"Then you are just like pstarr."

Why, thank you. A higher complement I can scarcely imagine.

I see you chose not to attempt an answer to even one of my question. I understand your fear. They rock your world view too deeply for you to even try to comprehend them. Best wishes with that.
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby Maddog78 » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 12:57:51

Pay attention, he answered your question.
Clean burning NG is a good thing to put in the hands of modern industrial society.
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 13:23:43

It may be better than coal or oil from the global warming perspective, but even if it had no global warming consequences, it would further facilitate the rape of the planet that was going on long before gw became a clear and present danger.

Most biologists recognized that humans had started the sixth great extinction event since the beginning of complex life back in the '80's before the effects of gw had really started kicking in. Are we going to do any better this time.

Expecting new results from unchanged conditions is one good definition of insanity.
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby Maddog78 » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 13:35:35

Wow.
I got no reply to that.
OF2 is right, some of you guys can just about taste the doom and don't want to eat anything else.
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 13:48:22

Yeah, we are probably talking past each other here.

But just out of curiosity, which part of my post elicited the "Wow"? Have you not heard that we are in the sixth great extinction event, this one cause by us--we're at something like 10,000 times above the background rates of extinction? Wiki it if you want more info.

If not this, then do you think that somehow our use of the power that fossil fuels supplies us had nothing to do with our ability to so massively affect the living systems on the planet?

Where did I really lose you?
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby Maddog78 » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 13:59:39

Yeah, you got me on that sixth event deal.
Rape of the planet before any signs of GW kind of threw me, too.
I grew up in an oil, mining, farming and forestry area so what you probably call rape of the planet we called earning a living. :)
I'll look into this sixth event thing.
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 14:18:20

"I grew up in an oil, mining, farming and forestry area so what you probably call rape of the planet we called earning a living"

No, I actually think that consumers that are oblivious about where the stuff they use come from are more culpable than the folks that do the hard work of getting it for them.

The lowest rungs of moral hell I preserve for economists, but few of us are many rungs higher.
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 14:20:30

(double post)
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 14:56:18

pstarr wrote:Have you read the article OF? It says this--"Last Friday, the United States Geological Survey (USGS) announced the discovery of suitable conditions for mining methane hydrates . . It said nothing about commercial exploitation. Which was my latest point. You other articles make it very clear that such mining technologies do not exist.

You just lied. It has not been done.

Ummm . . .
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22756/
In the spring of 2008, a joint Canadian-Japanese expedition in Mallik in the Northwest Territories, Canada, established that methane hydrates could be harvested by using a water pump to depressurize a well already drilled into the reserve. This involved lowering the pressure by pumping out the water that naturally accumulates in the well. Crucially, it required only 10 to 15 percent of the energy represented by the gas that flowed out of the well, making it a much more viable approach than earlier methods used to harvest hydrates, which involved melting them with warm water. Standard oil and gas drilling equipment was used to reenter an old well drilled to a depth of 3,500 feet and then "refurbish" it by casing the entire well with lengths of steel tubing that cemented into place in order to prevent it from collapsing.

Hydrates require both cold temperatures and high pressure to form; eliminating either condition frees the gas from its icy cage, but past attempts to do this by heating the hydrates proved prohibitively difficult. The Canadian-Japanese expedition successfully produced up to 4,000 cubic meters of gas a day during a six-day trial in 2008 using depressurization.

Only the most dim-brained would be unable to make the obvious leap from making a successful test to commercialization.

But then, you're one of those people who would have said the Wright Brother's airplane did not prove the viability of commercial air flight.

:roll:

pstarr wrote:You have made it quite clear in this and previous posts that you are incapable of considering alternatives to environmental degradation, pollution, over-population, ecosystems collapse. You constantly deride constructive suggestions to our current quandries. You apparently have a single motive here--to prop up the current system and dismiss possible alternatives.

You OF2 are a complete and total flaming id&^t.

That statement merely proves my contention: All your talk about high-hanging fruit and unproven commercial viability of Technology X is just a smokescreen for your desire to see such things fail.

I've been waiting 40+ years for environmental Armageddon to occur. Still waiting.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 20:11:54

pstarr wrote:Do you really take yourself seriously Oily?

Yes, in fact I take myself quite seriously, thank you. It is you who I do not take seriously.

pstarr wrote:Do you recollect cold fusion? Some one claimed a successful test there also. There have been successful tests of clean coal, hydrogen fuel cells, cellulosic and algae ethanol, green river shale, tidal energy systems, etc etc. But none have scaled up to replace more than a tiny fraction of our quickly declining fossil fuel base. Hydrate are the same.

It shares characteristic with all the above 'alternatives'. They are difficult to procure, expensive to scale up, return much less net energy than conventional fossil fuels, are not convenient, do not return as much money on investment, and are difficult to collect and distribute.

What utter, complete denialist garbage! Here we have an article(s) explaining in clear detail how these hydrates were easily extracted, with a EROEI of 10:1, they extracted methane gas (nothing new about that), and you are so desperate to wish it away you're comparing it to cold fusion!

:roll:

And that IS what you are doing: Wishing it away.

pstarr wrote:
OilFinder2 wrote:But then, you're one of those people who would have said the Wright Brother's airplane did not prove the viability of commercial air flight.
You don't know me Oily. From squat.

How many solar panels do you have on your roof? How many walkable communities have you developed?

Oily you are stuck on the sidelines, making waves at internet forum. Big freaking deal. :twisted:

This was non-responsive.

But as I've explained to you before, I have a Master's degree in urban planning. I did my Master's thesis on growth management. Among other things I spent 2-1/2 years doing watershed planning for King County. If you think I know nothing about all this stuff, you are dead wrong.

I've even got an autographed copy of Al Gore's Earth in the Balance. 8O

I'm so sorry to hear your co-housing project was a failure. Hopefully it should have taught you something, but obviously it did not.

pstarr wrote:Define environmental Armageddon. Do collapsing salmon fisheries count? Ocean dead zones? Do these fit you definition? How about mass extinction? What do you say regarding declining human sperm counts? What kind of environmental declines would you categorize as 'Armageddon'? What counts as Armageddon?

You have got to me the most selfish, self-obsessed pointy-headed little twit I've yet to trounce on in these boards. Failing arable land and overpopulation is threatening human populations across the world. Yet Oily is happy in his little weenie internet world.

Blah blah blah. You sound just like Paul Erlich in 1968. And I'm still waiting for his environmental doomsday. There was already supposed to be a Malthusian catastrophe by now - heck I've even got another book from 1980 predicting yet another one. So we've supposedly were supposed to have multiple of these things by now.

Still waiting!

:roll:

The problem with people like you is you don't learn. You keep predicting the same crap over and over and over again, and it continually fails to come to pass over and over and over again. But does this teach you a lesson? No. You just keep pushing back your prediction by another 10 or 20 years, and then another 10 or 20 years after that, and so on and so forth, ad nauseum.

But hey, I don't mind, keep repeating it. I'm having a lot of fun pointing out to you when you're wrong! :lol:
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 21:09:39

pstarr wrote:10:1? Come on Oily. The stuff has never been commercially extracted, much less measured.

*sigh*

As usual, you didn't even read the articles I provided. This is (another) failing of yours - you don't pay attention:
Crucially, it required only 10 to 15 percent of the energy represented by the gas that flowed out of the well, making it a much more viable approach than earlier methods used to harvest hydrates, which involved melting them with warm water


pstarr wrote:You are an urban planner In the USA? That's quite the oxymoron. Have you done anything with the degree? Wal-Marts?

And you failed miserably at growth management. Did you hear about the bubble?

The fact that you would say something like that tells me you know absolutely nothing about growth management. Or urban planning, for that matter.

pstarr wrote:I am not predicting much of anything,

Oh really? I'd be more than happy to point out how many times recently you've told us:

1) We are past peak
2) The age of oil (and/or fossil fuels) is nearing an end
3) In this and other threads, you have incessantly predicted methane hydrates will never amount to anything
4) In multiple threads you have predicted oil shale will never amount to anything

And so on, and so forth. Prediction after prediction.

And BTW, here is that other book I was talking about, a 1980 book I saved - by now for the amusement value.

Image

And here's one of the chapters - describing that Malthusian crisis - yessiree, we were supposed to have a Malthusian crisis in 1994. A billion people or so starve to death.

:lol:

Image
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet - DOE

Unread postby copious.abundance » Mon 08 Jun 2009, 22:05:14

pstarr wrote:
OilFinder2 wrote:The fact that you would say something like that tells me you know absolutely nothing about growth management. Or urban planning, for that matter.
Yes I do know lots about 'growth management' and 'urban planning'

It simply does not exist in the USA. Have you ever heard of sprawl

I repeat: The fact that you state this indicates you know absolutely nothing about growth management and urban planning.

pstarr wrote:
OilFinder2 wrote:
pstarr wrote:I am not predicting much of anything,

Oh really? I'd be more than happy to point out how many times recently you've told us:

1) We are past peak
not a prediction. We are.

Ah yes, a prediction. I shall be bookmarking this post.

pstarr wrote:
OilFinder2 wrote:2) The age of oil (and/or fossil fuels) is nearing an end
of course it is.
OilFinder2 wrote:3) In this and other threads, you have incessantly predicted methane hydrates will never amount to anything
they haven't and you have no proof they will.

Wow, brilliant response.

But hey, I can do that too: You have no proof they won't.

pstarr wrote:
OilFinder2 wrote:4) In multiple threads you have predicted oil shale will never amount to anything
Yes. I will say it again for you and the others here who do not buy your planet-destroying techtopian BS. Ready? "Oil shale is a ugly dirty waste of resources and our beautiful planet" There. I feel much better. :)

Yet more proof you don't actually care if oil shale can or will be economically viable, or whether it can "scale up," or whether it will ever amount to anything. All your garbage about this-and-that never becoming viable is just a smokescreen. You could actually care less about the geologic and economic issues surrounding oil production. The only reason you push it is because you want it to be true. Everything else is unimportant.

You remind me of the people who go to church and try to believe the religion not because they actually believe the religion, but because they're afraid there might not be a life after death. The merits of the religion itself are irrelevant. It is an act of deliberate self-delusion just in order to soothe yourself.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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