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Modern Collapsology

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby REAL Green » Thu 15 Oct 2020, 11:38:40

Tanada wrote:many empires that have collapsed historically suffer from a commonality. That common factor is, the central government became too set in its ways and entrenched in protecting its perceived government bureaucracy self interest...We are not quite there yet, but the bumbling over reaction to Covid and the hyper partisanship are very bad signs going forward from here.


I agree but keep in mind there is really no empire now there is the global. The global is the new empire and there is no more planet to expand the global to. This means no place on earth will remain untouched.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby Subjectivist » Thu 15 Oct 2020, 12:13:01

REAL Green wrote:
Tanada wrote:many empires that have collapsed historically suffer from a commonality. That common factor is, the central government became too set in its ways and entrenched in protecting its perceived government bureaucracy self interest...We are not quite there yet, but the bumbling over reaction to Covid and the hyper partisanship are very bad signs going forward from here.


I agree but keep in mind there is really no empire now there is the global. The global is the new empire and there is no more planet to expand the global to. This means no place on earth will remain untouched.


Isn't that kind of the whole point? Some folks believe everything is global and international aspects are all that matter while other folks still believe national/local aspects are everything? Globalism has been nothing but a continuous drain on Ohio. Having people proudly proclaim localism/nationalism is dead certainly doesn't get my vote.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby REAL Green » Thu 15 Oct 2020, 12:44:50

Subjectivist wrote: Globalism has been nothing but a continuous drain on Ohio. Having people proudly proclaim localism/nationalism is dead certainly doesn't get my vote.


Rampant globalism is the reason localism is more important than ever except that a local must realize the global trap they are in. Everywhere is delocalized by globalism. If they are not delocalized for their survival of the need for products then it is by risk of exposure of the cascading failure of globalism. I am a firm advocate of localism as the way forward for most people who want some meaning to return to their life by positive change scaled properly.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 15 Oct 2020, 17:30:18

REAL Green wrote:
Subjectivist wrote: Globalism has been nothing but a continuous drain on Ohio. Having people proudly proclaim localism/nationalism is dead certainly doesn't get my vote.


Rampant globalism is the reason localism is more important than ever except that a local must realize the global trap they are in. Everywhere is delocalized by globalism. If they are not delocalized for their survival of the need for products then it is by risk of exposure of the cascading failure of globalism. I am a firm advocate of localism as the way forward for most people who want some meaning to return to their life by positive change scaled properly.

3D printing is not quite there yet. Until it is, things will have to be delivered. Heck, even when it is, the raw materials will probably still have to be shipped. Globalism will make that possible, if we try hard enough.

People talk about the future as if there is only one form of globalism. They forget the hippy version, one of many that offers something like real peace, for the one Marx had really to be referring to when he critiqued Capitalism. We are much more in line with the one that Marx predicted than the one that supplies, simply, as we demand. That one doesn't come with institutionalized slavery to our own consumption. Marx knew we would always want things to be cheaper. It takes a lot of pain and organization to really get cheap. He knew what we would gladly do to our fellow man to get there.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby REAL Green » Thu 15 Oct 2020, 17:46:46

evilgenius wrote: Until it is, things will have to be delivered. Heck, even when it is, the raw materials will probably still have to be shipped. Globalism will make that possible, if we try hard enough.


I am realistic about globalism. I have what I have now becuase of it. Pure localism means going way back in time and in fact is something that cannot be done by most. My point is localism must be elevated where it is possible to give some places more resilience and sustainability. Globalism in a time of decline is unstable and dangerous. There is no way we can have so many people on this earth living as they do without globalism. Our modern ways are directly supported by globalism. So I may not like globalism but I realize who is buttering my bread. I am just saying get some feet on the ground locally and make an effort to be less dependent on globalism. If you are in a bad local then leave. This includes the people you associate with.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 15 Oct 2020, 18:03:40

Tanada wrote:We are not quite there yet, but the bumbling over reaction to Covid and the hyper partisanship are very bad signs going forward from here.


Honestly, the hyper-partisanship is quite distressing. The idea that Americans have basically lost the ability to think for themselves in mass (being involved in peak oil for awhile now, I understand it has always been with us) is disturbing. If logic, facts, basic scientific principles that got us to where we are as a species continues to be jettisoned at the outset of any conversation, yeah, we are SO hosed!
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 15 Oct 2020, 18:10:38

REAL Green wrote: I am a firm advocate of localism as the way forward for most people who want some meaning to return to their life by positive change scaled properly.


Absolutely!! Good for Americans, it is already being done, and all you've got to do is buy in to the future early.


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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 16 Oct 2020, 13:51:57

REAL Green wrote:
An incident such as this also has the potential to contribute to the sudden collapse of modern civilization:



More evidence of diminishing returns to technology. This phenomenon is starting to go nonlinear in some areas.


Not that it would matter much if you had chosen the path of REAL Green with the Amish folks though! You'd be sitting around, without any cable or internet, and you wouldn't even notice when they go offline.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 16 Oct 2020, 14:47:37

AdamB wrote:Not that it would matter much if you had chosen the path of REAL Green with the Amish folks though! You'd be sitting around, without any cable or internet, and you wouldn't even notice when they go offline.


I am using a local Amish to build my shop now. It has been interesting to see their style. They really have to be managed becuase they are set in their ways but accommodating. I am incorporating extreme insulation strategies that they have not done before so I have had to teach them some new methods. It has been interesting to visit their farms. They need a ride occasionally so I have been to their farms. These Amish actually use more modern stuff than one might think. Most of all they don't drive or operate equipment but they have plenty of power tools. They will probably save me 30% but they have also cost me more time managing the effort.

Keep in mind REAL Green is not TRUE Green. True Green is an aboriginal off the grid in a harmonious existence in balance with the earths systems. Not much of that anymore. When I was younger, I was an outdoor survivalist type when I could be. I would go offline as much as I could as a matter of discipline. I am getting older now so I am not interested in a tough life. REAL Green is much more about a localized focus of people and place. It is realistic and relative so it applies to anyone. It is behavioral first and foremost in regards to the embrace of a macro decline process. What this means is a REAL Green embraces a planetary decline and acknowledges humans are part of this. REAL Green finds a hybrid arrangement of the best practices and things of both old and modern. REAL Green combines the old and the new in the local to go low carbon locally. Low carbon generally loses its low carbon once it gets mobility so localism is a key.

I am very much a part of current events but mainly for enjoyment. I am not going to march or protest. I will tell my kids not to go to war unless it is in our local. I will spend my money locally if possible. I will support locals when I can. Yet, the realistic part of this is my people and place are delocalized as is most of civilization today so REAL Green says use to leave it. I drive and have vehicles. I occasionally fly places. I participate in consumerism. I am also obsessed with conservation and efficiency but again realistically. I am managing wildlife but also animals. I do gardens, orchards, and grapes. I use the global to turbo change my local and I attempt to lower my footprint in the process. It is hard to do but can be done.

I combine all this in green prepping which means I have all the prep assets needed for a crisis but I have taken it further with a green and prepped lifestyle embedded in localism. Properly scaled localism is more resilient and sustainable so a good prep lifestyle. I have no illusions my prep and my green might be consumed in a Mad Max or a abrupt climate event. I could lose all I have but REAL Green is about a journey not a destination. So basically, I am embracing the decline process the planet is in and mirroring it in my own life taking destructive change and finding niches for constructive change. A microclime is the result if somebody has chosen a good local to invest in. Local means people and place. So, choose the right people too not just the place.

This then becomes like a retreat in force. It reminds me of what the Germans did on the eastern front in WWII. The Germans were losing the war but often winning the battles as the slowly retreated across the vast expanses of the eastern front. In a similar way REAL Green retreats in force with high morale. The downsizing with dignity and in place means less affluence but more spiritual meaning. It is this spiritual meaning that is the key to embracing less. Spiritual meaning makes up for the loss of things. I could have a place at the beach but instead mess with animals and plants in a harsh environment. I am lucky to have the time and money so I am not going to act above others.

REAL Green is not concerned with comparisons and competition. It is local and individual. It is not a cult or religion. It is an add on like an Ap that can be included with your own higher power of meaning. It is about enlisting the planet in your support buy emulating its ecological succession. This is one of the reasons when I get criticism of REAL Green, I just laugh it off. It is not meant to be better than anyone. It is not self-righteous. It is instead humbled because the planet is the power it seeks to embrace. Many have powers higher than the planet with their faith. There are no issues with this. REAL green is more a disposition of action than a badge of achievement. This may all seem like a tossed world salad but the keep point to it is local and individual. Make of it what you want. It is open source.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 16 Oct 2020, 15:08:28

REAL Green wrote:
AdamB wrote:Not that it would matter much if you had chosen the path of REAL Green with the Amish folks though! You'd be sitting around, without any cable or internet, and you wouldn't even notice when they go offline.


I am using a local Amish to build my shop now.


Sure! We used them for building sheds and furniture when I was a kid.

REAL Green wrote:Keep in mind REAL Green is not TRUE Green. True Green is an aboriginal off the grid in a harmonious existence in balance with the earths systems.


Nah, humans don't have to be hunter-gatherers to qualify as TRUE green. The Amish lifestyle is simple enough, renewable enough (if you exclude the genetic effects of breeding in small populations).

REAL Green wrote: So basically, I am embracing the decline process the planet is in and mirroring it in my own life taking destructive change and finding niches for constructive change.


Nothing wrong with that at all. But the Amish sure seem to have figured all of this out before rich First Worlders showed up and turned the planet into a Persian rug-market, everything for sale for a price type bizarre.

REAL Green wrote: The downsizing with dignity and in place means less affluence but more spiritual meaning. It is this spiritual meaning that is the key to embracing less.


Well, to each their own spiritual meaning perhaps? Consumers, while not having a defined religion, seems to give them happiness, so they might disagree with less is more.

REAL Green wrote: Spiritual meaning makes up for the loss of things.


Religion has been selling this for millennia. If it was inherently true, how could the overwhelming popularity of consumerism have ever gotten started?
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 17 Oct 2020, 21:09:02

Newfie wrote:Adam,

You need to lighten up a good bit.


Understood.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby REAL Green » Tue 20 Oct 2020, 08:33:07

One of the initial signs of the collpase process is a dysfunctional system with irrational responses:

“Watch: Google Whistleblower Tells Veritas Search Engine Is "Skewing Results" To Benefit Democrats”
https://summit.news/2020/10/20/video-go ... democrats/

“A person who claims to be a program manager at Google Cloud has told investigative journalists with Project Veritas that the search engine is intentionally manipulating results in order to benefit the Democrats and to hinder President Trump’s campaign. Ritesh Lakhkar, who identified himself as a technical program manager at Google’s Cloud service, made the comments in footage released Monday. The interview appears to have been filmed without Lakhkar’s knowledge. The project manager accused Google of “playing god” with US politics, and of ‘skewing’ it’s algorithms to project negative news and talking points where Trump is concerned…When asked if Google favours one party over another, Lakhkar commented that “The wind is blowing toward Democrats, because GOP equals Trump and Trump equals GOP. Everybody hates it, even though GOP may have good traits, no one wants to acknowledge them right now.”…Remember when Google had that meeting in 2016 after Trump won and vowed to never let it happen again? Have you tried finding anything on Google in the last 2 years that doesn't amplify Democrat talking points?...He emphasised that “Like, if it was fraud it doesn’t matter, but for Trump or Melania Trump, it matters… Trump says something, misinformation. You’re going to delete that because it’s illegal under whatever pretext. And if a Democratic leader says that, you’re going to leave it.” Describing the working environment at Google, Lakhkar said “your opinion matters more than your work.” “When Trump won the first time, people were crying in the corridors of Google. There were protests, there were marches. There were like, I guess, group therapy sessions for employees organized by HR,” he said. The whistleblower continued, “I guess that’s one of the reasons I feel suffocated [at Google]. Because on one side you have this unprofessional attitude, and on the other side you have this ultra-leftist attitude. Your entire existence is questioned.” Google has not responded to the allegations at time of writing.”
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 20 Oct 2020, 09:09:35

RealGreen,

The problem with that story is its from Project Veritas, therefore tainted with their past history.

It needs to be somehow verified independently to have wide credibility.

Fox is not covering it.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby REAL Green » Tue 20 Oct 2020, 09:52:07

Newfie wrote:RealGreen,

The problem with that story is its from Project Veritas, therefore tainted with their past history.

It needs to be somehow verified independently to have wide credibility.

Fox is not covering it.


Lol, as if MSM is legit or Fox. I think project veritas it is just as legit as any other source in this day and age of official corruption. No source can be trusted. It takes looking at as many as possible from all sides of the sprectrum to get a sense of what is going on. BTW, did you see this news which points to the legitimacy of project veritas inside look at google:

"DoJ Finally Files Sweeping Antitrust Lawsuit Against Google"
https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/do ... nst-google

"Republican Sen Josh Hawley accused Google of keeping power through "illegal means" and called the lawsuit "the most important antitrust case in a generation." Reuters also note that the federal lawsuit marks a rare moment of comity between the Trump Administration and progressive Democrats like Sen Elizabeth Warren, who has called for "swift, aggressive action." Some may remember that Google settled an FTC antitrust probe into Google over alleged bias in its search practice that favored Google's own products. It has also settled a trio of major antitrust suits with EU antitrust chief Margrethe Vestager. Google saw revenue of $162 billion in 2019, more than the GDP of the entire nation of Hungary. This could be only the beginning for Google, as more lawsuits could be in the offing since probes by state attorneys general into Google’s broader businesses are underway, as well as an investigation of its broader digital advertising businesses. A group of state AGs led by Texas is expected to file a separate lawsuit focused on Google's digital advertising business as soon as November, while a group led by the AG in Colorado is reportedly weighing a more wide-ranging lawsuit."
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:04:11

Real,

Unfortunately you have a valid point.

Staying with my kids a couple of days. Last night they out on CNN news. My Wife (far leftie) finally asked them to turn it off. It was best characterized as gossip, malicious gossip. Not that Fox is any better, all sewers empty into the same pit.

I find we are sensitized to this crap, or more accuratly; the USA population is DEsensitized to this crap. Rude and irrational behavior has become all to common and acceptable.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:52:44

Newfie wrote:Real,

Unfortunately you have a valid point.

Staying with my kids a couple of days. Last night they out on CNN news. My Wife (far leftie) finally asked them to turn it off. It was best characterized as gossip, malicious gossip. Not that Fox is any better, all sewers empty into the same pit.

I find we are sensitized to this crap, or more accuratly; the USA population is DEsensitized to this crap. Rude and irrational behavior has become all to common and acceptable.


Intentionally I insulate myself from too much exposure to this bullshit. I never watched any of the debates, I just read the summary the following day. Or I come here to po.com.

We shouldn't underestimate how even we ourselves here on po.com who consider ourselves to be above average informed are also being indoctrinated with this lack of civility.

Related to this is the way apposing sides are demonized and portrayed as raving mad extremists. Frankly, I shy away from reading Realgreen's diatribes because even though he accurately points out some of the excessive directions liberals have taken you can see how he has almost entered into conspiracy territory how he demonizes this with emotional prose.

Everyone seems so sensitive and wounded in America these days.

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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby JuanP » Tue 20 Oct 2020, 13:06:20

Ibon wrote:Intentionally I insulate myself from too much exposure to this bullshit. I never watched any of the debates, I just read the summary the following day. Or I come here to po.com.

We shouldn't underestimate how even we ourselves here on po.com who consider ourselves to be above average informed are also being indoctrinated with this lack of civility.


I never watched any of the debates either. I decided to try and make the effort, and turned the cable and TV on, to watch the town halls at 8:45 pm, 45 minutes late. They were playing commercials. I muted the TV, sat there a minute, and thought to myself "Am I really going to waste my time doing this? How would it benefit anyone?", then I turned the TV off and went back to the Permaculture design I was working on. Life is too short!

I am a LOT less civil than I used to be. I recently stopped talking to people I don't know when riding the elevators at the condo where I live. I don't initiate conversations, but do engage if the other person does; I don't even say hi. The world is nowhere near as polite as it used to be, and I am constantly trying to adapt to it without much success. I am very grateful that I spend most of my awake time alone or with my wife at the farm.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 20 Oct 2020, 13:56:33

JuanP wrote: The world is nowhere near as polite as it used to be,


Careful..... The USA is nowhere near as polite as it used to be. Panama folks are not split and are still kind. Y los uruguayos seguro no estan dejando esta mierda infectar su cultura?
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 20 Oct 2020, 14:17:15

A fair bit of psychological study points to human density decreasing connections. When over pressed we retreat into a hyper “polite world where we don't talk or interact with One another. When that shield is shattered it is not polite.

On line we can somewhat lower that shield safely. Thus this is something of a safety valve.
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Re: Modern Collapsology

Unread postby JuanP » Tue 20 Oct 2020, 14:45:39

Ibon wrote:
JuanP wrote: The world is nowhere near as polite as it used to be,


Careful..... The USA is nowhere near as polite as it used to be. Panama folks are not split and are still kind. Y los uruguayos seguro no estan dejando esta mierda infectar su cultura?


Things in Uruguay are not as bad in this respect yet, but they've been getting worse for decades. I think the trend is global, and not exclusive to the US. People in Panama are probably less nice than they were decades ago, too. But, it could take you one or two decades of living there to see the trend. So, places like Uruguay or Panama may be more civil or polite, but that is relative. I do think the worsening trend is global.
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