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the Doomer outlook

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 08 Jan 2021, 08:43:26

Pops wrote:

Not that I yearn for a difficult life, but I fear we don't know what to do with ourselves already and will have less idea as more of us become redundant, Idle Hands and all that.

My folks were dirt poor at points in their lives but would literally give a stranger their last dollar. They likely had many old time attitudes about morality, race, public displays, etc but I can't tell you what they were, I never heard them talk trash about any social, political, racial group. Today I see inlaws regularly disavow each other over a meme whose subject neither have any actual experience with and is never going to touch their real life.

I'd like to think there is a place where we all wake up to appreciate the opulence of our built world, the rights of our brothers and sisters, and work to preserve the remains of the natural world...

but I'm a doomer


There is an awful lot there that I resonate with.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby diemos » Fri 08 Jan 2021, 12:40:32

We live in a representative democracy and the white religious working class has had no one to represent them for the past 40 years.

The democrats have committed themselves to championing the rights of every ethnicity and preference ... except for white working class christians.

The republicans (owned by the business class) got people to turn out to the polls by promising to stop all the social changes ... and then failing to deliver and turning around and shipping their jobs to china and importing illegals to replace them who could be employed for cheap and with no rights.

So we were in a perfect place for a demagogue to arise. That voting block had come to the conclusion that the "elites" weren't working in their interests. Which is true. And trump, the reality star / con-man, who was just running as a publicity stunt, was free to tell them whatever they wanted to hear and he told them he was going to fix all their problems. They ate it up, and voila! MAGA and the Trump presidency.

Unfortunately, he's an incompetent con-man who's only management skill is identifying, blaming and firing a subordinate for every one of his failures. So he was not able to deliver anything except a trillion dollar tax cut for the rich and has had to cover his incompetence with a story about how he was being sabotaged at every turn by the ever nefarious and unspecified "them".

I had hoped for the rise of a party that would actually represent the interests of this voting group but they don't seem to be able to figure out what's going on and would rather wallow in conspiracy theories about lizard people, 5G, etc, etc, ... in sum, Qanon. Wallowing in undirected anger as the prosperity and cultural uniformity of the US of the 1950's slowly disappears in the rear view mirror.

A process being driven by resource depletion and rising world populations and ... voila! ... we're back on topic.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby aadbrd » Fri 08 Jan 2021, 12:53:22

diemos wrote:white religious working class has had no one to represent them for the past 40 years.


Sure they have. They bought into the idea of trickle-down economics hook line and sinker, sweetened further by demonizing the left over culture-issues like roe-v-wade and politicizing what should be non-political existential threats like climate change and now COVID.

Only when the right acknowledges that worshipping at the altar of unfettered capitalism only makes the rich richer and the poor poorer will things change. But since the right these days tend to be "low information" voters, they are easily suckered. They have also been thoroughly taught to hold the intelligentsia with suspicion, and have fragile egos, hence there's no mechanism to tell them they've been wrong all this time. Doubling down is really all they can do. The denial and mental gymnastics required means they are living in an ever increasing state of delusion from reality.

So you have QAnon type thinking which is sort of their cargo-cult.

The way Trump was anointed as a quasi-religious icon despite how little he lives up to any notion of old-school virtue is symptomatic of how much of a spiritual void exists there. The religiosity is now merely a superficial front on the right's own brand of identity politics.

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Godwin's law aside, it seems almost inevitable that groups with a shattered sense of self inevitably support dictators like Hitler who offer them some sort of feel-good message and convenient scapegoats upon which to work out their frustrations. Only after the world burns to the ground do they wake up from the delusion and realize they made a mistake.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby diemos » Fri 08 Jan 2021, 13:04:15

aadbrd wrote:Only when the right acknowledges that worshipping at the altar of unfettered capitalism only makes the rich richer and the poor poorer will things change. But since the right these days tend to be "low information" voters, they are easily suckered.


What is truly awe inspiring is how well they have been indoctrinated to view anything that benefits them at the expense of the ruling class is ... boo, hiss ... evil socialism.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby Pops » Fri 08 Jan 2021, 14:04:20

diemos wrote:
aadbrd wrote:Only when the right acknowledges that worshipping at the altar of unfettered capitalism only makes the rich richer and the poor poorer will things change. But since the right these days tend to be "low information" voters, they are easily suckered.


What is truly awe inspiring is how well they have been indoctrinated to view anything that benefits them at the expense of the ruling class is ... boo, hiss ... evil socialism.

Youse guys are talking my language.
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The "Last Place Aversion" Paradox
The surprising psychology of the Occupy Wall Street protests

By Ilyana Kuziemko, Michael I. Norton on October 12, 2011
If ever Americans were up for a bit of class warfare, now would seem to be the time. The current financial downturn has led to a $700 billion tax-payer-financed bank bailout and an unemployment rate stuck stubbornly above nine percent. Onto this scene has stepped the Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement, which seeks to bring together a disparate group of protesters united in their belief that the current income distribution is unfair. “The one thing we all have in common is that We are the 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%,” says their website. In an era of bank bailouts and rising poverty – and where recent data show that the top 1 percent control as much as 35 percent of the total wealth in America – it would appear that the timing of this movement to reconsider the allocation of wealth could not be more perfect.

Or, maybe not.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 08 Jan 2021, 16:37:13

Pops wrote:
The "Last Place Aversion" Paradox
The surprising psychology of the Occupy Wall Street protests


This was a wonderfully thought inducing article.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby REAL Green » Sat 09 Jan 2021, 19:26:10

Wikileaks just dumped all of their files online. Everything from Hillary Clinton's emails, McCain's being guilty, Vegas shooting done by an FBI sniper, Steve Jobs HIV letter, PedoPodesta, Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, Bilderberg, CIA agents arrested for rape, WHO pandemic. Happy Digging! Here you go, please read and pass it on..... https://file.wikileaks.org/file/...

These are Clinton’s emails: https://file.wikileaks.org/file/clinton-emails/

Index file! https://file.wikileaks.org/file/?fbclid ... bM46oHXWMI
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby aadbrd » Sat 09 Jan 2021, 22:55:47

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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby suxs » Sun 10 Jan 2021, 11:33:39

In regard to the supposed Wikileaks dump, save yourselves the time and effort. In briefest terms, it's a case of the same old just a different day.

With thanks to the link provided by the previous poster, aadbrd, this:

"Fact Check: Did Wikileaks really ‘dump all their files online’ as being claimed on social media? The leaked files are claimed to contain explosive revelations about Steve Jobs, 'PedoPodesta' (likely refers to close Clinton aide John Podesta), Afghanistan, Syria and other fiery issues. However, the files contained in the leak are nothing new and there has been no such leak as of now.

The leaked files are claimed to contain explosive revelations about Steve Jobs, ‘PedoPodesta’ (likely refers to close Clinton aide John Podesta), Afghanistan, Syria and other fiery issues. However, the files contained in the leak are nothing new and there has been no such leak as of now.

A quick search on Twitter revealed that the same claims with the exact same language has surfaced again and again on social media during the course of this year in various months.

Thus, we have tweets with the same text being circulated in April, June, November and now December. Additionally, there has been no confirmation from Wikileaks recently that they have dumped any files online."
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby diemos » Sun 10 Jan 2021, 12:24:29

Oh no!

You mean people on social media are free to just ...

make ... shit ... up?


Inconceivable!
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby careinke » Sun 10 Jan 2021, 18:58:33

diemos wrote:Oh no!

You mean people on social media are free to just ...

make ... shit ... up?


Inconceivable!


+1 LOL
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 18 Jan 2021, 08:15:44

This referenced article mentions God and righteous spiritual beliefs but really you can just insert higher power. Those who see reason as the higher power and believe any means can be used to advance the worship of reason often fall into the trap of arrogance of egocentrism found in the worship of reason. Communism is a stalwart example of the intelligentsia finding communism as the means of controlling the world in a rational way once this ideology of reason moves to the political spectrum. What instead happens is the impulse to power corrupts even the worship of reason so eventually the irrational and dysfunction of both the USSR and Mao’s Chinese cultural revolution results. That is where the US is heading.

The US is here now in a great political battle of the soul of the nation. Communism/Fascism like activity has already occurred over the past years since Bush, Clinton, and Obama took office. This is especially true of Obama with his focus on race. Bush allowed a fascism creep with the patriot act post 911. 911 was a crisis capitalized on or was it a gain of function developed and advanced for political power. Clintons introduced the lust of the power impulse. These impulses are now embedded in the technocratic state of the unelected. The revolving door of lobbyist and the politician but also the judiciary. Wallstreet is onboard as is the FED. The military is bought off too with the military industrial complex. These ideas and systems are now embedded in critical palaces in government. The academia of universities has been infiltrated by this ideology for decades and now we have Woke, cancel, and safetyism. Safetyism is a unipolar intellectual position completely add odds with a representative democracy.

The inclusion of fascism with the comingling of large corporations with the will of the state but also the state in the will of the corporations. Monopolies for ideology is the quid pro quo. Mainstream Media is almost entirely on board with the propaganda aspect of the communism and fascism. This has been done with the consolidation of media empires. The web of free speech is endangered species. Keep in mind this modern comingling of fascism and communism are not at odds like they were in WWII. There they were nationalist ideologies. Now they are the Globalist hidden agenda to world domination. This is clearly expressed in the WEF discussions. The Davos crowd is behind WEF. We also see it in the CCP with the doctrine of social harmony of the Chinese state.

This combining of communism with its idealism of the progressivism and fascism with its alliance of totalitarianism of large corporations and government creates a powerful force of monopolies with the moral hazard of the “means justify the ends” of political policy. This is especially effective in the US because the reach of social and entertainment media which were once free spirited. The moral hazard is the slow degrading of the rule of law and generally accepted principals of free markets and the fairness of the market place. It also includes he moral relativism we see today with the social narrative of Woke. This is the corporate world of Walmart and Amazon against main street and small business. These places cannot be controlled so they will be muscled out by both business and the state.

This is essentially the end of the West as we know it and now a movement towards the control socialism of the Chinese model. The Chinese are moving in this same direction also but from the other side of the spectrum with the mingling of large corporations into the totalitarianism of its one-party state. China is actually going further with the rule of a strongman “chairman” of the state with Xi.

What is driving this great political turning is the realization from the elites that the world is in a desperate situation with climate change and the overshoot of population and consumption. The people now have to be controlled with technology and ideology so they can be programed to accept harsh responses to what is ahead. This is why so much George Orwell 1984 is discussed lately. That may sound good to environmentalist and social scientist except for the inevitable corruption of egocentrism of reason. These utopias of reason never work becuase they are out of scale with true human behavior of the tribe and the family. Power corrupts and total power corrupts absolutely. Once reason is corrupted anything goes as we saw in the French Revolution.

“Looking Through An Adversary's Eyes: A KGB Agent's Prophecy”
https://www.theepochtimes.com/looking-t ... 59634.html

“Why are Intellectuals So Prone to Communism? Intellectuals tend to be fooled by radical ideologies. This phenomenon has drawn the attention of scholars. British historian Paul Johnson found that radical intellectuals share the fatal weaknesses of arrogance and egocentrism…Rapid scientific progress since the 18th century greatly strengthened humankind’s confidence in its own ability and fueled the intellectual trend of progressivism. People started to worship humanist reason instead of God. Reason is believed to be able to lead people to the path of happiness and morality. People want to create a utopia, a “paradise on earth,” which is the essential idea of communism. As the “pastors” of modern science, intellectuals believe that they are the interpreter of the truth, and their cause is so important that no means are off-limits to serve their ends. This has caused a deluge of blood and misery. Founding Father John Adams said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” Interestingly enough, a ruthless communist dictator, Joseph Stalin, echoed his point from another angle, “America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within.” It is time for us to be humble again, look inward, and follow the true wisdom of righteous spiritual beliefs. This is our only solution.”
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby aadbrd » Mon 18 Jan 2021, 10:38:22

REAL Green wrote:This is essentially the end of the West as we know it and now a movement towards the control socialism of the Chinese model.


I don't understand why you make this conclusion. What I see is a tug-of-war between left and right as the center disappears. Attempts to lead from the center will please none. Indeed, nobody is even able to acknowledge politicians who inhabit the center (as Obama and now Biden does).

REAL Green wrote:the realization from the elites that the world is in a desperate situation with climate change and the overshoot of population and consumption.


I see no evidence of this, certainly not from the right, and the left think we can technofix and regulate our way out of it.

REAL Green wrote:The people now have to be controlled with technology and ideology so they can be programed to accept harsh responses to what is ahead.


This sounds like little more than warmed over Alex Jones.

REAL Green wrote:This is why so much George Orwell 1984 is discussed lately.


The reason why 1984 is cited so much is that it is being used as a reflexive propaganda tool. In other words, you try to accuse the other side of propaganda when said accusation itself is the propaganda. Trump's term "fake news" is exhibit A.

REAL Green wrote:“Why are Intellectuals So Prone to Communism?


That doesn't seem very topical since we're currently suffering from creeping fascism powered by anti-intellectuals.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby OutcastPhilosopher » Mon 18 Jan 2021, 11:15:06

aadbrd wrote:
REAL Green wrote:This is essentially the end of the West as we know it and now a movement towards the control socialism of the Chinese model.


I don't understand why you make this conclusion. What I see is a tug-of-war between left and right as the center disappears. Attempts to lead from the center will please none. Indeed, nobody is even able to acknowledge politicians who inhabit the center (as Obama and now Biden does).

REAL Green wrote:the realization from the elites that the world is in a desperate situation with climate change and the overshoot of population and consumption.


I see no evidence of this, certainly not from the right, and the left think we can technofix and regulate our way out of it.

REAL Green wrote:The people now have to be controlled with technology and ideology so they can be programed to accept harsh responses to what is ahead.


This sounds like little more than warmed over Alex Jones.

REAL Green wrote:This is why so much George Orwell 1984 is discussed lately.


The reason why 1984 is cited so much is that it is being used as a reflexive propaganda tool. In other words, you try to accuse the other side of propaganda when said accusation itself is the propaganda. Trump's term "fake news" is exhibit A.

REAL Green wrote:“Why are Intellectuals So Prone to Communism?


That doesn't seem very topical since we're currently suffering from creeping fascism powered by anti-intellectuals.



So is having a Central Bank Fascist or Communist?

That would be a good question to answer since the USA has had one since 1913.

How about the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. alphabet soup? Are these the signs of a Fascist or Communist State?

Regardless, I think the claim can be made that the USA is a Centrally Planned Monopoly State.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 18 Jan 2021, 11:36:58

aadbrd wrote:
REAL Green wrote:This is essentially the end of the West as we know it and now a movement towards the control socialism of the Chinese model.


I don't understand why you make this conclusion. What I see is a tug-of-war between left and right as the center disappears. Attempts to lead from the center will please none. Indeed, nobody is even able to acknowledge politicians who inhabit the center (as Obama and now Biden does).

REAL Green wrote:the realization from the elites that the world is in a desperate situation with climate change and the overshoot of population and consumption.


I see no evidence of this, certainly not from the right, and the left think we can technofix and regulate our way out of it.

REAL Green wrote:The people now have to be controlled with technology and ideology so they can be programed to accept harsh responses to what is ahead.


This sounds like little more than warmed over Alex Jones.

REAL Green wrote:This is why so much George Orwell 1984 is discussed lately.


The reason why 1984 is cited so much is that it is being used as a reflexive propaganda tool. In other words, you try to accuse the other side of propaganda when said accusation itself is the propaganda. Trump's term "fake news" is exhibit A.

REAL Green wrote:“Why are Intellectuals So Prone to Communism?


That doesn't seem very topical since we're currently suffering from creeping fascism powered by anti-intellectuals.


This certainly seems to be quite a reasonable response when compared to the shrill shrieks of the Doomer lot. I found quite a few of your points quite reasonable, particularly the last 4 in your response.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 18 Jan 2021, 11:41:46

OutcastPhilosopher wrote:So is having a Central Bank Fascist or Communist?


Neither.

OutcastPhilosopher wrote:How about the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. alphabet soup? Are these the signs of a Fascist or Communist State?


Neither.

OutcastPhilosopher wrote:Regardless, I think the claim can be made that the USA is a Centrally Planned Monopoly State.


Proving that the answers to the questions you posed are meangingless, and you don't have an idea what a centrally planned monopoly state is. Call upstairs to your mother and for the love of pete have her get you some reading material that when you simply regurgitate it on-line doesn't make you look like an Alex Jones pimping fool.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 18 Jan 2021, 14:10:34

aadbrd wrote:
REAL Green wrote:This is essentially the end of the West as we know it and now a movement towards the control socialism of the Chinese model.


I don't understand why you make this conclusion. What I see is a tug-of-war between left and right as the center disappears. Attempts to lead from the center will please none. Indeed, nobody is even able to acknowledge politicians who inhabit the center (as Obama and now Biden does).


The tug of war will continue but if you pull back the lens I do agree with Realgreen. This comes from a macro view.

The 20th century of abundant resources was the American Century and the ethos that captured the world of strong individualism and personal liberty that was enabled by the wide open spaces in terms of opportunity, abundant energy, economic growth, abundant resources and limited competition.

The 21st century in a constrained over crowded world definitely favors collectivism and strong central governments to manage populations who will experience disruptions to the status quo. We can already see this unfolding in the first two decades of the 21st century. It will only continue to be more the case. This will be China's century.

This is one of the reasons, unlike many of my baby boomer generation, that I join the emerging generation in a call for greater collectivism in managing societies problems.

The ethos of personal liberty and personal freedom when the space to maneuver is only constraining is no longer adaptive.

This assessment has nothing to do with the old cold war dichotomy of capitalism vs socialism. That was no contest. The west won.

21st century collectivism is sourced not from this old ideological struggle but rather from pragmatic adaptation to external forces, over population, climate change, resource depletion, greater competition, etc. etc.

Remember Asimov's parable of democracy and the bathroom; 2 people share an apartment with one bathroom. The use of the bathroom in this case does not require top down rules. There is maximum liberty and personsl freedom in the use of the bathroom. When 20 people have to share 1 bathroom individual freedom and personal liberty means chaos. Democracy suffers. Only a more rigid central government planning can find the best efficient way to get all 20 folks to shit and piss in peace.

Put a spin on that and ask yourself, would you rather share a bathroom with 20 Trump supporters or 20 Chinese... THat for me is a no brainer!
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby aadbrd » Mon 18 Jan 2021, 16:04:03

Ibon wrote:The 21st century in a constrained over crowded world definitely favors collectivism


You could also say that this aspect inevitably results in failed states that revert back to a more regional or even feudal way of life. As such I think it's likely that the US splits into two or more sub-groups that are more uniform and hence stable ideologically.

Ibon wrote:This is one of the reasons, unlike many of my baby boomer generation, that I join the emerging generation in a call for greater collectivism in managing societies problems.


And if implemented this will comprise the blue state portion of US-red and US-blue.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby Pops » Mon 18 Jan 2021, 16:14:22

When I was a kid Reagan predicted the end of freedom by the following Tuesday if a certain heinous commie plot was enacted.

Today, 60 years later Medicare is second only to that most commie plot, social security.

And yet we're still free.


Carnage. Rapists. Commies. BLM
Whatever will the next cycle bring to skeer the white-folks?
I'd think they'd be worn down by now.
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Re: the Doomer outlook

Unread postby diemos » Mon 18 Jan 2021, 18:23:54

Pops wrote:Today, 60 years later Medicare is second only to that most commie plot, social security.

And yet we're still free.


What's truly hilarious is that they're weeping and wailing that Biden is going to kill social security when it's the republicans that have openly been trying to do that for 40 years.

I worked with an Army officer for a while who's favorite expletive was to refer to things as, "communist". He noticed that his bubble gum wrapper had an ad printed on it and referred to that as "communist". I had to pipe up and say, "Hmmm... I'm pretty sure that selling ad space on bubble gum wrappers is capitalist. Now if they were printing exhortations to the proletariat to increase tractor production during the next five year plan ... that might be communist."

That's when I realized that for him that word didn't refer to a particular economic system, it was just a euphemism for, "anything I don't like."
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