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Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 13:46:05

But try to implement anything REMOTELY IN THE BALLPARK of those sorts of CO2 reduction lifestyle changes for the masses "so concerned" about AGW, and you'd have politicians thrown out of office all over the place, and no end of protests. You'd have massive screeching at a level that would make Bernie Sanders and Liz Warren appear as droll as Willam F. Buckley Jr.


It's funny how the "Think global, Act local" groups got a fair bit of bipartisan support in the seventies when it first became popular. It wasn't a liberal call to arms and certainly wasn't demonized by conservatives. Now it is more the left blaming the right (and of course the people who are wealthy unless they are a movie star) in a "do what I say, not what I do" approach and the right saying "I'm not doing any of that crap given it comes from the left".
Seems time that a lot of people (including many on this site) pulled their collective heads out of their backsides.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 13:54:23

jed wrote: "... we know who the denier class it. That's all."

Nicely put.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Pops » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 14:39:56

rockdoc123 wrote:It's funny how the "Think global, Act local" groups got a fair bit of bipartisan support in the seventies when it first became popular. It wasn't a liberal call to arms and certainly wasn't demonized by conservatives. Now it is more the left blaming the right (and of course the people who are wealthy unless they are a movie star) in a "do what I say, not what I do" approach and the right saying "I'm not doing any of that crap given it comes from the left".
Seems time that a lot of people (including many on this site) pulled their collective heads out of their backsides.

So it is the fault of the left that politicians on the right were bought by corporations at the dawn of the environmental movement? That they were paid handsomely to convince their constituents that pollution = freedom and environmentalism = political correctness and profit = godliness?
You prove my point. You give the right no blame for the harm they do in carrying the polluters dirty water and put all the blame on the left for hurting the feelings of the polluters and their paid political representatives and by extension the constituents that bought the story.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 15:17:58

You prove my point. You give the right no blame for the harm they do in carrying the polluters dirty water and put all the blame on the left for hurting the feelings of the polluters and their paid political representatives and by extension the constituents that bought the story.


Again, very well put.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 15:56:05

So it is the fault of the left that politicians on the right were bought by corporations at the dawn of the environmental movement? That they were paid handsomely to convince their constituents that pollution = freedom and environmentalism = political correctness and profit = godliness?


yeah right. Please provide proof of that all happening. What a complete load of bollicks. Neither the democrats nor the conservatives can make any claim to being the one responsible for environmental woes nor can they claim the high ground.

You prove my point. You give the right no blame for the harm they do in carrying the polluters dirty water and put all the blame on the left for hurting the feelings of the polluters and their paid political representatives and by extension the constituents that bought the story.


not what I said is it? Not even close. What I said is that there was a time when acting local (i.e. cleaning up your own mess and living responsibly) was a non-partisan movement. But that has now become a partisan issue such that the left want to blame everyone else and take zero responsibility for their own behaviors and the right refuse to take responsibility for their own behaviors simply because they don't want to do something that would justify any claims made by the left. Neither side is right, you certainly aren't.

But you did a good job of demonstrating my point by blaming corporations and conservatives and taking zero responsibility yourself.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Pops » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 16:27:19

rockdoc123 wrote:yeah right. Please provide proof

Not worth the time doc. You know as well as I that you can't be convinced with mere proof. It's not a logical position you hold, it is a philosophical, moral one. You and the right are the responsible ones and libs are something less.

not what I said is it? Not even close. What I said is that there was a time when acting local (i.e. cleaning up your own mess and living responsibly) was a non-partisan movement.

No. LOL, thats the silliest thing you've come up with, I usually have some respect for your arguments but that's a wowzer.

There was never a time when people cleaned up their own mess, are you joking? Ever hear of Love Canal? Hanford WA? Picher OK? Any of the 1300+ superfund sites, not to mention 500k abandoned mines and 1.93 million abandoned oil/gas wells in 1975 — in the US alone!

Yeahbutt Whaddabout has become a great device of the right to deflect, defend and gaslight. It is trumps go-to lie. Congrats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandoned_mine
https://www.fractracker.org/2019/03/fai ... ned-wells/
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 17:58:18

It's not a logical position you hold, it is a philosophical, moral one. You and the right are the responsible ones and libs are something less.


that's a laugh....the pot calling the kettle black. Did I say the right was responsible? Has literacy left you in old age? Didn't happen to me so I feel sorry for you.

No. LOL, thats the silliest thing you've come up with, I usually have some respect for your arguments but that's a wowzer.

There was never a time when people cleaned up their own mess, are you joking? Ever hear of Love Canal? Hanford WA? Picher OK? Any of the 1300+ superfund sites, not to mention 500k abandoned mines and 1.93 million abandoned oil/gas wells in 1975 — in the US alone!


My point above is that by individuals taking responsibility for their own actions in the areas over which they have influence, there is a lot that can be accomplished. That isn't the case when you take zero responsibility and blame corporations, governments etc for all of your woes. And whether you admit it or not that sort of sanctimonious BS comes from the left far more often than the right.

As to your point about environmental damages over the years, yes there were historical problems...which is why rules were put in place. There have been little in the way of new superfund sites identified in the past couple of decades which suggests said rules are now working. And as to abandoned mine sites....are you suggesting mine owners just walked away from all of those mines without doing what was required via reclamation ...if so I would say BS. And an "abandoned" well is not a well that was produced and then just left..the operator would have cemented off the producing zone, placed a number of cement plugs in the well bore (casing, liner or open hole) and would have cemented off the surface casing and put in place some form of wellhead or cap. The percentage of those non-producing wells which eventually leaked at a later date are small and generally are relatively easy to repair. But go ahead, fill your diapirs about all this bad stuff that someone else did to make your life worse.

Do you actually think any of these companies would be producing what goods they do if it weren't for people who want to buy them, in fact demand they keep producing them? If you want to make a difference then stop buying all products made by energy supplied in some manner by fossil fuels. Stop buying any products that make use of the chemicals that one company or another spilled somewhere a few decades ago. Stop driving anywhere, stop buying canned goods, buy your vegetables from market farms where they only hand plant and use hand tools to harvest. Blaming big corporations and the right for all the worlds woes whether it be a climate change or peak oil or energy depletion or whatever while still taking part in the whole consumer experience and demanding that those items be available is the height of hypocrisy.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 18:20:46

rockdoc123 wrote:As to your point about environmental damages over the years, yes there were historical problems...which is why rules were put in place. There have been little in the way of new superfund sites identified in the past couple of decades which suggests said rules are now working.
I think those rules could use a little tightening.

Sep 25, 2019 - A wave of oil and gas wells abandoned by bankrupted drillers could cost the U.S. government hundreds of millions of dollars. A new report from the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) studied oil and gas wells drilled on federal lands, and found that the public could get stuck with a significant tab from companies that go out of business.

This may seem like a rather arcane problem, but it is significant for two reasons. First, the number of shale wells have proliferated in recent years, drilled at ever-increasing depths, which makes reclamation pricier. Second, the shale industry is indebted and the financial foundation could begin to crumble, leaving a growing mountain of orphaned wells for the government as companies go out of business. Already more than 190 shale E&Ps have gone bankrupt since 2015.

It is because of this heightened financial stress that concerns over a wave of orphaned wells are rising. As E&E News notes, New Mexico requires a bond of $250,000 for companies with over 100 wells, which only translates into $2,500 per well at best, a paltry figure compared to reclamation costs.

Ultimately, if the full cost of reclamation was required upfront, there could be a lot less drilling.

The GAO report came at the request of Rep. Raul Grijalva (D-NM) and Rep. Alan Lowenthal (D-CA), both of which come from states with abandoned wells. “The oil and gas industry’s boom-and-bust cycles can lead operators to drill wells when prices for oil and gas are high but can contribute to bankruptcies when prices are low,” the GAO wrote in a letter to the congressmen that accompanied the report.

GAO recommended the U.S. Congress grant BLM the authority to obtain funds from drillers to reclaim orphaned wells while also requiring the agency to develop a mechanism to do so. It also said that BLM should hike bond rates to reflect actual costs of cleanup.
You’re Footing The Bill For Bankrupt Shale Drillers

rockdoc123 wrote:And as to abandoned mine sites....are you suggesting mine owners just walked away from all of those mines without doing what was required via reclamation ...if so I would say BS.
Did you read about what was going on during the recent bankruptcies of mining companies? Companies split off their profitable mines into ongoing enterprises, their unprofitable mines with heavy liabilities into separate companies, then watched the companies with the reclamation liabilities go bankrupt again. Thus they effectively skirted their responsibilities under the law.

As the coal industry has declined over the last decade, companies have used loopholes in SMCRA to avoid reclamation obligations, and some state agencies have not adequately enforced the law. Alpha and other companies dumped unproductive mines and responsibilities on companies that bought them after bankruptcy, postponing cleanup for months, years, or even decades. Many of the mines at stake in Blackjewel’s bankruptcy produce little coal, are lying idle, or are in various stages of reclamation.

Advocates, industry experts, and former regulators say this cycle — mine, declare bankruptcy, and sell — threatens the system designed to ensure mines are reclaimed, and that central Appalachia could see a new round of mine abandonment that could cause more environmental, economic, and health problems.

“There are parts of West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Kentucky — the state with the most abandoned mine lands in the country — that were mined 50, 100, 150 years ago, and still have not been reclaimed”

Barren, gray ridges mark the only remains of many mountaintops along the Kentucky and Virginia state line near where miners are protesting. Revelation holds mining permits on much of this land, which sit in various states of mining and reclamation. They’re part of the roughly 2,278 square miles of surface-mined land in central Appalachia. According to a 2015 study, only about half have been reclaimed.

Between 2012 and 2017, four of the U.S.’s largest coal companies — Alpha, Arch Coal, Patriot Coal, and Peabody Energy — filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy and left nearly $5.2 billion owed for miner benefits and requirements to restore mined land, according to a study in the Stanford Law Review. The companies used several techniques to get out of paying: they rejected health care and pension obligations, passed regulatory liabilities to successor companies, and when those companies liquidated, abandoned them altogether.
Blackjewel left coal miners without pay. Now it might leave Appalachia thousands of acres of land to clean up.


“We have seen too many coal companies file for bankruptcy and break their promise to clean up mine sites after they’ve made their profits, leaving the American people on the hook for funding these important reclamation efforts. We can’t allow these dangerous practices to continue.”

Between 2015 and 2016, the country’s three largest coal companies (Alpha Natural Resources, Arch Coal, and Peabody Energy) filed for bankruptcy, leaving $2.3 billion in outstanding self-bonds. This summer, Revelation Energy and Blackjewel filed for bankruptcy, putting nearly 1,700 miners out of work, leaving the fate of thousands of acres of mines hanging in the balance, and likely costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars in outstanding reclamation costs.
CARTWRIGHT, DINGELL INTRODUCE BILL TO PROTECT AMERICAN TAXPAYERS, CLEAN UP COAL MINES
The oil barrel is half-full.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 19:38:47

Did you read about what was going on during the recent bankruptcies of mining companies?


and what percentage of all mines that have been abandoned does that make up? I could easily point to numerous open pit or room and pillar developments that have been completely reclaimed after abandonment...by the owner. Same goes for the thousands of wells abandoned each year, are they all orphans? Is that what you would have us believe? Cause it ain't true, not even close.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 21:03:42

rockdoc123 wrote:and what percentage of all mines that have been abandoned does that make up?
In all of history? Almost all of them. Don't forget it used to be business as usual to just pack up and leave once the mine was no longer profitable:

Here are the numbers: There are roughly 500,000 abandoned mines across the country.

A New Endgame
These days, before a coal mine commences operations, a plan is created for its eventual shutdown—even if that may be decades down the road. Mining companies have to figure out how they will dispose of leftover waste and complete a full cleanup, but this wasn’t always the case.

While some states started regulating the coal industry in the 1930s and 1940s, the federal government didn’t begin regulating active coal mining until 1977. At that time, Congress passed the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act to address concerns about the environmental effects of roughly two centuries of mining in the United States.

It used to be that businesses would simply pack up and leave when mines were no longer productive, forcing the surrounding community to deal with the negative repercussions on water resources and the local economy. In many cases, these abandoned mines were “orphaned,” meaning that the government cannot find the original mine owner, which puts taxpayers on the hook for the cleanup. The surface mining legislation of the 70s required that mining companies abide by a set of environmental standards and create plans for the reclamation of land after mining was complete.
This State Has One-Third of the Country’s Abandoned Mines (and It’s Bad News for Fish)

Things were suppose to change with the Surface Mining Reclamation Act. But with the coal companies shedding liabilities in bankruptcies it is unknown how much of that will actually pan out.

Appalachia, which has been ground into codependent poverty by the coal industry over the course of a century, has been declining, in coal output and employment, for decades. Lately it has only gotten worse, as companies declare bankruptcy, executives get healthy bonuses, polluted coal mines are abandoned, and miners and retirees are denied long-promised health benefits and pensions.

Western coal is declining too, and as it does, vulture capitalists are buying up mines, squeezing out the last bit of profits, and declaring bankruptcy, leaving behind an environmental mess and workers without jobs or pensions. It’s shaping up to be Appalachia all over again, in communities that were told it would never happen.

Basically, as the industry contracts, it’s a game of hot potato, as failing mines get passed around to increasingly fly-by-night companies that extract a little value before passing them along or going under. As one company after another “restructures” through bankruptcy, they ditch social and environmental obligations, even as executives prosper. It’s vulture capitalism, stripping everything down to the remaining valuable assets, the remaining mines and coal, and casting everything else, including mining communities and the grotesquely scarred landscape, overboard.

Few imagined that coal’s decay would continue and accelerate to the point that producing mines might become worthless. That’s why regulators allowed shady operators from Appalachia to buy up the Western mines from the bankrupt companies. (More on that below.) They didn’t see the risk. The mines were supposed to be fine. Yet coal’s decline has proven faster than anticipated, and PRB companies, accelerated by mismanagement, are dropping like flies.

When the coal bed methane boom went bust a few years ago [in 2015], big, responsible operators rushed to sell — or often give — multiple methane leases, hundreds of wells and infrastructure to newly hatched and poorly capitalized LLCs created by ‘get-rich-quick’ artists. These companies also relieved the original owners of huge liabilities: for taxes, surface use agreements, royalties, idle well bonds. Most of the new operators sold what gas they could and then quickly defaulted, leaving landowners with idle wells, eroded and disrupted surface lands, noxious weeds, uncollected royalties and rentals. They left the State of Wyoming with thousands of abandoned orphan wells and the need to spend tens of millions of dollars to plug and rehabilitate them.

Coal will go out doing what it always does: offloading costs
What’s unfolding in Wyoming is a perfect example of a business model that has already been used in Appalachia, for old California oil wells, for offshore oil wells, and will likely be used soon for shut-down coal plants and other abandoned fossil fuel infrastructure. It’s a way for industries that lived by rent-seeking to die by it.

First, the big companies went bankrupt and were restructured. They were desperate to get rid of the mines — and the associated health, pension, and reclamation obligations. So in came the scavengers, to buy those mines for cheap, with vague promises to renew them. That is the model: buy the mines (or assets) for cheap from a company in restructuring, thereby escaping health, pension, and environmental obligations; take out huge loans to keep the mines going; pay yourself and your executives handsomely from those loans; and then, when the mine goes under anyway, pay yourself additional bonuses for “managing” your own bankruptcy and walk away richer than you started.
Coal left Appalachia devastated. Now it’s doing the same to Wyoming.
The oil barrel is half-full.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Pops » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 21:21:07

kublikhan wrote:In all of history? Almost all of them.

Wait, you mean back in the good old days people didn't take responsibility for themselves and clean up their own mess?!
I'm shocked! I thought the sanctimonious libtards were just diss-ing the Makers.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 22:32:33

Wait, you mean back in the good old days people didn't take responsibility for themselves and clean up their own mess?!
I'm shocked! I thought the sanctimonious libtards were just diss-ing the Makers.


Prior to 1950 Coal was the main source of electricity in the US, it still makes up somewhere around 30%. So I guess you don’t use any electricity yourself then….or you have historically never bought any electricity from the grid? Those bad companies working to provide you with power that you demanded…..how dare they.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby mousepad » Thu 26 Sep 2019, 12:03:51

Pops wrote:They elected Regan/Bush/Bush and especially trump because they couldn't say the n word in polite company, couldn't keep a job for the college/black/brown/female/overseas competition, voted R and surprisingly couldn't get a decent raise for 30 years, couldn't squeeze the secretary's ass, couldn't smoke at work, couldn't put their cigarette butt out in on their breakfast plate at Sambos, couldn't tell pollock/wetback/okie jokes, couldn't pour their old motor oil down the storm drain, couldn't talk shit about the sissy boy or slutty looking girl in accounting, couldn't keep their kids as ignorant as them, couldn't buy incandescent lights, couldn't refuse to bake cakes for queers, couldn't use 2-4d on their dandelions, couldn't keep the neighborhood (daughters) "safe" from the meskins, couldn't police other people's bedrooms, couldn't, couldn't, couldn't.


I think that is partially true, what you say. But I think especially all the "couldn't" caused by bending over backward to a rapidly growing 3rd world immigrant population is was causes much grief.

Consider the example of many christian holidays in europe being renamed as not to offend imported muslim.
Or consider the renaming of age old european delicatessen, loosely translated as "negro-head", which apparently is too offensive for freshly imported africans.
Or consider the case of the flag of Sardinia, which shows 4 negro heads with covered eyes, created as a result of brave fighting of the Sardinian people against invading africans some 400 years ago. Even a flag must be changed to accommodate freshly imported 3rd world from africa.
Or the case of the old austrian brewery "mohrenbraeu" (negro-brew), which is under attack because apparently freshly imported refugees from africa feel offended.
And the list goes on and on.

Who cares how a flag looks like, or what pastry is called. Doesn't change a bit in one's quality of life. But I can understand that the natives being forced to change age old tradition to accommodate refugees can cause blood to boil.

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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Revi » Thu 26 Sep 2019, 12:40:52

Back to the subject of this thread. The ocean just crossed over 1 degree warmer worldwide. It's been flirting with that for a while. It's gone from about 1mm to over 3 mm of sea level rise per year. Something is happening! Sounds like a little less than a meter of sea level rise by midcentury with business as usual.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... rt/598765/

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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Pops » Thu 26 Sep 2019, 14:26:16

mousepad wrote:I think that is partially true, what you say. But I think especially all the "couldn't" caused by bending over backward to a rapidly growing 3rd world immigrant population is was causes much grief.

No doubt immigration is an irritant to those who feel their privilege undermined.
I guess the question is, do we want a society of equals or one of class? One of environmental awareness and thinking of future generations or short term benefit?
The problem at hand is all of these resentments have poisoned any rational discussion. Our resident geologist bemoans the "sanctimoniousness" of the spoiled whiny left, while the right fights tooth and nail against every proposal and policy the left proposes to actually protect the environment.

Obviously the butt-hurt of the prior privileged class (white males) is real, all I can offer is the new saw:
It’s Not Pie: Equal rights for others doesn’t mean fewer rights for you.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 02:39:17

Pops wrote:
mousepad wrote:I think that is partially true, what you say. But I think especially all the "couldn't" caused by bending over backward to a rapidly growing 3rd world immigrant population is was causes much grief.

No doubt immigration is an irritant to those who feel their privilege undermined.
I guess the question is, do we want a society of equals or one of class? One of environmental awareness and thinking of future generations or short term benefit?

I would rephrase these questions:
Do we want society or savagery?
If we wont society, we have to stop current chaotic migration.

Some of my customers (holiday makers) are coming from Sweden.
This summer 2 women and a man came and there was following comments:

"Poland is a beautiful place. You can still go sunbathing and no one tries to rape you."

Obviously the butt-hurt of the prior privileged class (white males) is real, all I can offer is the new saw:
It’s Not Pie: Equal rights for others doesn’t mean fewer rights for you.

This is mistaken view.
"Rights" are zero sum game.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 14:26:37

"Do we want society or savagery?"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The standard tool of every demagogue.

And your answer basically is if we want society, we have to embrace savagery.

Really, all your positions are so hilariously self contradictory and cliche'd, they do actually sound more like farce than a position someone would seriously hold. Are you in fact just pulling all of our chains? 8O

Meanwhile, back to topic:

New U.N. climate report:

Monumental change already here for world’s oceans and frozen regions


Climate change is already having staggering effects on oceans and ice-filled regions that encompass 80 percent of the Earth, and future damage from rising seas and melting glaciers is now all but certain, according to a sobering new report from the United Nations.

The warming climate is killing coral reefs, supercharging monster storms, and fueling deadly marine heat waves and record losses of sea ice.

And Wednesday’s report on the world’s oceans, glaciers, polar regions and ice sheets finds that such effects foreshadow a more catastrophic future as long as greenhouse gas emissions remain unchecked.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate- ... een&wpmm=1
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 16:15:39

dohboi wrote:And your answer basically is if we want society, we have to embrace savagery.

No, savagery is already embraced in places like Sweden, in parts of Germany, also in certain American cities like SF, LA or Seattle, to name a few.
Surely there will be more of it.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 17:59:25

If the question is how we will treat each other in this end game of climate change and resource depletion, I hope with some respect and, at least, with some common sense. The lashing out at other groups and the other side of the political spectrum and the embrace of bigotry and willful ignorance is not a good sign though. One would have thought that negative interest rates would be sufficient to keep everyone behaving.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Pops » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 20:47:12

EnergyUnlimited wrote:[This is mistaken view.
"Rights" are zero sum game.

Really?
The first thing that pops into my head. How can recognizing a same sex partner as "family" with the right to visit their partner in the hospital possibly reduce anyone else's rights?

Probably not what you are thinking.
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