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The coming Civil War Pt. 3

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby jedrider » Sun 04 Apr 2021, 11:49:57

Ibon wrote:I have personally been challenged by my own daughters who are people of color who are sometimes so obssessed with calling out white privilege etc. that at times I have felt like I am walking on pins and needles and thinking before I speak to avoid a volatile reaction if my old baby boomer sensibilities are off base.


You know, being white, I never think the discrimination can affect me. My step-daughter, being Hispanic is happily living in France. I never considered that just maybe she made a really good decision to skip all this racial business and live in a society that purports to be more egalitarian. I do know they have an Algerian problem, but it's nothing like the racial tensions in the USA. The funny thing about it is that she's not a liberal :( (otherwise, she maybe would have remained to join the fight, but that is not her).
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby JuanP » Sun 04 Apr 2021, 11:50:29

Evilgenius, My wife and I received our third stimulus check from the treasury yesterday; hopefully, yours is on its way. Good luck! the gods know we will be paying for these checks with interest, devaluation, and inflation for the rest of our lives.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Sun 04 Apr 2021, 17:23:44

Evil, I was very frustrated with the unemployment office in WA thru the pandemic. My income was less than $500/month the last 12 months with long stretches of zip. I made all the appropriate applications and was denied out of hand, still I filled my weekly form, made several appeals and called numerous times and received a simple, "we're busy, call back later." In 12 months I did not receive so much as an email from a human.

My situation is not typical, I have some cash, no debt, no rent, and have deliberately designed a low overhead lifestyle. Still after 6 months with almost no income I was desperate enough to take early social security. Now I know that SoSec is designed to pay a similar amount whether it is taken early or late but I also know that were I able to postpone until full retirement age or longer my wife would receive a larger monthly check in the event I proceed her to the happy bulletin board in the sky.

Recently almost exactly 12 months after I applied for unemployment I received an email from a person telling me that lo and behold they have reconsidered my application and would be sending a bunch of money forthwith, and if I cared to fill out the weekly reports for the second half of the year (the period after I'd been rejected and had given up) they would consider those too.

Needless to say I limbered my mouse finger and went to work. Soon I received a fat deposit and am qualified to continue on the dole through September, adjusted of course for whatever income I can wrangle.

I am grateful to receive anything being self-employed, although WA apparently covers contractors as well as wage slaves. But the unemployment office in WA was just not capable of handling the gargantuan task handed it. I dare say the politics of unemployment on one side of the political spectrum are diametrically opposed — one side wants to give away money and the other wants to eliminate the entire system. I think what we are seeing generally is the two parties are not simply approaching government differently, they have 2 different ideas of the purpose of government. Defunding the IRS is a goal, just like defunding the postal service, or eliminating ACA or making unemployment benefits as hard as possible to obtain—not that that was the problem for me, I was just at the end of the chain.

Look at IRS funding, then wonder why?

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What is that goal you ask?
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Mon 05 Apr 2021, 07:04:46

Back to abdrd's point about social justice warriors on social media, Atlantic has a good article about Tocqueville's observations on American democracy being formed at the most local level through association and how that is being undermined by the undemocratic, individualistic, internet that profits platforms that create confrontation rather than cooperation.

...many Americans have come to live in a nightmarish inversion of the Tocquevillian dream, a new sort of wilderness. Many modern Americans now seek camaraderie online, in a world defined not by friendship but by anomie and alienation. Instead of participating in civic organizations that give them a sense of community as well as practical experience in tolerance and consensus-building, Americans join internet mobs, in which they are submerged in the logic of the crowd, clicking Like or Share and then moving on. Instead of entering a real-life public square, they drift anonymously into digital spaces where they rarely meet opponents; when they do, it is only to vilify them.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby aadbrd » Mon 05 Apr 2021, 09:20:28

Good article but it comes at it with the assumption that the only threat to the country is from the alt-right. This doesn't surprise me since it's an Atlantic article. So if the utopian ideas, if implemented, softened both sides, fine, but I think there needs to be a humble and frank admission that politics is a two way street of action and reaction. Ratcheting down tensions is more akin to couples counseling than anything else.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 05 Apr 2021, 11:47:01

aadbrd wrote:Good article but it comes at it with the assumption that the only threat to the country is from the alt-right. This doesn't surprise me since it's an Atlantic article. So if the utopian ideas, if implemented, softened both sides, fine, but I think there needs to be a humble and frank admission that politics is a two way street of action and reaction. Ratcheting down tensions is more akin to couples counseling than anything else.


Good point.

A good counseler recognizes it takes two to tango and that this is rarely split 50/50 and then must pay special attention to the more problematic and intractable party.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Tue 06 Apr 2021, 08:02:47

My takeaway was the internet is not a marriage counselor, more a divorce attorney.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby aadbrd » Tue 06 Apr 2021, 11:30:44

Pops wrote:My takeaway was the internet is not a marriage counselor, more a divorce attorney.


More like a professional wrestling promoter or reality-show producer.

The amplification effect of the internet and the lack of filtering is a serious problem even without monied interest looking to monetize off of drama. The fact is that not everyone's thoughts and opinions are worth being given equal weight or exposure and often those who have the least credibility and add the least to any serious discussion (other than preaching to the converted) wind up driving online debates. I think that's why the intelligentsia back in the day were limited to secret societies with special passwords and graduated initiations rather than just letting everyone in. It wasn't that these people were conspiring to rule the world ala the illuminati. It was because this filtered for people who actually had the smarts and the discipline to work over big problems and allowed them to work without outside distraction. This is why Twitter is the lowest of the low because it's basically just amplifying everyone's brain-farts.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 06 Apr 2021, 11:42:37

aadbrd wrote:The amplification effect of the internet and the lack of filtering is a serious problem even without monied interest looking to monetize off of drama. .


The lack of vetting and peer review and filtering for quality that we used to have when the conduits of information where limited has been lost with the internet and the shit has been allowed to rise to the same level as quality vetted information.

The democratization of information provided by the internet, even without the monied interest as you mentioned, has not fulfilled the utopian promise. In fact, with the hierarchy of quality information removed we are becoming more stupid and cannot discern fact from fiction.

Not evertying egalitarian strengthens society, not everything hierarchical is just corruption from the elites.

I predict that sometime not to far in the future a heirarchy of information will have to be restored, the priesthood of science revalidated.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 06 Apr 2021, 12:20:44

Ibon wrote:I predict that sometime not to far in the future a heirarchy of information will have to be restored, the priesthood of science revalidated.


There is no "priesthood of science." Scientists are just as subject to fads and politics as any other part of US society.

Yes, the scientific method itself is one of humankind's greatest inventions, and provides perhaps the only way to determine what is "true", although its best when its applied to the natural world.

But even those trained in the scientific method can fall into cliques and be distracted by politics. Just look at the "scientific approach" to dealing with the covid virus for an example. Medical professionals have taken positions ranging from "do nothing and we'll reach herd immunity" (as in Sweden) to the scientific genius of the new covid vaccines, developed here in the US with billions provided by Trump.

Science doesn't speak with a single voice and doesn't inevitably lead to a single answer to the complicated questions facing society today......

I'm afraid society will just have to muddle along, just like we've always done.

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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 06 Apr 2021, 12:49:48

Plantagenet wrote:

Yes, the scientific method itself is one of humankind's greatest inventions, and provides perhaps the only way to determine what is "true", although its best when its applied to the natural world.

!


Yes science has been full of bias and turf wars and there reams of books written about this. Just read about the history of plate tectonics as one of many examples. But it is a far better arbiter of facts than the egalitarian nature of information that goes unfiltered on the internet.

It is not the internet but the general lack of education of the users that requires that we restore a hierarchy of information IMHO

With no filters the vetting process of information is passed on to the uninformed. That is dangerously stupid.

Yes I am a bit of an elitist and do not embrace egalitarianism in the hands of the ignorant.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby aadbrd » Tue 06 Apr 2021, 13:46:31

Plantagenet wrote:Just look at the "scientific approach" to dealing with the covid virus for an example.


There hasn't been nearly as much scientific dissent in how to handle COVID as you're suggesting. The presence of crackpots like Dr. Atlas doesn't mean the do-nothing crowd had anything near equal weight to interventionists.

But I don't think we're suggesting that all the smartest people in the room will always agree and produce a singular best strategy, but that they will go about arguing their points in a mature way rather than Trump's "small-hands" approach to rhetoric.

You can go back to the founding fathers and the Federalist papers or further back to the debates between Peter and Paul on how to proceed with early Christianity. History is full of some good models for how to argue in a substantive way, yes, even if it ends with irreconcilable differences. It's a skill that has been lost in the 21st century. One need only be a regular reader of this forum to show as much. Tucker Carlson style chain-yanking "you mad, bro?" rhetoric, is now the norm.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 06 Apr 2021, 15:53:03

Plantagenet wrote:But even those trained in the scientific method can fall into cliques and be distracted by politics. Just look at the "scientific approach" to dealing with the covid virus for an example.


Or peak oil.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 06 Apr 2021, 16:57:16

aadbrd wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:Just look at the "scientific approach" to dealing with the covid virus for an example.


There hasn't been nearly as much scientific dissent in how to handle COVID as you're suggesting.


I cited a very specific example of a difference in scientific opinion between the medical authorities in Sweden and most of the rest of the world.

Its ridiculous for you to pretend that this didn't occur.

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The Swedes followed a plan proposed by medical leaders in Sweden to reach herd immunity quickly by not locking down. This medical approach is now universally judged to be a failure

aadbrd wrote: Trump's "small-hands"


Your curious concern over Trump's hand size is something it would be best to keep to yourself.

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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 06 Apr 2021, 18:11:11

It was refreshing hearing folks talk about civilized debate.

I was just reading a thread in another forum that was distinctly NOT of the model proposed above. It was refreshing to come here and see the much more enlightened and civil debate.

Let us all attempt to keep that high standard.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 07 Apr 2021, 12:41:53

Has the pendulum swung a bit more toward unity?

Just checking in on this premise??
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby jedrider » Wed 07 Apr 2021, 18:09:51

Trump and the GOP have thrown evangelical Christianity into a full-blown crisis
https://www.alternet.org/2021/04/trump-evangelicals/

Good! About time they wake up and smell the coffee.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 08 Apr 2021, 08:37:20

jedrider wrote:Trump and the GOP have thrown evangelical Christianity into a full-blown crisis
https://www.alternet.org/2021/04/trump-evangelicals/

Good! About time they wake up and smell the coffee.


Trump has been good for exposing the hypocrisy in Evangelical American Christianity. There are two possible outcomes, both of which I see as positive developments

1) The church does some soul searching and comes out of it abandoning politics and getting back to ministering to the poor and serving the disenfranchised.

2) The church adheres to the Trump doctrine of divisiveness , racism, misogyny etc. and we continue to see a decline in followers especially in urban and suburban areas until the only christians left in America will be rural white racists.

Option 1 can allow for a future with service. Option 2 will relegate Evangelical christianity to a minority sealed and contained inside their xenophobia.

Option 1 means the church continues to have a role to play in society. Option 2 as well and that will be to keep the a segment of the socially dysfunctional a place to go on sundays to continue to vent their grievances while a younger generation perhaps can get the church back to option 1.

Either case is a better outcome than what we have today.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Thu 08 Apr 2021, 10:35:53

I think it is interesting that science and religion appear in this conversation about civil war.

The thing about science is it seeks to understand and so welcomes new evidence, theoretically at least. i.e., masks don't help with CoVid — oh wait, yes they do! — the change wasn't because scientists were lying or stupid or libtards, it was mostly because most viruses aren't transmissible before symptoms appear and they didn't know CoVid was so they wanted to preserve what supplies there were. Once it became clear lots of transmission was by pre-symptomatic cases they changed recommendations.

On the other hand, religion seeks to BE the truth: evidence has no standing, only faith. So the Pope, every preacher ever, every self-appointed prophet and TV evangelist, your neighbor, your spouse, basically every human ever, all get to decide what is their own truth — about CoVid, Masks, vaccines, whatever.

I think lots of people don't mind uncertainty, it doesn't make me feel bad that Fouchi was against public masks before he was for them. Likewise it doesn't make me feel bad that I don't know the entire story of creation, the afterlife, etc. Because, as knowledge and access to it has grown, the ability for the average person to find evidence based answers to many questions about the universe simply leaves less room for faith based, tithed based, magic-based fairy-tales. Many people now are more educated than the clergy— who not long ago had a corner on literacy and have always had the corner on certainty.

.....
Having said all that, none of it has much to do with "evangelicals" in the US. The Southern Baptist church, the largest protestant group in the country, is so named for a reason:
Report on Slavery and Racism in the History of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
The founding faculty of this school—all four of them—were deeply involved in slavery and deeply
complicit in the defense of slavery. Many of their successors on this faculty [the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary], throughout the period of Reconstruction and well into the twentieth century, advocated segregation, the inferiority of African-Americans, and openly embraced the ideology of the Lost Cause of southern slavery.


This report isn't ancient history, it was 2017.

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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 3

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 08 Apr 2021, 11:00:46

Pops wrote:
.....
Having said all that, none of it has much to do with "evangelicals" in the US. The Southern Baptist church, the largest protestant group in the country, is so named for a reason:
Report on Slavery and Racism in the History of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
The founding faculty of this school—all four of them—were deeply involved in slavery and deeply
complicit in the defense of slavery. Many of their successors on this faculty [the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary], throughout the period of Reconstruction and well into the twentieth century, advocated segregation, the inferiority of African-Americans, and openly embraced the ideology of the Lost Cause of southern slavery.


This report isn't ancient history, it was 2017.

.


More important than christian virtue and morals is the plain fact that Trump validated the founding faculty of this school of southern baptists. That is why he could grab a thousand pussies and they would still adore him. Trump exposed and made overt that which was only ever covered with a veneer of hypocrisy anyway. It was nice to see how easily white southern baptists allowed themselves to be so exposed. Trump fucked them over real good.

Funny how everyone who allied themselves with Trump got fucked over in the end. Just like those suppliers of his casino in Atlantic City that never got paid.
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