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High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Newfie » Tue 01 Dec 2020, 14:22:36

Here is an interesting quora qa session in ghis topic.

Some good photos down a bit.


https://www.quora.com/How-are-high-spee ... ain-tracks
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Plantagenet » Tue 01 Dec 2020, 22:46:49

Outcast_Searcher wrote:When BEV's get to be, say, 30% of the light vehicle network, be SURE and get back to us with CREDIBLE citations, supporting your claims.


?????

The point I am making has nothing to do with the percentage of BEVs on the road.

I am pointing out that the argument that trains require infrastructure is true of every other kind of transport system as well. Air transport requires airports, flight controllers, etc. Boats require harbors and federal maintaintaince and dredging of shipping rivers and shipping routes. And EVs and ICE vehicles require huge amounts of infrastructure spending on roads and road maintainance.

The fact that trains are much more energy efficient then cars or planes or boats is precisely why we should be building out modern train networks instead of depending on private cars and trucks and airplanes. Trains are MORE ENERGY EFFICIENT. The more we use trains to replace trips in cars or planes, the more ENERGY EFFICIENT our whole society will become.

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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Newfie » Tue 01 Dec 2020, 23:23:09

Plant,

I get your argument.

However, try this first...the less shit we use, we buy and throw away, the smaller houses are all directly increasing efficiency without building anything.

Reduce
Reuse
Recycle

Ince we have done that we may find we already have more infrastructure than we need.
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Simon_R » Wed 02 Dec 2020, 04:12:05

Hi Newfie et al

Whilst I agree that a mass transit system is a wonderful aim, I think you need to start smaller

if the USA and CAN had a joined up transport plan, so, for example, if there is a Rail Link between two cities then the cost of flying should be taxed to be prohibitive, and use this to pay for the rail for passengers (same for buses)

Local buses could be free (they are in our area)

Freight .... well here is a study I found from the USA

http://archive.gao.gov/f0302/109884.pdf

showing that trucks cause 9600 times more damage to roads, than cars, so if we are talking cost of infrastructure, lets tax them appropriately to get a level playing field ..... or just build a set of RoRo train lines and ban trucks on the section of road that these serve, this would force trunk freight on the rails and only local freight would be left, each city would have a 'Port' our local city already has one built out and waiting for the inevitable.

As for the mindset, thats a generational thing and will change.

Thanks

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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby vtsnowedin » Wed 02 Dec 2020, 07:56:40

Rather then spending billions to build a few high speed passenger links with doubtful profitability we should upgrade and improve the existing freight rail system to keep as much as the heavy freight off the highways which would surly return a profit. Also considering the reduction in coal being shipped to power plants total ton miles may actually reduce and as an alternate we should upgrade the electric grid to allow intermittent solar and wind power to be to be efficiently transmitted to where it is needed as that is the replacement for some of that coal. And assuming the Biden administration realizes they do indeed need fracked natural gas to replace the lions share of that coal reduction we should expand and upgrade the gas pipeline system. Even if Biden acts to reduce fracking the old city and suburban gas delivery network of pipes need to be systematically replaced to eliminate the millions of leaks we now have in the often hundred year old gas mains.
When we get all that done I would then turn back to the question of building high speed rail. :)
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Newfie » Wed 02 Dec 2020, 09:15:15

VT,

All really hood points.
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby mousepad » Wed 02 Dec 2020, 10:17:51

vtsnowedin wrote:upgrade and improve the existing freight rail system


The US freight rail ain't that bad as our european friends would like us to believe.
US rails ships MUCH more freight tkm or t/person than europe.
No doubt a lot of this is probably coal to power plants which europe doesn't do that much, but still.
And anybody ever visiting poster child of greatness germany knows the german freeways are choke full of heavy trucks, no different than the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... rail_usage
https://www.masterresource.org/railroad ... in%20Japan.
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby vtsnowedin » Wed 02 Dec 2020, 11:06:07

mousepad wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:upgrade and improve the existing freight rail system


The US freight rail ain't that bad as our european friends would like us to believe.
US rails ships MUCH more freight tkm or t/person than europe.
No doubt a lot of this is probably coal to power plants which europe doesn't do that much, but still.
And anybody ever visiting poster child of greatness germany knows the german freeways are choke full of heavy trucks, no different than the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... rail_usage
https://www.masterresource.org/railroad ... in%20Japan.

System utilization does not correlate exactly with the quality of the infrastructure. There is continuing wear and tear on tracks (even steel rails wear, especially in the curves) and many of the bridges are over 100 years old and need upgrades or complete replacements. I'm not advocating a crash program to rebuild the system just upping the level of replacements and repairs to a level that is well above the rate of rust. All done on a cost /benefit basis that makes long term economic sense.
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Plantagenet » Wed 02 Dec 2020, 12:03:40

Simon_R wrote: the cost of flying should be taxed to be prohibitive, and use this to pay for the rail for passengers

Thanks

Simon


The problem isn’t planes or cars.......the problem is the CARBON emitted by planes and cars.

Put a tax on CARBON and we will reduce carbon emissions by switching to carbon free EVs and trams and trains. Even planes will evolve to emit less carbon
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 05 Dec 2020, 13:54:19

Plantagenet wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:When BEV's get to be, say, 30% of the light vehicle network, be SURE and get back to us with CREDIBLE citations, supporting your claims.


?????

The point I am making has nothing to do with the percentage of BEVs on the road.

When looking at the overall energy network, and the higher efficiency of BEV's cmpared to ICE's, which will save more energy as a higher percentage of the fleet is BEV's, sure, let's pretend that THE OVERALL ENERGY BUDGET has NOTHING to do with the percentage of BEV's on the road. :roll: :lol:

Here's YOUR quote, BTW, which I was responding to.

Plantagenet wrote:AND people who push for EVs never mention the overall energy budget involved in building the entire freeway system and road paved road systems.

Hard as it might be to grasp, the energy budget of a transport network over its useful life includes the energy expended by the vehicles that use it. :idea:

We realize you don't like BEV's, re your various past false claims the batteries cause cancer, re the gross exaggeration of how many fires they cause (as if ICE's don't have a tremendous amount of fires), etc.

That doesn't mean logic shoudn't apply to the discussion of EV's, including BEV's.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Plantagenet » Sat 05 Dec 2020, 15:07:51

Outcast_Searcher wrote:We realize you don't like BEV's


Thats not true. I like EVs and I've ordered a BEV myself. Please try to comprehend what you are reading instead of making things up.....for instance, lets see if you can understand the following sentences:

I LIKE BEVs. I like all kinds of EVs, excluding cars like the Hyundai Kona that have been recalled due to battery fires.

I like electric trains and electric trams.

Electric is good.

Do you get it now?

Outcast_Searcher wrote: re your various past false claims the batteries cause cancer


Thats not true. I've never said batteries cause cancer. Where do you get these crazy ideas?

Outcast_Searcher wrote:the gross exaggeration of how many fires they cause (as if ICE's don't have a tremendous amount of fires), etc.


Thats not true. I've never exaggerated the number of BEV fires.

Lets calm down and look at the facts here. There actually are spontaneous BEV fires, you know. Thats reality. There is concern over BEV fires. Thats reality. NHTSA is investigating EV battery fires and at least two major BEV manufacturers have ordered recalls of tens of thousands of cars over the BEV issue. Again....its reality.

----------

Are you having a bad day? Thats three false attacks in one post.....normally at least one of your attacks is truthful but three false claims in one post is some kind of record for you.

If something is bugging you, I hope it clears up soon.

HAVE A GREAT DAY.

Cheers!
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 07 Dec 2020, 01:21:51

Plantagenet wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:We realize you don't like BEV's


Thats not true. I like EVs and I've ordered a BEV myself. Please try to comprehend what you are reading instead of making things up.....for instance, lets see if you can understand the following sentences:

I LIKE BEVs. I like all kinds of EVs, excluding cars like the Hyundai Kona that have been recalled due to battery fires.

I like electric trains and electric trams.

Electric is good.

Do you get it now?

Outcast_Searcher wrote: re your various past false claims the batteries cause cancer


Thats not true. I've never said batteries cause cancer. Where do you get these crazy ideas?

Outcast_Searcher wrote:the gross exaggeration of how many fires they cause (as if ICE's don't have a tremendous amount of fires), etc.


Thats not true. I've never exaggerated the number of BEV fires.

Lets calm down and look at the facts here. There actually are spontaneous BEV fires, you know. Thats reality. There is concern over BEV fires. Thats reality. NHTSA is investigating EV battery fires and at least two major BEV manufacturers have ordered recalls of tens of thousands of cars over the BEV issue. Again....its reality.

----------

Are you having a bad day? Thats three false attacks in one post.....normally at least one of your attacks is truthful but three false claims in one post is some kind of record for you.

If something is bugging you, I hope it clears up soon.

HAVE A GREAT DAY.

Cheers!

You can lie to yourself all you want. I'm tired of it. Welcome to my ignore list. Your signal to noise ratio is just no longer high enough to be worth reading your posts, especially when you like like Trump more and more often.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Plantagenet » Tue 08 Dec 2020, 17:42:28

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Welcome to my ignore list.


Thank goodness. It was no fun for me either....I was getting really really tired of having to explain absolutely everything to you.....twice.

Image

Anyway......Have a great day!

Cheers!
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Subjectivist » Thu 17 Dec 2020, 14:59:00

Plantagenet wrote:I am pointing out that the argument that trains require infrastructure is true of every other kind of transport system as well. Air transport requires airports, flight controllers, etc. Boats require harbors and federal maintenance and dredging of shipping rivers and shipping routes. And EVs and ICE vehicles require huge amounts of infrastructure spending on roads and road maintenance.

The fact that trains are much more energy efficient then cars or planes or boats is precisely why we should be building out modern train networks instead of depending on private cars and trucks and airplanes. Trains are MORE ENERGY EFFICIENT. The more we use trains to replace trips in cars or planes, the more ENERGY EFFICIENT our whole society will become.

Cheers!


I agree with everything above, I just don't think we should concentrate on super high speed rail when we have so many low speed rail infrastructure problems we already need to deal with first.

https://youtu.be/tzNc57PYTeE

https://youtu.be/wRWfjEaIHXc
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Plantagenet » Thu 17 Dec 2020, 18:30:10

Biden just nominated Pete Buttigieg for Secretary of Transportation.....and Petey immediately declared himself the second biggest train lover in the administration after Joe Biden.

So we've got train lover #1 as President and train lover #2 as Sec. of Transportation.

I'd say the track is clear for the Biden administration to spend more on trains and train infrastructure.

Image
The TRACK IS CLEAR for train lover #1 and #2 to put lots of money into trains

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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Newfie » Fri 18 Dec 2020, 11:04:42

The biggest problem for rail is Covid. They will have to kill that first.
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby onthetree » Sat 02 Jan 2021, 12:45:07

The pros of HSR is if it exists use it . The cons tho are do not build more . The future is to risky for HSR now . The steele wheel may very well be effecient but a 500 ton passenger train may carry up to 50 tons of people if full so the energy effiency is really mostly moving the train , not the people . A 500 ton freight train can carry upwards of of over 1000 tons of goods which means the effeciency of the wheel is more to moving cargo . Passenger trains are really just heavey people movers from specific points to specific points . (not where i live to not where i'm going) . The steele wheel is only efficeint at moving weight at a steady speed like a freight train . It has nothing on acceleration needed by high speed trains , hill climbing , other modes to reach the train stations or air conditioning and heating of these passenger trains made of metal . The the effiency of the steele wheel on a passenger train is very diluted . A freight train to / from a port, mine , factory or over long distance can still be very energy efficient due to the weight it can carry at speed . So pasenger trains out , freight trains in .

Having said that if a passenger railway already exists you may as well use as best you can .

With the EV just around the corner and technolagy advancing very fast in these unsure times it is a big risk today to build big railway infrastructure which might become an environmental disaster if it's not needed in the end or just creates travel for the sake of travel .
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby JuanP » Sat 16 Jan 2021, 22:00:28

"Is China's maglev train as fast as an airliner?"
https://asiatimes.com/2021/01/china-set ... lev-train/

"A prototype locomotive using High-Temperature Superconducting (HTS) maglev technology was rolled out on Wednesday in southwest China’s city of Chengdu, according to SHINE.cn.

And yes, the domestically developed maglev train boasts a designed speed of 620 km/h, according to Southwest Jiaotong University, one of the train’s designers."

"China has been a world leader in the construction of high-speed railway. By the end of 2020, the country had 37,900km of high-speed rail lines in service, the longest in the world, according to China’s railway operator, the report said."

Worth checking out just for the pictures. One person pushed the 12 ton locomotive using just one finger!
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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Plantagenet » Sun 17 Jan 2021, 00:58:22

Yo Juan:

I once took a long trip on one of the old-style Chinese night trains, with bunks crowded in all through the train cars, and more recently I've taken a couple of trips on the new Chinese High Speed Rail lines. They are truly amazing, especially when you consider how quickly China built out its HSR network.

China is the shining example of how quickly a country can build infrastructure, including nationwide HSR networks.

Hopefully Joe Biden will follow in CHina's example....in the one specific area of HSR.

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Re: High Speed Rail: Pros and Cons

Postby Newfie » Sun 17 Jan 2021, 10:59:17

Plant,

We just pasted an article in The New Thread about the Navy's screwed up ship building problem.

A LOT of the at kind of problem is also seen in our transit system.

My objections to HSR aside the US seems to have lost the ability to make decent products, to innovate. The Acela Program was a good example with trains that hit one another and wheels that cracked. But also the much vaunted Washington Metro has various systemic failures, for starts it was supposed to he driverless but they cant make that happen.
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