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THE Coal Thread pt 4

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: The Green New Deal and the Growth of Renewables

Unread postby JuanP » Sat 02 May 2020, 08:01:43

"Russia to boost coal production & sales, will be world's top exporter within decade"
https://www.rt.com/business/487200-russ ... rts-boost/

And the Chinese will buy every gram of that coal, which is bad news for Australia's economy.
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Re: The Green New Deal and the Growth of Renewables

Unread postby REAL Green » Sat 02 May 2020, 08:05:56

JuanP wrote:"Russia to boost coal production & sales, will be world's top exporter within decade"
https://www.rt.com/business/487200-russ ... rts-boost/

And the Chinese will buy every gram of that coal, which is bad news for Australia's economy.



More like bad news for the planet but China and Russia could care less.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 02 May 2020, 14:33:20

People seem clueless, or more kindly they have very short memories. China is still opening a new cola burning facility at least once a week. In some cases they are using the newer more efficient plants to close the last few very dirty old coal burners they still have. Sure right now today their economy based on exports is in the crapper, but they plan on coming out the other side of the Covid-19 pandemic positioned to retake market share on the global scale. To do they they need plenty of power for all their existing factories and the new ones they are planning to build as ever more industry is centered on China.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 11 Jul 2020, 22:39:05

The simple fact of the matter is China burns nearly 2 BILLION metric tons of coal a year with no end in sight.
Image

India burns another 400 Million tons a year and still growing,
Image

When combined with the rest of Asia and Australia/New Zealand the major consumers include Japan and both Korea's bringing the total up to around 2.8 Billion tons annually.
Image

IOW the dreamy proclamations that the days of major coal consumption are behind us forever are without basis in reality. Time to face reality folks, CO2 emissions are still growing year in and year out. Just because Fracking has given the USA an abundance of natural gas for the present and our internal coal consumption has dropped by about 30% from a decade ago does not mean the same thing is happening everywhere else, or that it even could.

On top of that, even if Asia were able to frack enough gas to cut their coal consumption by 30% what would that actually mean? The energy demand is still there and still being met, and because Natural Gas releases about half the CO2 of hard coal you are not cutting total emissions by 30%, at best you are cutting them by 15%. You are also adding the myriad of tiny leaks from hundreds of thousands of gas line connections. On top of that if the combustion efficiency of every flame is improbably maintained at 98% you are still releasing megatons of CH4 into the atmosphere, and it is a far more efficient greenhouse gas than CO2 as well.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby JuanP » Sat 11 Jul 2020, 23:13:20

And the moment natural gas becomes more expensive and/or scarce, which will inevitably happen, demand for coal will rise again increasing coal prices which will lead to more coal production and consumption, including in the USA. The fracking boom made gas cheaper than coal, which reduced demand for coal TEMPORARILY.

And no amount of renewable energy will change that. We will burn everything we can, including all the coal we temporarily stopped burning because gas was cheaper for a while.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 11 Jul 2020, 23:34:58

JuanP wrote: The fracking boom made gas cheaper than coal, which reduced demand for coal TEMPORARILY.


Except when renewables are cheaper than coal, demand doesn't come back. Duh.

Image

JuanP wrote:And no amount of renewable energy will change that.


And what system, and data, might you have used to arrive at that conclusion? Alternatively, as NEMS is open source, did you run your own assumptions into a system that can compete these resources and deliver the above answer? Except deliver YOUR answer instead?

JuanP wrote: We will burn everything we can, including all the coal we temporarily stopped burning because gas was cheaper for a while.


Good thing those renewables don't usually require us burning stuff then!
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 12 May 2022, 16:56:38

Does America Have a Secret Energy Source? Yes, It's Coal

The quick rise in the price of natural gas to levels not seen since 2008 has made one thing clear: The idea that gas was an economical bridge to a renewable energy future was flawed.

The price of natural gas, which accounts for about 40% of electricity used by Americans and half of home-heating needs, has more than doubled this year and is expected to remain high in the aftermath of Russia's invasion of Ukraine and its curtailment of gas exports to Poland and Bulgaria.

In fact, U.S. natural gas prices surged above $8 per million British thermal units, four times what they were before the pandemic. This dramatic price increase changes the economics of electricity generating technologies. Natural gas electricity generating units are inexpensive to build and quick to construct and combined with low natural gas costs became the favored generating technology in the United States.

The U.S. natural gas glut that once defined the shale era is gone. Come next year, fully 20% of U.S. gas production is expected to be exported. High overseas prices are now inflating the price of gas here at home. However, an energy friendly administration could reverse the U. S. natural gas supply problem which could lower its price.

This adds up to a very different outlook from a few years ago, when natural gas was in such ample supply that its price had tanked. While shale gas producers are starting to ramp up drilling, they’re struggling to meet high demand and price relief remains distant.

With energy-driven inflation a stubborn problem, this new surge in gas prices couldn’t come at a worse time. The addition of renewable power to temper gas demand will help but it’s hardly a cure-all. Wind and solar power are already the fastest growing sources of power but together they still only meet roughly 13% of U.S. power demand and are not reliable sources of electricity. Also building the transmission infrastructure needed to connect them to urban centers from the sunniest and windiest regions of the country remains an enormous challenge. Opposition to new interstate power lines is such a problem transmission additions have actually decreased when experts tell us they need to increase significantly.

Ensuring that energy inflation doesn’t get far worse is going to require an energy policy reset that gets the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) agenda in line with energy pragmatism. It may seem anathema to the Biden administration’s climate goals but it’s time to reevaluate the importance of the coal fleet and put EPA’s daggers away.

The best hedge consumers have against high natural gas prices is the coal fleet that continues to meet 20% of U.S. power demand -- and double that in some regions of the country. These plants provide security to the grid and offer choices in fuel use.

When gas prices soar – as they are now – coal generation rises, shielding rate payers from higher power costs. Unfortunately, much of the coal fleet is facing a renewed regulatory push that could see it disappear just when it’s needed most. Half the coal fleet that existed a decade ago is gone and utilities have already scheduled the closure of dozens of more plants. In some regions coal plants are closing sooner than anticipated and complicating electricity reliability. Several regional transmission organizations forecast very tight electricity supplies this summer. There is an increased probability of forced blackouts.

EPA has signaled it’s about to use every tool at its disposal to accelerate coal plant closures. That’s a mistake policymakers must make sure doesn’t happen. We should be able to do things in an intelligent way. A pragmatic energy approach accelerates renewable energy deployment while also ensuring the coal fleet remains a near-term buffer against soaring natural gas prices.

Coal capacity is also playing an unheralded but critical role in preserving grid reliability when renewable generation has faltered. Blackouts have hit California and Texas in recent years and the grid operator for the Midwest is now warning that some states could see rolling blackouts this year for lack of enough generating capacity.

The bridge we need to our energy future is a balanced electricity mix that values coal, natural gas, nuclear power and renewables as all playing an important part on the energy path forward. Soaring natural gas prices and the pain of energy-driven inflation call for energy pragmatism. Now’s the time to recognize the role the coal fleet should play in it.


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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 12 May 2022, 17:48:42

A reasonable explanation of what America's abundance of natural gas, and the expertise and E&Ps applying it, has wrought. I remember about a decade or 8 years back or so when discussing exactly what would happen when America became a monster influence on the LNG market, folks just whined and complained about America not having a century of natural gas and doom was, as usual, right around the corner. I was there at the conference when the Secretary of Energy was asked about the permits for LNG....IMPORT facilties. The good ole days! I remember Art B. doing what he always does, proclaiming the end, only to have his mini-frame snuffed out by the deluge of shale sourced hydrocarbons that about invalidated every word he ever wrote on American NG and oil resources.

Even more amusing, companies decide to buy back stock, pay down debt, and suddenly growth rates aren't what they were expected to be? ANOTHER riot, except this time from the overly enthusiastic who don't know any more about industry operations after a debt fueled growth binge than they do not just how, but IF the growth can continue.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 09 Jul 2023, 19:30:10

2021 set a new world record for coal consumption.

Global coal production amounted to approximately 167.6 exajoules in 2021. This represented an increase of some 5.6 percent in comparison to the previous year. Between 2000 and 2021, production of coal across the globe increased by more than 70 exajoules, reaching a production-peak in the latter year.

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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 10 Jul 2023, 09:45:33

Coal Production By Country

Based on the link above China produced and consumed 3.708 Billion tons of coal. That is more than the next nine nations, India, USA, Australia, Indonesia, Russia, South Africa, Germany, Poland and Kazakhstan, combined. Together these nine nations produced 3.695 Billion tons of coal.

Those pretending China cares about climate impacts of CO2 production are either terrible naive or lying in your face.

I don't blame China, anyone who studied paleo climate knows that a warmer world is actually more fertile and life friendly not the world wide dead desert so often proclaimed by the alarmists sorts. It is quite likely that if weather patterns shift it will mean the Gobi Desert will become much more hospitable than it is today. The loss of coastal lands will easily be made up with the reclaimed land in the desert and adjoining Siberia that are currently only lightly populated.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 22 Jul 2023, 03:28:50

China's reliance on coal-fired power generation increased during the first half of 2023 as continued drought severely reduced hydroelectric power in the southern provinces.Total generation from all sources increased by +205 billion kilowatt-hours (kWh) in the first six months of 2023

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It's always good to have a valid excuse though.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby jato0072 » Sat 22 Jul 2023, 09:48:36

China has to make all of that "green energy" for the climate zealots who are now in charge of western policy. Where do you think "green energy" comes from!?! :lol:
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 22 Jul 2023, 18:20:05

jato0072 wrote:China has to make all of that "green energy" for the climate zealots who are now in charge of western policy. Where do you think "green energy" comes from!?! :lol:


:lol: Yes, it's obvious when you see it isn't it.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 08 Oct 2023, 12:27:20

Germany Restarts Coal-Fired Generation to Support Winter Power Supply

Government officials in Germany have approved a plan to bring some shuttered coal-fired power plants back online in an effort to avoid energy shortages this winter.

Cabinet members on Oct. 4 said they would support putting on-reserve lignite-fired power plants back online from now until the end of March 2024. It’s another move related to Russia’s ongoing invasion of Ukraine, which resulted in a drop in imports of Russian natural gas to Germany and much of Europe over the past two years.

Germany reactivated some coal-fired power plants last year, and extended their operating lifespans. Government data showed about 1.9 GWh of electricity was generated from coal last winter. Officials said they will study coal-fired generation this winter and decide next summer on plans to offset increases in carbon emissions. They also said they remain committed to a phase-out of all coal-fired generation in the country by 2030.

The country’s economic ministry said several coal-fired units operated by energy companies RWE and LEAG at their Niederaußem, Neurath, and Jaenschwalde power plants will be temporarily reactivated until March of next year to provide more security for Germany’s electricity supply. Those units also operated last winter due to the reduced supply of natural gas from Russia, and were on standby this past summer.

Germany’s electricity supply also has been reduced as the country completed its phase-out of nuclear power earlier this year, when the country’s three remaining nuclear facilities were taken offline. The move ended more than 60 years of nuclear power generation in Germany.

Germany is not the only European nation restarting coal-fired units to provide more energy security. The UK restarted some coal-fired generation this past summer to cope with rising demand for power during a heat wave. France also restarted a coal-fired power station last winter.

—Darrell Proctor is a senior associate editor for POWER


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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby mousepad » Sun 08 Oct 2023, 14:30:10

Tanada wrote:
[b]Germany Restarts Coal-Fired Generation to Support Winter Power Supply


GET OUT!!!

It's time after time that kublikan and his university and gov studies have shown, that solar and wind are cheaper than coal. Are you telling me that germany is so dumb as to pick the more costly option on purpose?

https://energynews.us/newsletter/renewa ... than-coal/

Solar is not only cheaper than coal. It is WAY cheaper!
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 08 Oct 2023, 15:45:21

mousepad wrote:GET OUT!!!

It's time after time that kublikan and his university and gov studies have shown, that solar and wind are cheaper than coal. Are you telling me that germany is so dumb as to pick the more costly option on purpose?
This is exactly the kind of binary thinking I have come to expect from you. I an not a renewable hater like you, so I must be a blind fanboy. Well just incase you want to show that you can act like an adult and stop with this petty crap, here are some of my previous posts on these issues:

kublikhan wrote:Aug 07, 2023 - ...more expensive energy, such as buffered renewables(renewables backed up with grid storage, backup power, etc)...


kublikhan wrote:Jul 22, 2022- the grid is getting less reliable every day with a growing threat of blackouts:
In a dire new assessment, the North American Electric Reliability Corp. (NERC) described regions of the country pushed closer than ever toward energy emergencies by a combination of climate change impacts and a transition from traditional fossil fuel generators to carbon-free renewable power. “It’s a very sobering report. It’s clear the risks are spreading.” NERC’s analysis examined the potential punch of extreme weather, which may wreak havoc on everything from reduced hydropower to transmission lines brought down by wildfires. Grid operators are dealing with an increasing reliance on intermittent resources like wind and solar as coal units retire and the reliability and emissions of gas resources comes under scrutiny.
Grid monitor warns of U.S. blackouts in ‘sobering report’


kublikhan wrote:Global [coal] demand reached an all-time high in 2022. Consumption rose strongly in India (10%) and in Europe (5%) in response to electricity generating facilities substituting away from natural gas and filling the supply gap created by weaker production from other sources, including nuclear and hydro. Consumption in China rose modestly, as economic growth remained sluggish due to COVID-19 restrictions. On the other hand, coal consumption in the United States decreased by 8% in 2022Q4 due to less significant natural gas price increases compared to Europe. This limited the substitution between coal and gas for electricity generation in the U.S.


kublikhan wrote:
cephalotus wrote:All nuclear power plants have been shut down by now and this happend with no issues. Germany has still been a significant electricity exporter in 2022 both by kWh and by Euro. No energy shortages during winter.
Apr 18, 2023 - I don't think it's quite that rosy. The government decided to funnel $300 billion in emergency funding to households and businesses just to keep the lights on. Not to mention the fact that Germany turned back to coal in it's hour of need.

The supposedly evil energy source saves the day in Europe. Germany did itself and Europe a favor by managing to avert an energy-shortage recession this winter, and now we know how they did it: supposedly evil coal. Data released Thursday show coal’s role in electricity generation growing in Germany for the second year running.
Coal Keeps Germany’s Lights On

Germany is set to boost its reliance on coal as it battles an unprecedented energy crisis — even at the expense of its ambitious climate goals. Europe’s largest economy is burning the fossil fuel for electricity at the fastest pace in at least six years. Across the globe, highly polluting — and relatively cheap — coal is making a comeback as countries seek to prevent soaring energy costs from triggering an economic meltdown. Germany now generates more than a third of its electricity from coal-fired power plants.

“Coal is coming back as a baseload generator. We think it will be less seasonal than it has been – with more coal-burning in summer, spring and autumn, as long as coal remains so much in the money versus gas and there remains a gas shortage.” At times this month, German electricity became as polluting as power produced in South Africa and India, after lower wind speeds curbed renewable generation and coal consumption spiked.
Germany Revives Coal as Energy Security Trumps Climate Goals
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby mousepad » Sun 08 Oct 2023, 19:13:43

kublikhan wrote:Well just incase you want to show that you can act like an adult and stop with this petty crap,

Never. I like picking on you. :-)
kublikhan wrote: ...more expensive energy,

kublikhan wrote:the grid is getting less reliable every day

kublikhan wrote:Global [coal] demand reached an all-time high in 2022.

kublikhan wrote:
Germany is set to boost its reliance on coal as it battles an unprecedented energy crisis

“Coal is coming back as a baseload generator.


kublikhan wrote:This is exactly the kind of binary thinking I have come to expect from you

I don't get it. First you go binary on me shutting down any doubt I have about renewable with tons of studies on how great renewables are. And now as it turns out I was right with my doubts, you still claim you're right all along? Are you a politician?

You know what that means right? Them rosy university studies might actually be WRONG. They might be BIASED towards rose coloring renewable.

kublikhan wrote:I an not a renewable hater like you

I have solar panels on my roof and heat the house with self cut wood. How do you power your life?
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sun 08 Oct 2023, 19:45:52

mousepad wrote:I have solar panels on my roof and heat the house with self cut wood. How do you power your life?


Me too. Solar is great, except after 5pm, 3pm in winter. Oh and on those cloudy days too when output drops from 10kVA to 1.5kVA. And I'm in Australia's "Sunshine state!" I couldn't even imagine how it must be way up north in Germany.
I use wood in Winter, I buy it cut, split and seasoned. It's cheaper too because it warms the whole house, all night. My A/C split systems pull 2000W and only heats half the house, and they have no 'coals' in them so when you turn them off it's frigid again in half an hour.

The German's use a lot of wood in their "renewable basket". Woodchip, imported from America on oil powered ships. It's all bullshit. All of it.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 08 Oct 2023, 22:39:09

mousepad wrote:I don't get it. First you go binary on me shutting down any doubt I have about renewable with tons of studies on how great renewables are.
You are still butthurt over that post from 2 years ago? The one where I pointed out your sources were from lobby groups trying to shut down renewable energy?

mousepad wrote:And now as it turns out I was right with my doubts, you still claim you're right all along? Are you a politician?
I can on the one had point out that you were wrong about a post you made, and on the other hand not be a blind fanboy for renewable energy.

mousepad wrote:You know what that means right? Them rosy university studies might actually be WRONG. They might be BIASED towards rose coloring renewable.
LOL! I was right! You are still butthurt from that post I made two years ago talking about your biased sources. Wow, Let it go man.

mousepad wrote:Never. I like picking on you.
Ok, have fun with that.
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Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 09 Oct 2023, 10:53:33

kublikhan wrote:You are still butthurt over that post from 2 years ago?


Has been already 2 years? How time flies, crazy. I was still young and full of hope that renewables will save the world. How sad to see ones dreams and hopes being crushed like this.

But no sweat. We simply bet on the next trick pony, won't we? Fusion !! That for sure will save the world, won't it kublikhan?
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