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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby phaster » Mon 27 Dec 2021, 18:40:42

The_Toecutter wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:The light , evolved golf cart or hightec. trike of the future might run in the $4000 to $12,000 range and be an addition to your garage not your primary or foul weather vehicle.
Of course if we get $10.00+ gas and 0.40/KWH electricity such a vehicle might get pressed into 90 percent of your driving, especially if it can be charged by your off grid roof top solar panels.


I've already built that vehicle and use it as my daily driver.

I get slightly more than 100 miles per kWh(no joke, not a typo). It tops out at 45 mph, has a brushless PMDC hub motor with a 46.8V 31AH battery, gets a 200 mile range @ 30 mph, a 150 mile range @ 35 mph, and is efficient enough that using the separate bicycle drivetrain I can even turn the motor off and pedal it to 35 mph on flat ground in a sprint. I can carry 40 lbs of groceries in the trunk without a problem. In its current form, it could be replicated for about $3,000 of mostly expensive, low-volume, hand-built parts and with hundreds of hours of labor hand-assembling it. Which means it's not out of the realm of plausibility such a vehicle could be mass produced and sold for under $2,000 if the market existed for such a thing. It currently weighs about 90 lbs and I'm running the motor at about 3 peak horsepower, which is enough to do donuts in parking lots and out-accelerate some of the slower cars at the stoplights, but the low battery pack voltage limits its top speed. Cruising at 45 mph, I'm not even using 1 horsepower from the motor to maintain speed.

Once I get enough time off work, I'm going to upgrade it. It needs a roll cage, more slippery body shell, hydraulic brakes, an added rear suspension(currently only has front shocks), and I have in my possession the parts required to make it able to reach a 100+ mph top speed with motorcycle-like acceleration all of the way there with the motor in use. It's going to make about 13 peak horsepower when I am done with it, which for what the vehicle is, will be plenty. If necessity dictates, it will still be pedalable with the motor completely shut off at slightly faster than bicycle-appropriate speeds in most terrain(with steep uphill climbs, with the motor shut off it will be slower than a bicycle due to the mass). Some solar panels are on the way for it as well, which will be integrated into the next body shell design. 150W or so should be enough to cruise 25 mph all-day-long in direct sunlight, no pedaling required, without draining anything from the battery pack. Sunlight plus modest pedaling would increase that to about 30 mph, without draining the battery. I plan to make it efficient enough that a 2.5 kWh battery pack could get it about 100 miles range @ 70 mph, increasing that to 120 miles with the solar helping out in good weather.

And because the battery pack is so small, in terms of recharge time, a common 110V outlet is the equivalent to Level II or ChaDeMo charging and a 220V outlet is the equivalent to a Tesla Supercharger.

I have in mind building a "car" that is suitable for a single person, that is so light and efficient that energy costs, no matter what they might become, will remain a non-issue. So efficient, you could put a bicycle drivetrain in it and with the motor disabled you could pedal it to near-highway speeds(at least on flat ground), or while using the motor, cruise highway speeds with a small amount of pedaling akin in effort to walking accounting for nearly 1/3 of the amount of the energy used to move the vehicle. And it will be fast enough to out-accelerate vehicles with 15-20x its horsepower with the motor in use.

Best of all, my vehicle concept uses a lot of low-tech and dumb-tech.


last November (2020) took delivery of an electric trike an FUV from Arcimoto

www.Arcimoto.com

it's the perfect urban "covid" transport (threw "covid" into the description because its "open air")

I've got a couple thousand miles on it now, basically using it to get out of the house to pick up "to-go" food,... what I find really noticeable is how loud and smoky ICE vehicles are at stoplights

even though the FUV is capable of achieving freeway speeds, I don't find it enjoyable on the freeway in traffic because at gets noisy w/ the wind AND what I find annoying is the sounds of other car tires,... have an old land cruiser and also find the tread noise from all terrain tires also pretty annoying at freeway speeds

basically what I find enjoyable on my FUV is just cruising around neighborhood streets

years ago thought about a GEM which is a NEV (neighborhood electric vehicle) or said another way it a street legal golf cart

basically didn't' get it because I live in an area w/ hills so an NEV (i.e. golf car) would have been annoying to drive
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 27 Dec 2021, 23:09:32

phaster wrote:last November (2020) took delivery of an electric trike an FUV from Arcimoto

http://www.Arcimoto.com

it's the perfect urban "covid" transport (threw "covid" into the description because its "open air")

I've got a couple thousand miles on it now, basically using it to get out of the house to pick up "to-go" food,... what I find really noticeable is how loud and smoky ICE vehicles are at stoplights

even though the FUV is capable of achieving freeway speeds, I don't find it enjoyable on the freeway in traffic because at gets noisy w/ the wind AND what I find annoying is the sounds of other car tires,... have an old land cruiser and also find the tread noise from all terrain tires also pretty annoying at freeway speeds

basically what I find enjoyable on my FUV is just cruising around neighborhood streets


You lucky guy.

I visited the FUV factory in Oregon several years ago and put my money down on a FUV order.

Unfortunately they still aren't doing Alaska deliveries so I haven't gotten it yet.

Of course it wouldn't do me a lot of good right now as we're having a particularly nasty winter this year in Alaska.

I hope you are enjoying your arcimoto FUV immensely.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 28 Dec 2021, 09:54:02

phaster wrote:
I've got a couple thousand miles on it now, basically using it to get out of the house to pick up "to-go" food,... what I find really noticeable is how loud and smoky ICE vehicles are at stoplights


Our new 2021 Subaru Forester shuts it's engine down at stop signs and traffic lights to save gas and reduce pollution. It does restart almost instantly when you press the accelerator pedal but being old school I find it a bit annoying. There is an override button if needed but it resets to auto every trip. Not really a problem for me as my town does not have even one traffic light.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 28 Dec 2021, 09:56:51

vtsnowedin wrote: Our new 2021 Subaru Forester shuts it's engine down at stop signs and traffic lights to save gas and reduce pollution. It does restart almost instantly when you press the accelerator pedal but being old school I find it a bit annoying. There is an override button if needed but it resets to auto every trip. Not really a problem for me as my town does not have even one traffic light.


The Ford Explorer I recently experienced was the same. It came alive at a stop light after you lifted from the brake pedal. I also found it annoying, and by the end of my 10 days with it, would just push the "please stop that crap" button as soon as it started.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 28 Dec 2021, 10:00:51

AdamB wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: Our new 2021 Subaru Forester shuts it's engine down at stop signs and traffic lights to save gas and reduce pollution. It does restart almost instantly when you press the accelerator pedal but being old school I find it a bit annoying. There is an override button if needed but it resets to auto every trip. Not really a problem for me as my town does not have even one traffic light.


The Ford Explorer I recently experienced was the same. It came alive at a stop light after you lifted from the brake pedal. I also found it annoying, and by the end of my 10 days with it, would just push the "please stop that crap" button as soon as it started.

These newest vehicles do take some getting used to. When it started steering itself (or more precisely corrected my steering) I thought a wheel was coming off. :shock:
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 28 Dec 2021, 10:15:38

vtsnowedin wrote: When it started steering itself (or more precisely corrected my steering) I thought a wheel was coming off. :shock:


You can't turn that off? My older EV does it, but you have to turn it on, on purpose. The Ford Explorer had a button that activated it as well, but it wasn't on by default. I tried it out on a back road, and just took my hands off the wheel to see what happened. It steered itself between centerline and edge for about 5-10 seconds, and then went berserk, lights flashing, it took over the throttle, and tried to get me all the way off the road like I had suffered a heart attack or something.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 28 Dec 2021, 19:30:29

Yes you can turn it off but not while using the advanced cruise control. It surprised me because we had not yet read all of the owners manual so I did not expect it. It insists on being exactly in the center of a lane which means you are driving in the worn wheel ruts which leaves all the bridge expansion dams as sharp edges trying to cut your tires.
I prefer to, and normally, drive a foot or so to one side of exact center towards the more empty lane to reduce the bumps at the bridges and also to reduce hydroplaning hazard when it is raining.
Mine also gets excited if you take both hands off the wheel for any great time which is fine as it does not deal well where the edge lines are not up to snuff.
This system is a big safety improvement but has a long way to go to become completely self driving. I expect a vehicle made about 2025 to be a leap ahead of this.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Tue 28 Dec 2021, 21:06:20

I really want to get an EV as my next car but the maths still doenst add up

The ego is saying one last "fun" car before the inevitable road to Damascus conversion to EV for the one after

Unless they come up with a "fun" EV which I can afford before then,Im a few years from my next car the one Im driving is still in good nick for a 14 year old
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 28 Dec 2021, 21:57:46

Shaved Monkey wrote:I really want to get an EV as my next car but the maths still doenst add up


I'm currently paying about $30/month more in my electric bill, to drive about 800 miles a month in mine. $0.04/mile? My other EV, when using the range extender, 45 mpg, $3.10/gallon, is $0.07/mile. So all EV is close to half as much as a very efficient car. My more normal selectable AWD, turbo-4 burning premium and getting 25mpg around town is $0.15/mile.

What are your maths? Have terribly expensive local utility provider for your electricity?

ShavedMonkey wrote:The ego is saying one last "fun" car before the inevitable road to Damascus conversion to EV for the one after


Perfect reason to choose ICE. Until you drag race against a Model S plaid anyway, or even road course one, then it doesn't matter how much fun your ICE powered machine is, it's just another toad compared to a full blown "fun" EV.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 28 Dec 2021, 23:43:42

I think the jury is still out on EVs in cold climates. Especially if it is not housed inside a heated garage and the fire hazard on that is not yet dis proven.
If I get the chance I will take the plunge and get real world experience on those factors but I will not park and charge an EV close enough to my house to risk the house in the event of a charging fire.
I expect models will soon be able ,while still connected to the charger, to bring the seats and cabin up to comfortable temperatures on a cold winters day before the driver starts his or her trip and not draw the battery down to do that but how much range is lost keeping the passengers comfortable over a long cold trip remains unknown at least for future versions.
If they can not solve those issues it might become that EVs become popular in Southern states while ICE vehicles remain the minimum standard over the Northern tier.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 29 Dec 2021, 00:22:04

vtsnowedin wrote:
I expect models will soon be able ,while still connected to the charger, to bring the seats and cabin up to comfortable temperatures on a cold winters day before the driver starts his or her trip and not draw the battery down to do that but how much range is lost keeping the passengers comfortable over a long cold trip remains unknown at least for future versions.


I've got 2, one a 2014 model, and one a 2015. They both already do this. The wife loves the feature, the car prepping itself from the wall socket for proper temperature (it heats and cools while plugged in ) before she ever gets in it.

Interestingly, the 2014 effectively becomes just an ICE powered cage at about 10-15F, the battery just can't do anything until the car warms up, and then provides waste heat to warm the battery. The other, it has a heater for the battery I believe, and there is some light combination on the dash that activates to tell you it is happening, but I haven't encountered it in my year with it yet. It sits in an unheated garage, and rarely goes below freezing.

The pure EV becomes less efficient at lower temps, I would venture that once storage temps are <40F, I lose about 10% of mile/kWh because of the battery temp, and using heaters for the passengers.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Wed 29 Dec 2021, 03:32:17

AdamB wrote:
Shaved Monkey wrote:I really want to get an EV as my next car but the maths still doenst add up


I'm currently paying about $30/month more in my electric bill, to drive about 800 miles a month in mine. $0.04/mile? My other EV, when using the range extender, 45 mpg, $3.10/gallon, is $0.07/mile. So all EV is close to half as much as a very efficient car. My more normal selectable AWD, turbo-4 burning premium and getting 25mpg around town is $0.15/mile.

What are your maths? Have terribly expensive local utility provider for your electricity?

ShavedMonkey wrote:The ego is saying one last "fun" car before the inevitable road to Damascus conversion to EV for the one after



Perfect reason to choose ICE. Until you drag race against a Model S plaid anyway, or even road course one, then it doesn't matter how much fun your ICE powered machine is, it's just another toad compared to a full blown "fun" EV.


I only spend about $300 a year in petrol
The average drive is a 3 hour round trip for shopping
Theres some charge stations at one of the shopping centres and one about 20 minutes away in another town with not many shops
My major expense is still insurance and registration about $1200 a year

Im getting a little less than 10 litres to 100 ks with my Honda
Im looking at a convertible Mercedes which gets a bit over 6 litres per 100 Ks
I like the look of the electric BMWs but I cant afford them

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 29 Dec 2021, 10:27:59

Shaved Monkey wrote:I only spend about $300 a year in petrol


Not bad! Then a doubling or tripling in fuel prices because of peak oil wouldn't impact you very much at all.

ShavedMonkey wrote:My major expense is still insurance and registration about $1200 a year


I'm about the same. Weird how just the ownership of the thing costs more than the operation of it.

Shaved Monkey wrote:I like the look of the electric BMWs but I cant afford them

Image


Whenever I point out all the other EVs becoming available, the wife just gives me that, "what are you...stupid" look, and starts talking about her bosses Model S, and how Model 3 dual motors can be raced at tracks and are cheaper, and they've got a hatchback coming out soon, yada yada yada yada.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 30 Dec 2021, 01:00:29

CNBC just did an analysis of whether its cheaper to drive an EV or an ICE car

electric-vehicles-are-becoming-more-affordable-amid-spiking-gas-prices

Their conclusion? CNBC determined that its just slightly cheaper.....about 2 cents per mile.....to drive an EV.

BUT! They also noted that since it takes hours to recharge an EV, if you take an EV on a long trip you may have to spend hours waiting for your EV to recharge before you can start driving again. Is it worth spending hours waiting to change to save 2 cents a mile?

AND! The CNBC analysis was based on 15 year long time period, during which they assumed the EV would have lower repair and maintainance costs. But EV batteries degrade and need to be replaced after 8-10 years, and it can cost $22,000+ to replace an EV battery, making the cost of the EV MUCH GREATER then then ICE car when this major repair cost is taken into account.

Hopefully, EVs will eventually be cost competitive with ICE vehicles but right now ICE vehicles still hold a large advantage in convenience..

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 30 Dec 2021, 12:53:54

Plantagenet wrote:CNBC just did an analysis of whether its cheaper to drive an EV or an ICE car

electric-vehicles-are-becoming-more-affordable-amid-spiking-gas-prices

Their conclusion? CNBC determined that its just slightly cheaper.....about 2 cents per mile.....to drive an EV.


Too bad I can discuss results better than that, and all you can do is quote others.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 30 Dec 2021, 13:14:43

AdamB wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:CNBC just did an analysis of whether its cheaper to drive an EV or an ICE car

electric-vehicles-are-becoming-more-affordable-amid-spiking-gas-prices

Their conclusion? CNBC determined that its just slightly cheaper.....about 2 cents per mile.....to drive an EV.


Too bad I can discuss results better than that, and all you can do is quote others.


CNBC has a lot of credibility, IMHO.

They've got a lot of smart people who spend all their time doing business reporting.

The recent CNBC report comparing the cost of EVs vs. ICE cars is well documented and comprehensive.....and its consistent with other studies on the same subject.

OF course I place more credence in the CNBC report.....I'm always more interested in facts than in anecdotes or opinion.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 30 Dec 2021, 14:03:34

Plantagenet wrote:
AdamB wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:Their conclusion? CNBC determined that its just slightly cheaper.....about 2 cents per mile.....to drive an EV.


Too bad I can discuss results better than that, and all you can do is quote others.


CNBC has a lot of credibility, IMHO.They've got a lot of smart people who spend all their time doing business reporting.


As opposed to scientists, with empirical data, reporting on said data? Undoubtedly those business reporters all drive EVs and know these things....the same way you know the performance on your EV perhaps?

Plantagenet wrote:The recent CNBC report comparing the cost of EVs vs. ICE cars is well documented and comprehensive.....and its consistent with other studies on the same subject.

OF course I place more credence in the CNBC report.....I'm always more interested in facts than in anecdotes or opinion.
Cheers!


Definitely facts, be they data collected from my EV (what is your mile/kWh result? :lol: ) as well as, you know, not business reporters but real science type work and stuff. Maybe you can find better market reporters on, you know, technical topics next go-round?

If you listen to electric vehicle naysayers, switching to EVs is pointless because even if the cars are vastly more efficient than ones that use internal combustion engines—and they are—that doesn't take into account the amount of carbon required to build and then scrap them. Well, rest easy because it's not true. Today in the US market, a medium-sized battery EV already has 60–68 percent lower lifetime carbon emissions than a comparable car with an internal combustion engine. And the gap is only going to increase as we use more renewable electricity.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby Doly » Sat 01 Jan 2022, 10:10:06

They also noted that since it takes hours to recharge an EV, if you take an EV on a long trip you may have to spend hours waiting for your EV to recharge before you can start driving again. Is it worth spending hours waiting to change to save 2 cents a mile?


I thought the battery for EVs lasts long enough that on long trips you could easily recharge them overnight. Isn't that true?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 01 Jan 2022, 14:00:23

Doly wrote:
They also noted that since it takes hours to recharge an EV, if you take an EV on a long trip you may have to spend hours waiting for your EV to recharge before you can start driving again. Is it worth spending hours waiting to change to save 2 cents a mile?


I thought the battery for EVs lasts long enough that on long trips you could easily recharge them overnight. Isn't that true?


It is for mine, but I don't carry enough battery onboard to make it worthwhile, and no DC input. That was an on purpose, not an accident. Mine won't be road tripping the country unless I do it 60 miles at a time, mine was bought to handle all around town running, and for a year now has been perfect in that role.

The wife's boss has a Tesla S and has already road tripped the country from Pacific to Atlantic, and it doesn't require overnight charging, many Tesla's can get like 80% of a charge at a SuperCharger location good for a couple hundred miles while you have lunch.

Plant can't tell you anything about their experience with an electric, because Plant has none. But Plant sure can tell you about all the reasons they catch fire, emit CO2, and with a thoroughly biased perspective to boot. It must not be Republican enough?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 14 Jan 2022, 00:43:17

AdamB wrote:Plant can't tell you anything about their experience with an electric, because Plant has none.


Adam likes to make things up about other posters, and then post their lies on the internet.

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Adam....are you lying about other posters again? Shame on you!


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