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The coming Civil War Pt. 2

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 15 Dec 2020, 19:52:54

vtsnowedin wrote:Well not all of us have a four car garage with an RV ,boat, four wheelers, snow machines,and all sorts of other crap filling it so Momma can't get her Mercedes in when she gets home from shopping.
Now some do, and that is fine, but I, at just about the middle of the income spectrum have never had anything that could be considered "Opulent" and to say that all of America enjoyed Opulence for the last 80 years is to have no clear vision of the reality of the average persons life during that period.


Debt has enslaved many but in terms of raw consumption these have been opulent times. Unemployment rates low, obesity rates skyrocketed, fossil fuel consumption per capita, air travel miles per capita.

We discussed this up thread, folks in developing countries have a fraction of the material wealth, a fraction of car ownership, little job security, no good health coverage, live paycheck to paycheck, own very little stuff. They don't whine, they don't feel entitled.

I think we get confused on the vocabulary. Opulence does not mean wealth. Opulence is just having enough abundance to fill your life with food and stuff and relative security. For 80 years American culture has had no major disruptions to increased consumption. No honing experiences. No wars on our soil, no real economic depression that caused poverty levels to result in mal nourishment, etc. etc.

The lack of personal integrity among so many has everything to do with this opulence.

Why does the Mexican immigrant landscaping your back yard in 90 degree summer heat feel grateful and is hopeful for a better future while the son of an unemployed blue collar worker working a service industry job feel so angry?

Maybe it is the disappointed broken promise of opulence on top of all that empty materialism that has caused the whining. But it still is opulence in my book that explains the difference.

I have staff who earn $ 15 dollars a day doing farm labor burning 3000 - 4000 calories a day. And doing it smiling. How many Americans do you know who can first do this and second have a smile on their face?
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby JuanP » Tue 15 Dec 2020, 20:14:26

By global historical and pre historical standards, the American middle class has indeed lived and opulent lifestyle this past 80 years, enjoying more comforts, pleasures, safety, benefits, and luxuries than 99% of humanity did before 1940. I can't believe you would disagree with this, VT. If you disagree with this then you are living in denial of how fortunate all of us here have been, including the less fortunate among us.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby evilgenius » Wed 16 Dec 2020, 04:34:06

I think it's also true that people who come down from excess to less than excess are more likely to commit suicide than someone in the same condition who never experienced excess. I read something like that in a story a long time ago. They asked the very few who survived their attempts the same question, if they regretted doing it. They all said that within a split second they did, but couldn't do anything about it. It could be that some didn't regret it, but they weren't around to ask. It would seem to indicate that how we perceive these things is at least as important as how we think we feel about them. There is some relevance that the self plays. As always, the orientation we have with the world is important, but we don't think it is. It speaks of many things, including inherent biases and such, which are hard to realize we have.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 16 Dec 2020, 07:45:10

JuanP wrote:By global historical and pre historical standards, the American middle class has indeed lived and opulent lifestyle this past 80 years, enjoying more comforts, pleasures, safety, benefits, and luxuries than 99% of humanity did before 1940. I can't believe you would disagree with this, VT. If you disagree with this then you are living in denial of how fortunate all of us here have been, including the less fortunate among us.

Well I give you that being middle class in the USA or Canada is a lot better then being in the middle class of say Mexico or Nigeria but the term opulent implies a level of excess where little if any work is required to maintain one's lifestyle. Growing up poor and having to work my way into the middle class I know a lot of people that have never lived an opulent day in their lives or could go without a job and next weeks paycheck.
Now of course there are all those that are on the plus side of the median income and those that are in the top 25 percent of income and they have done quite well and enjoy their skiing vacations and Florida golf club memberships. But for everyone of them there are two on the low side of the median.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby Pops » Wed 16 Dec 2020, 10:17:44

The average person 100 years ago had never heard of RVs, pleasure boats, or 4 wheelers—they'd not know what to do with a ski boat.

Historically, heat, light, hot water, air conditioning, entertainment at the touch of a button even for folks at the hindmost tit would definitely be opulent. Overabundance of calories, an entire walmart wardrobe for a few hours work, medicine that would seem like magic, long, long lifespans, streets safe for anyone to walk (if they ignore fabulist media) — the mortality rate alone should be enough to convince anyone just how opulent our lives. Remember energy slaves?

Image

Most of that stuff is available to most of us in the first world. Compare any one of those categories to 100 years ago and we have it pretty good. Some folks have problems getting by, emotional, dependence, mental problems, but even these folks have lots of resources.

My folks were ditch-bank Okies, I was raised on a janitors' pay. Still our lives were light years more luxurious than my grandparents —who had oil money in the day, LOL
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 16 Dec 2020, 13:06:39

A matter of perspective I suppose and no need to argue it further.
I just spent a couple of hours with a wood splitter splitting perhaps two thirds of a cord. In my youth that same pile would have taken a full day or more with axe, maul, hammer and wedges, so yes that Honda engine was doing most of the work with about a quart of gas. But somehow it did not seem I was living an opulent life style while I was lifting the blocks onto the beam rail. :)
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby Pops » Wed 16 Dec 2020, 15:37:40

No doubt! I still nurse a bad shoulder from an encounter with a big old elm
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby JuanP » Wed 16 Dec 2020, 19:41:48

"When Deplorables Become Ungovernables
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... vernables/

"They see, once again, three – discombobulated – nodes in conflict: the post-historic Pacific and Atlantic coasts; the South – a sort of expanded Dixieland; and the Midwest – what would be the American heartland.

The hyper-modern Pacific-Atlantic nodes congregate high-tech and finance, profit from Pentagon techno-breakthroughs and benefit from the “America rules the waves” ethos that guarantees the global primacy of the U.S. dollar.

The rest of America is largely considered by the Pacific-Atlantic as just a collection of flyover states: the South – which regards itself as the real, authentic America; and the Midwest, largely disciplined and quite practical-minded, squeezed ideologically between the littoral powerhouses and the South."

This perspective is quite representative of how many people in the Third World see what is happening in the USA today.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 16 Dec 2020, 21:46:39

I frankly don't give a rat's pa-toot about how other countries see us.
As the rich and powerful are moving away from the coasts to lower tax states like Texas I foresee the balance of power moving with them.
Having large populations of welfare dependents left after the rich vacate will not balance the power lost when the rich and prosperous have moved away and taken their political contributions with them.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Wed 16 Dec 2020, 22:41:12

vtsnowedin wrote:I frankly don't give a rat's pa-toot about how other countries see us.


As I understand it, you live in a rural area. I would bet that you consider it to be important to have a good relationship with your neighbours. If that is the case then why would it not also apply at the country level? I don't think isolationism works -- if you want your country to have a prosperous, stable future you need to build a good relationship with other countries. That was something that non-Americans like myself really could not understand about Trump - he seemed to place little value on the relationship with countries that had a long history of shared trade and security agreements with the US. It may have been time for some of the relationships the US has with other countries to change but the way Trump went about it did an unnecessary amount of damage to those relationships.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 17 Dec 2020, 00:03:16

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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby JuanP » Thu 17 Dec 2020, 00:05:51

"How Portland Radicalized Me
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/12/16 ... alized-me/ .

An American psychiatrist's frontline perspective on what's been going on in Portland this year. I found this a very interesting read. Might even be interesting to xenophobic American extremists.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 17 Dec 2020, 13:33:45

vtsnowedin wrote:I frankly don't give a rat's pa-toot about how other countries see us.
.


I am not necessarily referring to you with what I will now comment but in general this attitude hides a defensive response to the following truths that many Americans are increasingly reacting to in a very defensive way:

1) Social democracies in Europe (and Canada) that balance free market capitalism with robust social programs demonstrate on all major metrics a superior standard of living and quality of life when compared to Americans.

2) America is no longer standing alone as the leader of free market economies and is increasingly sharing this space with allies and rivals who are increasingly out maneuvering the USA in geopolitics and global economics.

3) The lack of cohesiveness of society in America vs the rest of the developed world is alarming.

4) Your average American, whether rural or urban, is becoming increasingly provincial and ignorant on many fronts; education, geography, languages spoken, politics, economics, etc.

5) Americans vs other developing countries embrace religion and conspiracy theories at a disproportionate rate vs developed Asia and Europe.

When you say you don't give a fuck what the rest of the world thinks about America then you are just like a horse with blinders, plowing forward without looking to the side or behind because of objects that if you confront will frighten you out of your complacent sense of American exceptionalism.

When considering the above It is very important and quite patriotic that society engages in the greater world outside the borders of the USA.

When the USA acts like an ostrich with his head in the sand his behind is just asking for a geopolitical spanking.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 18 Dec 2020, 13:57:24

JuanP wrote:"How Portland Radicalized Me
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/12/16 ... alized-me/ .

An American psychiatrist's frontline perspective on what's been going on in Portland this year. I found this a very interesting read. Might even be interesting to xenophobic American extremists.


I did not find this a very interesting or valuable article.

First Being a Psychiatrist does not hold much weight for me. I know they have a lit of social and cultural stature but it is not warranted. Obviously SOME psychiatrist are very good, but it is a very individual thing. It psychiatrists are simply MD’s with a bit of psychological training, especially on how to dose medicines. psychologists receive much more specific training, Psychoanalysts receive the most. But a degree or title proves nothing, it is more about the individuals innate ability, much like music. Having been around the “trade” I have met some real doozies.

Beyond that I heard a lot of emotional tension, past traumas upon past traumas. I heard a mixed up and confused person who is not in personal control.

What is in this story other than one persons emotional observations?
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby JuanP » Fri 18 Dec 2020, 15:08:57

Newfie wrote:
JuanP wrote:"How Portland Radicalized Me
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/12/16 ... alized-me/ .

An American psychiatrist's frontline perspective on what's been going on in Portland this year. I found this a very interesting read. Might even be interesting to xenophobic American extremists.


I did not find this a very interesting or valuable article.

First Being a Psychiatrist does not hold much weight for me. I know they have a lit of social and cultural stature but it is not warranted. Obviously SOME psychiatrist are very good, but it is a very individual thing. It psychiatrists are simply MD’s with a bit of psychological training, especially on how to dose medicines. psychologists receive much more specific training, Psychoanalysts receive the most. But a degree or title proves nothing, it is more about the individuals innate ability, much like music. Having been around the “trade” I have met some real doozies.

Beyond that I heard a lot of emotional tension, past traumas upon past traumas. I heard a mixed up and confused person who is not in personal control.

What is in this story other than one persons emotional observations?


Al that is true. What I found very interesting was how the author changed his opinions and beliefs about the BLM protests based on his experience as a part of them, which is highly unusual in today's USA, where everybody's ideas and beliefs are always so rigid, fixed, partisan, and polarized. He went from believing that violence was a useful and necessary tool to force social changes to becoming a pacifist. I believe going through this process is an interesting personal growth experience.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 18 Dec 2020, 21:06:33

Perhaps. Back during Nam I was classified as a “Contentious Objector”, which hot me a 4 year assignment vs a 2 year enlistment. So, when evasion became impossible, I dropped that status and enlisted in the USCG, at least they were dedicated to saving lives.

To this day I retain those pacifist leanings. I didn't need any psychological trauma to figure out running around trying to kill people was not a good career path. Just seems kinda sensible to me.

Perhaps thats why I am not a cheer leader for this coming civil war theory.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 19 Dec 2020, 05:26:48

Perhaps there will always be tension in any society that relies upon an educated public to function? Any time such a society obtains a certain level of advancement, especially if it occurs in a punctuated, stepwise manner, it will by definition leave behind a certain number of people. That number will always resemble, for whatever reasons, a majority. It may not actually be a majority, but it will come close. Calling people who are left behind in this manner deplorables means that they will be energized to act out against the very thing they ought to be embracing. The same goes for gaslighting those who are perceived as weak or that others accuse of an attitude of entitlement. Both sides are actively engaged in doing these things. I wish there was a reference, like how expert doctors can come around and tell us how to avoid getting sick from the virus, which both sides agreed was authoritative, and which was truly neutral.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 19 Dec 2020, 08:43:21

evilgenius wrote: it will by definition leave behind a certain number of people. That number will always resemble, for whatever reasons, a majority. It may not actually be a majority, but it will come close.


This is the argument for having a strong social democracy with policies that focus both on strong market economies and robust social programs like what you see in Europe and Canada. This is not leftist ideology, this is comparable to proper hygiene and maintenance of a society. We have to begin to recognize that when you neglect education, livable minimum wages, good health care etc. you end up creating an underclass that will no longer be complacent. They will agitate and also become very vulnerable to populists on either the right or the left.

There is an extremely pragmatic equation here that we seem to be missing in America.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Sat 19 Dec 2020, 17:23:51

Conservatives devolved into the Guns, God (Know-Nothing), Pro-Life and Corporate Rule.

Know Nothing and Corporate rule sort of go together because if one is too dumb to decide one's future, might as well leave it to Corporations and the Wealthy.

Guns and Pro-Life is like a contradiction, but the greater the contradiction, the more impervious to reason.

That's a formidable backdrop to immigration, integration and our liberal concept of progress.

Another way to look at it, is that conservatives look inward and liberals look outward. Hard to reconcile that.
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Re: The coming Civil War Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 20 Dec 2020, 00:05:17

Ibon wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:I frankly don't give a rat's pa-toot about how other countries see us.
.


I am not necessarily referring to you with what I will now comment but in general this attitude hides a defensive response to the following truths that many Americans are increasingly reacting to in a very defensive way:

1) Social democracies in Europe (and Canada) that balance free market capitalism with robust social programs demonstrate on all major metrics a superior standard of living and quality of life when compared to Americans.

2) America is no longer standing alone as the leader of free market economies and is increasingly sharing this space with allies and rivals who are increasingly out maneuvering the USA in geopolitics and global economics.

3) The lack of cohesiveness of society in America vs the rest of the developed world is alarming.

4) Your average American, whether rural or urban, is becoming increasingly provincial and ignorant on many fronts; education, geography, languages spoken, politics, economics, etc.

5) Americans vs other developing countries embrace religion and conspiracy theories at a disproportionate rate vs developed Asia and Europe.

When you say you don't give a fuck what the rest of the world thinks about America then you are just like a horse with blinders, plowing forward without looking to the side or behind because of objects that if you confront will frighten you out of your complacent sense of American exceptionalism.

When considering the above It is very important and quite patriotic that society engages in the greater world outside the borders of the USA.

When the USA acts like an ostrich with his head in the sand his behind is just asking for a geopolitical spanking.


I think you are ignoring WHY Americans in general adopted the attitude you are whining about. From the first colonies in the 1580's the Europeans powers considered anyone from North America to be nothing but hicks from the back of beyond. Even though it was American money and supplies and the promise of manpower that tipped the balance in WW I the European powers had so little respect for the USA (or anyone else not from Europe) that they agreed amongst themselves what the Treaty of Versailles would say and then refused to budge on it until President Wilson caved in and agreed to their terms. In 1939 Winston Churchill whose mother was an American born and raised before she married into his fathers family and moved to the UK did everything in his power to get the USA into the European war by every means at his disposal short of a false flag attack. After Pearl Harbor at the insistence of Churchill we stuck to the policy of Europe First despite the fact that Hitler had already invaded the USSR making the conclusion of the war their a foregone situation. Germany could not hope to win a war against basically everyone else. Just sending vital supplies to the UK/USSR would have guaranteed his defeat by the end of 1945 without a single American serving in Africa or Europe. Yet despite all that the USA did in money and blood to "save Europe from Fascism" the French, British and many others in Europe have a habit of still talking down to Americans as if we were errant school children who need to be corrected.

Obviously many Americans do not appreciate this sneering sense of superiority we hear from many prominent Europeans, however you seem to be just fine with it because you don't much like America either. Hey it takes all kinds of people to fill up a world, but that doesn't mean I have to love them all. You don't like rural American attitudes, that's okay I don't like judgmental expat attitudes so that is fair enough. The constant assumption that certain viewpoints are so obviously superior that actually trying to convince political opposition to see that point of view is unnecessary because talking down to those opponents and pointing out the error of their ways is all the conversation needed just rubs those poor rural hicks you condescend to instruct the wrong way.

Imagine that!
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