[AdamB]

As we have seen at least twice before trying to be isolationist/ neutral just postpones the inevitable and greatly increases the final cost in both blood and treasure.

In both WWI and WWII, the USA ended up getting involved because of a deliberate British propaganda campaign.

Okay, hang on a second now. I don't know about WWI origins other than they were weird, but for the US, you want to claim that Japan attacking Pearl Harbor was because the Brits convinced them to? And then Winston flew to Berlin and convinced the little mustache dude to declare war against the US?

Yeah, you've got to better than just making a claim that sounds that ridiculous.

[vtsnowedin]

The only real question about pearl Harbor is why the commanders there were not expecting that attack and ready to defend against it.
The public information alone of our clamping down on exports to Japan of steel and oil should have rung alarm bells in every command post.
Was it just lucky that the carriers were not in port? And no I do not know the answer to that one.

[AdamB]

The only real question about pearl Harbor is why the commanders there were not expecting that attack and ready to defend against it.

Supposedly Admital Kimmel was a good general, keeping everyone trained and ready. Perhaps a good peace time general, but he weren't no Halsey.

[AdamB]

$4.79/gal regular unleaded, Farmington New Mexico.

$4.69/gal regular unleaded, Almosa Colorado.

[theluckycountry]

Was it just lucky that the carriers were not in port? And no I do not know the answer to that one.

It's interesting that today any group that contests the government's standard line is branded as conspiracy nutjobs. They have taken the word "conspiracy" and turned it into a definition of mental illness so that the public in general looks at these alternate theories as Mad and disregards them. A conspiracy is "Not real" in other words.

I explained to a group of such people that the United states was actually founded by a conspiracy, a successful conspiracy between wealthy American landholders and the British Crown that was taxing the guts out of them. It was plotting against a reining monarch, a very serious offense if you are caught and prosecuted, but these men won through with their actions and the victor writes the history don't they.

[AdamB]

Was it just lucky that the carriers were not in port? And no I do not know the answer to that one.

It's interesting that today any group that contests the government's standard line is branded as conspiracy nutjobs.

No...conspiracy nutjob are branded conspiracy nutjobs because, you know, they ARE. It isn't like their brand of nuttery is hard to spot, regardless of the particular nuttery involved.

[Doly]

I don't know about WWI origins other than they were weird, but for the US, you want to claim that Japan attacking Pearl Harbor was because the Brits convinced them to? And then Winston flew to Berlin and convinced the little mustache dude to declare war against the US?

No, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because the opportunity existed, and the opportunity existed because the US left it deliberately open. The US needed some sort of valid excuse to get into WWII, after British propaganda was effective enough to convince enough people that it had to happen. So the US government convinced itself that there were good enough reasons to get involved in the Asian mess, in full knowledge that Britain would also be involved in it and that the Axis powers would very likely take the side of Japan, on the grounds that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Which they promptly did.

[AdamB]

I don't know about WWI origins other than they were weird, but for the US, you want to claim that Japan attacking Pearl Harbor was because the Brits convinced them to? And then Winston flew to Berlin and convinced the little mustache dude to declare war against the US?

No, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because the opportunity existed, and the opportunity existed because the US left it deliberately open.

So...because America was lazy and not paying attention, it was the perfect excuse for Japan to attack? That might be haklfway believable, but Churchhill being involved in somehow convincing the little mustached guy to declare war within a day or two to help out...Winston?

The US needed some sort of valid excuse to get into WWII, after British propaganda was effective enough to convince enough people that it had to happen.

History isn't in dispute, your claim of how it works apparently is. British propaganda didn't cause the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, Yamamoto's understanding of potential interference by the American Pacific Fleet and their presence in the Phillipines when Japan decided to grab Papa New Guinea and Indonesia was the problem.

That led to the attack on Pearl, and in that instant, gave Roosevelt exactly what he wanted. I'm not saying he wasn't sympathetic to the European issue, but he had sat on his ass for years, and was trying to get involved, and it just wasn't working politically. Japan cured that problem for him one day, and the little mustached dude just made it childs play to get what he had wanted, and couldn't get, all along.

Lobbying for help by folks like Winston didn't cause anything. Actions by others did, and handed Roosevelt what he needed to unite a country, and helping out his friend in Europe was just one of those things.

The US might have been looking for an excuse...

...and couldn't get any to work across years....

So the US government convinced itself that there were good enough reasons to get involved in the Asian mess, in full knowledge that Britain would also be involved in it and that the Axis powers would very likely take the side of Japan, on the grounds that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Which they promptly did.

The US was in the Phillipines since 1898. You want to pretend a strategic thing going on since 1898 was propaganda, or that the Japanese needed it gone to get what they wanted? Which they then did, and it wasn't because Churchill had anything to do with that military strategic balance in Asia. Other than they were in the mix, because they owned some of those properties that the Japanese needed as well.

[vtsnowedin]

First to WW1.
It depends on how cynical you are. Some would say the sinking of the Lusitania with American citizens on board and lost was enough.Others would say the U-Boat war on shipping including US war supplies on their way to France was enough, and the cynics would say that America and it's bankers had lent so much capital to Allies that they would lose billions if the Germans won and a defeat would bankrupt much of America.
Probably a combination of all three and My father was surprised when the US and he were dragged into it.
Now WW2:
The war had been going on for two years in Europe and mostly going badly for the Allies and we were shipping them as much war material as we could given strong anti war sentiment here. Hitler had invaded the Soviet Union in late June so Stalin became one of our allies. Churchill was begging us for more weapons daily just like Zeleniski is today and we were shipping them through U-Boat infested waters to both England and Russia. .
Japan had been in Manchuria for quite a while and their ambitions were pretty well known including the oil in Indonesia and the mineral wealth of Australia. Our Philippines bases were in their way.
The cynic side of me says our Embargo of oil and steel among other things in 1940 pushed Japan to the attack.

America, first under President Herbert Hoover and then Franklin D. Roosevelt initially responded with diplomatic protests. When they failed to curb Japanese aggression, Roosevelt upped the ante. In 1938, the State Department advised banks at home and abroad not to extend credit to Japanese businesses. In 1939, the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty between the United States and Japan. This led to an American embargo initially of airplanes, parts, machine tools, and aviation gasoline. The embargo was expanded in 1940 to include oil, iron and steel scrap, and other commodities. Sharing America’s concerns, Great Britain and the Netherlands joined in the economic embargo.

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/sto ... ed-to-war/
So sanctions will bring an enemy to heel and prevent war? Sounds like something Biden said mid February.
The cynic in me also thinks the ivy league guys in Washington that were in charge had little idea of the limitations of our military preparedness and thought the expected attack would be quickly and soundly repulsed.
But they got their "incident" and war declaration and all anti war rhetoric was squashed and the American industrial machinery was set to work 24 /7/ 365.

[JuanP]

The cynic side of me says our embargo of oil and steel among other things in 1940 pushed Japan to the attack.

The cynic side of me agrees with the cynic side of you on this point.

[AdamB]

The cynic side of me says our embargo of oil and steel among other things in 1940 pushed Japan to the attack.

The cynic side of me agrees with the cynic side of you on this point.

This is a perfectly valid point. And part of the strategic issue that Japan was facing. America was in their way. Both in terms of their colonial properties, where the oil was, where American bases were, and the size and shape of the Pacific Fleet. I think there was some irritation in general as well, how dare those white eyes be involved in our rightful sphere of influence!! But Churchill causing this through propaganda? No, but he sure wouldn't have objected to it happening through the normal course of events. The godsend was the little mustached guy solving the rest of the problem for him.

[vtsnowedin]

Churchill had war thrust on him by Hitler and if there is any British cause to the war it goes back to the treaty ending WW1 which impoverished the German people and built up levels of hatred that allowed Hitlers rise.
Once the war started in 1939 Churchill of course called in all the aid it could from colonies and the former colony of the USA which had far greater resources and industrial capacity then the UK or France.
ON Japans side one can look back to TR's great white fleet cruise around the Pacific where he emboldened Japan to be come expansionist.
So the seeds of war were planted some twenty five years earlier and it took that long to raise up a generation of new soldiers and fit out navies and armies.

[AdamB]

Churchill had war thrust on him by Hitler and if there is any British cause to the war it goes back to the treaty ending WW1 which impoverished the German people and built up levels of hatred that allowed Hitlers rise.

Sure. Doly seems to have claimed that Roosevelt was schnookered into WWII because of British propaganda. Apparently Pearl Harbor had nothing to do with it in the East, and Germany declaring war on the US had nothing to do with it in the west. Silly Roosevelt, apparently he would have decided to NOT go to war with Germany after they declared it on the US first.

[AdamB]

Lowest local prices after recent late night run for the wife to collect a collectible.

$376/gal, regular unleaded, grocery store gas price

[AdamB]

Gasoline At (or Under) $2.99 a Gallon: Here's Where

Link

[AdamB]

The Status of Global Oil Production (Part 3)
By Roger Blanchard, originally published by Resilience.org
August 16, 2022

Link

[AdamB]

Local price of regular unleaded as of yesterday was down to $3.09/gal

Looks like Sleepy Joe's war on the oil industry is failing, if prices are returning this quiclly down to more normal.

Link.

U.S. gas prices are now at their lowest level since Russia invaded Ukraine in February, sending prices soaring.
But at $3.61, it's still the highest price ever recorded for the week of Thanksgiving by AAA.
Blame inflation.
“The national average has fallen sharply since the June peak of nearly $5.02,” AAA spokesman Andrew Gross said in a statement. “But this Thanksgiving will be about 20 cents higher than a year ago, and a dollar more per gallon than a pre-pandemic 2019."

[vtsnowedin]

B S as the local station here is charging $4.00 to keep the doors open. Not a small station either as they have six double sided gas pumps and two diesel pumps. I just bought beer and wine.

[AdamB]

B S as the local station here is charging $4.00 to keep the doors open.

Hey, don't blame me for what the gas prices are here, versus in your energy meager state. You folks might be lacking both heating oil, natural gas and electricity because of the policies at your end of the country. Buy some oil stocks to make up for the disadvantage of where you live? Perhaps you suffer from high state or local fuel taxes?

Not a small station either as they have six double sided gas pumps and two diesel pumps. I just bought beer and wine.

Well, when I use some accumulated grocery points to get discounted fuel prices on even that $3.09/gal, I'll be thinking about the disadvantages of being a New England flat lander.

And I don't even buy much liquid fuel, just noticed when I filled up the snowmobile when it snowed a couple days ago.

[ROCKMAN]

Just a reminder that inflation adjusted price of motor fuel should be the focus...not just current prices.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/Gasoline-(all-types)/price-inflation