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THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Suadi oil Infrastructure atacks

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 05:29:15

Ibon wrote:Dont forget one of the largest sources of slack, all that discretionary use of energy that serves no utility beyond indulgence.


Very true. Also do not underestimate the ways in which it can be continued for a tiny fraction of the footprint.

Take happy motoring for instance. If a sports car were built with the design principles and efficiency of a velomobile, you'd be looking at an analogous level of utility regarding single person transport while commuting for greatly reduced manufacturing cost and energy usage when compared to a normal economy car. One could even indulge themselves and race such a vehicle around at dangerous levels of speed well into the triple digit mph range, and still use only a tiny fraction of the energy of a small hatchback doing mundane A to B driving at the speed limit.

This principle doesn't just apply to vehicles. There's wasting of resources all around us, but the products people consume are often designed with waste, disposability, and obsolescence built into their expected mundane use cases, as opposed to efficiency, recyclability, and relative permanence. After all, the goal of those promoting endless growth is consumption, often for its own sake, and building products to reduce their resource footprint goes against that, and advertisers are a thing in order to convince people they need to consume more.

All of this resource waste built into the consumption paradigm is going to induce a whole lot more needless suffering.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Suadi oil Infrastructure atacks

Unread postby Cog » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 06:27:59

Is there any facet of life that the left doesn't want to control either through taxes, shame, manipulation of public opinion, or just outright deception? I can't think of one off hand.
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Re: Suadi oil Infrastructure atacks

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:57:23

The_Toecutter wrote:As much as I despise Trump, firing John Bolton was the best thing he did.


Why did he hire him in the first place? You can't just cherry pick his good decisions. It's like the broken clock being right twice a day.

The_Toecutter wrote:To his credit, Trump is the only president since Jimmy Carter who has not yet started any new wars of aggression.


He's doing a good job of tearing the US apart internally, though.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Suadi oil Infrastructure atacks

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:18:28

Trump, like all Presidents has his good and bad. So far he has not gotten us into additional foreign conflicts and that’s a good thing. Also he has supported Israel whereas Obama was very anti-Israel. A strong Israel works as a counter balance to the various factions in the ME whereas being very weak on Israel almost encourages its attack, which would surely bring us into a major conflict.

I could also list many things where I think he is very, very wrong. As someone above said, you have to take the good with the bad.
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Re: Suadi oil Infrastructure atacks

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:22:34

Ibon wrote:Dont forget one of the largest sources of slack, all that discretionary use of energy that serves no utility beyond indulgence.


Indeed, at$2.50/gal average I am far more likely to make an extra trip to town for something I forgot than I am at $4.50/gal when I make my trips as unitary as possible with a loop and multiple stops to avoid repeats.
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Re: Suadi oil Infrastructure atacks

Unread postby Cog » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 13:21:44

asg70 wrote:
The_Toecutter wrote:As much as I despise Trump, firing John Bolton was the best thing he did.


Why did he hire him in the first place? You can't just cherry pick his good decisions. It's like the broken clock being right twice a day.

The_Toecutter wrote:To his credit, Trump is the only president since Jimmy Carter who has not yet started any new wars of aggression.


He's doing a good job of tearing the US apart internally, though.


Describe this "tearing the US apart internally". Take as much space as you need to. Enlighten the group here on your profound insights.
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Re: Suadi oil Infrastructure atacks

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 15:17:48

Revi wrote:A friend said that maybe the reason that the price of oil hasn't gone up is that traders think the US can take up the slack with our fracked oil. The Saudis are buying oil to fill their orders. Will the market continue to believe that it's all fine?

So the fact that, per the MSM, the net result isn't that big a deal doesn't explain the oil price behavior re the markets?

The price of oil DID go up significantly, but briefly. And it still hasn't returned to pre-attack levels, even with today's 2+ percent drop (likely reflecting overall economic concerns re the trade war), even as the magnitude of the "problem" looks less and less likely to be meaningful, much less serious.

If you just make stuff up instead of stating market conditions at all accurately, and ignore the fact that oil production is supposed to more or less return to normal by October, no wonder you act surprised when the oil markets look at real world data, and don't act as you'd expect.

Where is your proof that oil prices should be going up? Wishful thinking isn't proof, BTW.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Suadi oil Infrastructure atacks

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 15:24:13

Ibon wrote:Dont forget one of the largest sources of slack, all that discretionary use of energy that serves no utility beyond indulgence.

Which is the number one common-sense logical reason (or informal proof, even) that the idea that society will face "collapse" or even serious hardship in the short to intermediate term if the price of oil should rise moderately for a time is just nonsense (or fast crash doomer wishful thinking). Same thing re hitting "peak", and having a little less available supply (which would almost certainly result in higher prices as well).

The frequent claims by various fast crash doomers that $80 or $100 oil will crash or ruin the economy are just hilarious. If we hadn't recently HAD nearly $100 oil on average for FOUR YEARS, and seen little real problems with the global and US economies it would be one thing. But we did.

Living through three oil price "crises" in the 70's demonstrated quite clearly that when push comes to shove -- people can and will drive a lot less if necessary. It's inconvenient, but far, far from doom.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 15:48:32

Resetting the U.S. Relationship with Saudi Arabia

Brookings scholar Bruce Riedel on how America's oldest alliance in the Middle East is being tested and what to do about it.

The U.S. relationship with Saudi Arabia has rested for decades on an unwritten agreement that benefited both sides: The United States provides security and access to global markets, while the Saudis ensure that the oil keeps flowing. But the rise of the United States as a leading energy producer and the increasing recklessness of Saudi Arabia under the leadership of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman are forcing a rethinking of that contract.

In the first episode of our new podcast, And Now the Hard Part, we tackle the question: How can Washington reset its relationship with Riyadh?

And Now the Hard Part is a partnership between Foreign Policy and the Brookings Institution. Each week, we look at one vexing problem in the world, trace its origin, and then offer a way forward. Our host is Foreign Policy’s editor in chief, Jonathan Tepperman, and the guests are some of the smartest analysts around—all scholars at the Brookings Institution.

“The track record of Mohammed bin Salman is one reckless bad decision after another,” says Bruce Riedel, a senior fellow at Brookings and our guest this week. “[He] has engaged in a series of foreign adventures, most notably in Yemen, that have not enhanced Saudi security, not enhanced American security—rather, have probably detracted from both and created the worst humanitarian disaster in the world today in Yemen.”

Hear the episode on this page or subscribe and download wherever you get your podcasts.

About And Now The Hard Part: The world is a particularly confusing and daunting place these days: Russian bots, North Korean nukes, trade wars and climate emergencies. To understand it better, Foreign Policy and the Brookings Institution are teaming up for an 8-part podcast series. On each episode, host Jonathan Tepperman and a guest from Brookings discuss one of the world’s most vexing problems and trace its origins. And then, the hard part: Tepperman asks the guest to focus on plausible, actionable ways forward. Jonathan Tepperman, Foreign Policy’s editor in chief, hosts the podcast. The guests are some of the smartest and most experienced analysts around—all scholars from the Brookings Institution, including former government and intelligence officials.


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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 15:50:44

EU nations lead condemnation of Saudi human rights record

Statement read out at UN human rights council meeting denounces alleged use of torture and unlawful detentions

Saudi Arabia’s human rights record has been heavily censured by two dozen largely western countries who took aim at its worsening record for alleged use of torture, unlawful detentions and unfair trials of critics, including female activists and journalists.

The joint statement, which was read out at a meeting of the UN’s Human Rights Council in Geneva, represents the second time in six months that the body has criticised the kingdom, following a similar statement in March.

Members urged Saudi authorities to establish the truth about the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi at the Istanbul consulate last October, and ensure that the perpetrators are held to account.

Leading the criticism were 15 European Union members, including Britain and Germany, who were among the signatories, as well as Canada, New Zealand and Peru.

There was no immediate response by the Saudi delegation, which is among the council’s 47 member states but whose seat was empty. The Saudi ambassador left the room about an hour before to host his country’s national day reception.

The kingdom has regularly denied allegations of torture and unfair detention.

Among those who addressed the Human Rights Council meeting was Lina al-Hathloul, whose sister – the Saudi women’s activist Loujain al-Hathloul – was arrested last year and allegedly tortured, and whose release she called for.

Loujain al-Hathloul was among about a dozen prominent activists who were arrested in May 2018 in the weeks before a ban on women driving cars in the conservative kingdom was lifted, apparently as a sop to hardline conservative elements in the kingdom, who opposed the lifting of the driving ban.

In an address to the council, al-Hathloul raised the detention of her sister and other female activists.

“Loujain was imprisoned for promoting the implementation of the Vienna declaration of human rights which affirms the full and equal enjoyment by women of all human rights.

“Loujain did not get to drive in her home town of Riyadh because she was arrested right before the Saudi government lifted the driving ban for women.”

She added that her sister had been labelled a “traitor” for her women’s rights activism. “They tortured her and then attempted to trade her freedom in exchange for her publicly denying [her] torture.”

Human rights organisations have, however, documented widespread use of torture in extracting confessions, including from individuals subsequently executed for participating in protests when they were minors.

The focus on Saudi Arabia’s human rights record has intensified since the murder of Khashoggi, which has been widely blamed on the country’s de facto ruler, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

Agnes Callamard, the UN expert on extrajudicial executions worldwide, said in a report last June that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and other senior officials should be investigated over Khashoggi’s murder given what she called credible evidence against them.

Although the joint statement acknowledged Saudi reforms, including the announcement last month that restrictions on the rights of women to travel will be lifted, it said deep concerns remained.

“However, we remain deeply concerned at the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia. Civil society actors in Saudi Arabia still face persecution and intimidation,” Australia’s ambassador Sally Mansfield said, reading out the statement.

“We are concerned at reports of torture, arbitrary detention, enforced disappearances, unfair trials and harassment of individuals engaged in promoting and defending human rights, their families and colleagues,” she said.


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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 15:55:49

Saudi Arabia: Between religion, oil dependence and reforms | DW | 24.09.2019 Deutsche Welle (www.dw.com)

An expert on Saudi Arabia and the Middle East, Guido Steinberg explains to DW that the drone attacks on Saudi oil facilities last week were partly a manifestation of complex religious and historical forces.

As Saudi Arabia and its close allies, including the US, look for an appropriate response to drone strikes on Saudi oil facilities in early September, what expert Guido Steinberg calls a Gulf cold war is becoming a hot war. But what are the deeper historical and religious forces that have put Saudi Arabia at the fulcrum of heightened tensions in the Gulf?

Steinberg, a senior associate for the Middle East division of the German Institute for International and Security Affairs, is synthesizing some of his decades of study on Saudi Arabia into a new book — working title: Cold War in the Gulf. An attempt to understand impenetrable Saudi power structures, Steinberg explores the country's 250-year history via three key themes: Wahhabi religious scholarship, oil, and the Saudi ruling family.

Understanding the nexus between oil, religion and the Saudi ruling family might help explain escalating tensions in the region

Religious scholars lose dominance

It is perhaps not widely known that the extremist ideology of the Islamic State was greatly inspired by the radical Wahhabi teachings that emerged from Saudi Arabia — including hatred of Shiite Muslims and the destruction of their tombs. Saudi Arabia is the nation where Mecca is located and also where Al Qaeda was born.

"Many IS leaders and many of the preachers who have promoted ISIS in Europe studied at the Islamic University of Medina, the Wahhabi Mission Center," Steinberg told DW. Islamic propagandists have increasingly promoted Wahhabism, and its purist offshoot, Salafism, as the one true form of Islam.

"Today, many Turkish Muslims in Germany believe that Islam means going to the mosque five times a day, and many parts of the doctrine that originated in Saudi Arabia are suddenly seen as belonging to the mainstream," Steinberg said. Such a doctrinaire form of Islam is often incompatible with other religious minorities or with broader secular society.

But after Saudi Arabia began producing oil in 1938 and eventually became the world's largest oil exporter, the once monolithic power of the Wahhabi scholars was gradually challenged.

Islam's holiest shrine is located in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, a nation that has become a stronghold for extremist Wahhabi ideas

The burning issue

Following the 1973 OPEC oil crisis, crude prices rose sharply and Saudi Arabia, now extremely wealthy, underwent rapid modernization. At the same time, "the geopolitical focus shifted after 1973 from Cairo to Dubai, Riyadh and Abu Dhabi," said Steinberg.

But radical Wahhabi scholars rebelled against the introduction of modern infrastructure and culture, and in 1979 and demanded a return to the old society. They wanted mud huts instead of skyscrapers. The tension continued as the price of oil dropped in the 90s and the Saudi Arabian economy almost collapsed. Saudis could no longer finance their households, and their oil-generated benefits had to cease. It was one of the reasons for the emergence of Al-Qaeda, Steinberg said.

Nonetheless, Saudi Arabia's dependence on oil is unbroken until today. The Saudi state receives 90% of its income from the state-owned Saudi-Aramco, the world's largest oil-producing group. Such reliance makes the Gulf nation extremely vulnerable to oil price fluctuations. Reforms are needed in the long term, as is recognized by Saudi Arabia's new strongman, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.


Hit hard by sinking oil prices
A great, big hangover

Even Norway isn't immune to the falling price of oil. For years, the wealthy Scandinavian nation had fueled its rapid growth with the oil it pumped out of the North Sea. But what once transformed a poor agrarian state into one of the richest countries in the world now has policymakers wondering if it wouldn't be wiser to allocate more resources to Norway's fishing industry.


The ruling family

Central to the question of reform is gauging the actual power of the comparatively young Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. "The character of Saudi Arabian authoritarianism has changed," said Steinberg. "An oligarchy dominated the country between the 1970s and 2015. Today, you only need to know two people who can make decisions."

The Middle East expert is referring to the autocratic duo King Salman (Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud) of Saudi Arabia, born in 1936 and currently suffering from ill health; and the active head of the Saudi government, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, born in 1985.

"After the Khashoggi murder, there was a brief hope that [their power] would be weakened," said Steinberg, referring to the murder of the US-based Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul in October, 2018. "But that does not seem to be the case."

According to Steinberg, reforms and authoritarianism are no contradiction for bin Salman. "A few years ago in Saudi Arabia, it was easy to criticize government policy. There were two taboos: religion and rulers. You could happily have constructive policy discussions. Today, you have to expect that you will land in prison for very, very weak criticism."

Can Mohammed bin Salman still succeed as a reformer?

And yet Salman may still be seen as a source of hope for the younger Saudi generation, even after the Khashoggi murder that his government allegedly ordered.

Steinberg said that the current regime has been willing to liberalize some aspects of Saudi society, including allowing women to drive cars, and to travel without the permission of a male guardian such as father or husband. Such reforms "give him support," Steinberg said of a leader who is said to be slowly breaking down an ossified system. "I believe that he really has the chance to become a great reformer, if he is economically successful," Steinberg added.

And Iran?

While Germany, Britain and France agreed this week that Iran was behind the attack on Saudi oil facilities in early September and called on Tehran to avoid further "provocation," Steinberg is unwilling to apportion blame. Instead, he has tried to understand how the situation has presented itself from the perspective of many cosmopolitan Saudis.

According to Steinberg, these Saudis have complained that the Iranians were now ruling four capitals: Baghdad, where Iranian influence is very strong; the Syrian capital Damascus, where Iranian militias have kept Bashar al-Assad in power; Beirut, which is controlled by Iranian-backed Hezbollah; and Saana in Yemen.

Paradoxically, Iranian influence has increased dramatically as a result of US intervention in Iraq, with the ousting of Saddam Hussein having destabilized the region.

"On the other hand, we see new alliances that we have not thought possible," Steinberg noted. "Saudi Arabia and Israel have a nearly identical Iranian policy."

Guido Steinberg is senior associate and member of the Middle East and Africa Research Group at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs. From 2001 to 2005 he worked as an expert on international terrorism in the German Federal Chancellery. He talked about Saudi Arabia as part of the International Literature Festival Berlin.

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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 24 Sep 2019, 16:29:08

Members urged Saudi authorities to establish the truth about the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi at the Istanbul consulate last October, and ensure that the perpetrators are held to account.


Are we so different here? Try this one on.

“Urge USA officials to establish the truth about the death of Jeffery Epstein and ensure the perpetrators are caught.”

He was NOT seen by a psychologist but an unpaid intern.
No one has seen the video from outside his cell.
AFAIK no journalist are pressing for this information to be made public.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby Zarquon » Tue 26 Nov 2019, 21:33:20

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Hell, they could pay some group of militants to do the strikes, with high-fives all around when the oil price trends higher.

I'm NOT claiming this is the case, although given the financial sums over time, I don't completely discount the possibility of such shenanigans either.

But at least if we're going to go conspiracy theory lore -- let's go with theories that at least make some sense, IMO.


What about the theory that US sanctions are, of course, all about Iranian nukes - but they also conveniently keep 2 million bpd of crude off the market? Bah, coincidence doesn't prove causality.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 04 Aug 2020, 11:57:36

U.S. expands charges against ex-Twitter employees accused of spying for Saudi Arabia

This story originally appeared on CBSNews.com's sister site, ZDNet.com.

Fresh off dismissing spying charges against two former Twitter employees and another individual on Tuesday, the U.S. government has unfurled a new superseding indictment that accuses the three individuals of even more offenses.

The two former Twitter employees, Ahmad Abouammo and Ali Alzabarah, and the third person named Ahmed Almutairi were originally charged with fraudulently accessing private information and acting as illegal agents of a foreign government for allegedly spying on Twitter users critical of the Saudi royal family.

This time around, the individuals have been charged with seven offenses instead of two. The charges include acting as an agent for a foreign government without notice to the attorney general; conspiracy to commit wire fraud; wire fraud; money laundering; destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in federal investigations; aiding and abetting; and criminal forfeiture.

The factual accusations made by the U.S. government are largely the same when compared to the original complaint, with the two former Twitter employees still being accused of using their company privileges to provide non-public information of Twitter accounts to the Saudi government and royal family.

The original complaint had claimed that the two former Twitter employees accessed information such as telephone numbers, recent IP address information, devices used, user-provided biographical information, logs containing a user's browser information, and a complete log of a user's actions on Twitter without authorization or consent.

In the new indictment, the U.S. government provides more detail on whose information was allegedly taken. According to the new indictment, Abouammo and Alzabarah accessed information on the accounts of journalists, celebrities, and public interest and branded organisations in the Middle East.

20 Saudi suspects go on trial for Jamal Khashoggi murder

The new indictment also accuses Saudi officials of paying Abouammo at least $200,000, via wire transfer to a shell company and a bank account in Lebanon. It is also alleged that he was given a watch valued around $20,000. The amount stated in the original complaint was around $300,000.

The U.S. government is also accusing Abouammo of lying to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) about the money he received, the watch, and communications with Saudi officials. Abouammo allegedly lied to the FBI by not reporting the watch and provided a falsified, backdated receipt that showed a $100,000 payment from Saudi officials, which he said was provided in exchange for media consulting services.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-charges ... al-family/
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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby Subjectivist » Thu 14 Jan 2021, 21:56:12

Saudi Prince announces plan for the "city of the future" they have named "The Line" in this short Youtube video. The subtitles are a little hard to read but the second half is the English language promo for the project. I do find it interesting that the Jeddah Tower planned to be the worlds tallest man-made structure has been on hold for a couple years and now they are jumping to this project without finishing the Jeddah first?

https://youtu.be/eXEnS-u3fAY
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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 14 Mar 2022, 01:43:04

Saudi Arabia executes a record 81 people in a single day


Saudi Arabia executed 81 men on Saturday.
The executed were convicted of terrorism, murder, kidnapping, torture, and rape said reports.
Saudi Arabia's death penalty policies have been condemned as "an abhorrent and inhuman punishment."

Saudi Arabia executed a record 81 people in a single day on Saturday.

Reports say it is Saudi Arabia's largest mass execution in modern history. It tops the execution of 63 militants following the worst-ever terrorist attack on the Grand Mosque in Mecca in 1979.

The state-run Saudi Press Agency announced the executions on March 12, saying that "The aforementioned individuals were arrested, tried in Saudi courts, through trials overseen by a total of 13 judges over 3 separate stages of trial for each individual."

It added: "Crimes committed by these individuals also include pledging allegiance to foreign terrorist organizations, such as ISIS [ISIL], al-Qaeda, and the Houthis."

According to the Saudi Interior Ministry, most of those executed were Saudis, the Wall Street Journal report.

They also note that more than half were from the minority Shiite Muslim population, seven of the dead were Yemeni nationals, and one was Syrian.

However, the Journal reports that the interior ministry did not disclose the methods of execution, which have in the past included beheading by sword.

It is unclear what caused these executions to occur on Saturday specifically, although they come as most of the world looks to Ukraine and Russia.

Death sentences can be handed out for a wide variety of nonviolent offenses in Saudi Arabia, "including apostasy, sorcery, and adultery," the US State Department noted in a 2019 assessment of the country's human rights record.

"The death penalty is an abhorrent and inhuman punishment. There is no credible evidence that it deters crime more than prisons terms," Clare Algar, Amnesty International's Senior Director for Research, Advocacy and Policy, said when commenting on the executions that occurred in 2019.

In 2021 the kingdom performed 67 executions in all of 2021 and 27 in 2020, according to The Guardian.

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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 14 Mar 2022, 13:29:58

I wonder how many of those were actually just political opponents of the royal family?
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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby Doly » Mon 14 Mar 2022, 17:19:34

I do find it interesting that the Jeddah Tower planned to be the worlds tallest man-made structure has been on hold for a couple years and now they are jumping to this project without finishing the Jeddah first?


Especially considering that Jeddah would be a major landmark whatever happens.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby careinke » Tue 15 Mar 2022, 03:18:58

vtsnowedin wrote:I wonder how many of those were actually just political opponents of the royal family?


This made me laugh. There are no political opponents in the KSA, it's a KINGDOM. The only elections they have are for minor advisory positions. It is not a democracy.

Enemies yes, political opponents no.

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Re: THE Saudi Arabia Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 15 Mar 2022, 08:08:38

careinke wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:I wonder how many of those were actually just political opponents of the royal family?


This made me laugh. There are no political opponents in the KSA, it's a KINGDOM. The only elections they have are for minor advisory positions. It is not a democracy.

Enemies yes, political opponents no.

Peace

Even kings have opponents (often family members) and the running of the governments bureaucracy is politics in a different form then ours but political nonetheless.
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