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Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 15:10:09

Newfie wrote:What’s the difference between a “ground swell” and a “mob”?

Depends on what you mean by mob.

A ground swell is about a feeling growing in a large group of people. This can be over time, and it doesn't have to take the form of violence in any form. Willingness to vote, to protest, to vote with one's dollars, etc. might result though.

"Mob" usually connotes disorderly (to very bad) behavior.

Except for the large numbers implied, they're not even close IMO, unless the ground swell results in mob behavior.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 15:13:56

Newfie wrote:What’s the difference between a “ground swell” and a “mob”?


My own experience. In 1985 I was in Manila when Ferdinand Marcos tried to send the military to break up demonstrators .This lead to the people power movement. I was on the streets of Manila and what happened there was a Ground Swell of opposition among the population. Non violent and it effected the very military who refused Marcos orders and this lead to his departure from the country. That ground swell was based on a virtuous opposition one might say.

That is how I would see climate change activists creating a groundswell, disparate parts of the population coming together unified. Virtuous

A mob is choas, destructive and wants to tear down but with no meaningful vision or alternative. Source is anger

That would be my definition . How about yours?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 15:30:28

Ibon wrote:That would be my definition . How about yours?

Your example and explanation basically agrees with the internet dictionary definitions I read. Since I'm not a "word guy", I always check to ensure my understandings on word definitions are essentially correct before I comment on definitions.

I've never heard "mob" used in a positive context. Some tertiary definitions like "the ordinary people" are neutral. Ground swell doesn't seem to have a good or bad context: just rapid growth.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 17:35:32

Plantagenet wrote:the UN treaty to stop production of hydrofluorocarbons to save the ozone layer was done purely in response to scientists documenting destruction of the ozone layer...there was no massive citizen's movement pressuring the UN to ban hydroflorocarbons.


They didn't need one because there were 1:1 substitutions that could be swapped into place without requiring any sacrifice on the part of the consumer. So they knew they could just fix things without the rabble whining about it. I mean, did we have to give up air-conditioners??? Are CFC substitutes prohibitively expensive??? Same deal with the elimination of leaded gasoline. Far different case with carbon emissions, as people like you who like to profligately pollute can attest with your constant excuses and rationalizations.

Plantagenet wrote:take real, substantive action.


Action that you will ultimately not support if it impedes your personal ability to pollute.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 18:04:32

Hey ASG, if you obsess on Plant or if Plant obsesses on Obama, both of those examples are myopic and demonstrate a lack of integrity if you consider the severity of the topic we are discussing. If you really believe in the severity of climate change your posts would focus on how to move the juggernaut of humanity forward, not obsessing over Plant.

Ask yourself, "What would Greta Think"
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 20:32:59

Find out where to go to participate in the climate strike nearest you on September 20.

US-climate-strikes-locations?

The link above goes to a site sponsored by the Sierra Club. Just type in your zip code and it brings up the location of the nearest event to you. It also has a hot link for people "not in the US" which presumably has some info about non-US climate strike events.

Image

"On September 20, three days before the UN Climate Summit in NYC, young people and adults will strike all across the US and world to demand transformative action be taken to address the climate crisis. Millions of us will take the streets to demand a right to a future, and we’re inviting you to #strikewithus

Find a strike near you to attend on September 20 on the map below. If you don’t see an event in your area, organize one! We’ll provide everything you need to get started in planning something in your community so no experience is necessary. Whether you’re 7 or 77, you’re invited to join the movement.
For more information, please visit strikewithus.org.
"

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 14 Sep 2019, 08:44:50

I wanted to share a thought, more a reminder. If we go back to the original draw of peak oil as a game changer one of the most compelling aspects is that depletion of fossil fuels imposes immediate change in consumption habits. There is no lag time between cause and effect. Oil declines = consumption decline. Direct and immediate. No need to educate the masses, no need for international agreements, no need to socialize the population to consume less for the common good.

Climate change on the other hand has this long lag time between cause and effect. To avoid major calamity and draconian tipping points, the population has to be educated, socialized and binding international agreements that are enforceable has to be part of the solution.

This is the challenge if modern civilization wants to be proactive in moving through the consequences instead of purely being reactive to these very same consequences.

Harnessing the global population to modify their lifestyles in order to preserve the commons. This has never been done on a global scale and even at the national level there are very few examples.

A daunting challenge.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 14 Sep 2019, 09:07:36

A futile challenge, as evidenced by Plant's cognitive dissonance.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 14 Sep 2019, 22:43:14

asg70 wrote:A futile challenge, as evidenced by Plant....


Most likely a futile challenge, as evidenced by asg/mos/ennui.

Its true that the climate change deniers have both ignorance and inertia on their side.

But we can match that with our community, intelligence, youth, energy, and good looks.

IMHO the right action here is to stay positive and support Greta and the children all over the world who are organizing the global climate strike to pressure the UN to take action against climate change.

In one sense it doesn't matter whether or not the climate strike succeeds in forcing the UN to do something about climate change. Just engaging in the process of the climate strike is a step in the right direction. And perhaps we will succeed the next time....or the time after that....or the time after that.

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Support the children of the world. Climate Strike on Sept. 20th.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 15 Sep 2019, 07:40:26

The difference between a “ground swell” or “movement” and a mob is an idea.

If you convince folks of something, if they get the idea things should be different then that’s one thing, and it has a chance of persistence.

If you inflame folks with a passion, frequently of blame or guilt, then that passion can die out quickly or turn on the inciting forces.

Look at the French Revolution. Initially it was a passion and the mobs ruled. Later there was the rush of liberating and freeing others. But even that was usurped and they ended up with a Emperor, and then a return to Royalty.

It never had a cohesive idea, the common folks heard about but never really understood the American experiment. They never formed a truly representative government and went about making themselves a stable democratic state. They never absorbed the IDEA in a dispassionate and deliberate way.

At times a mob can evolve into a movement. But that takes a lot of concerted effort and education.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 15 Sep 2019, 09:17:42

Newfie wrote:
At times a mob can evolve into a movement. But that takes a lot of concerted effort and education.


Of course mobs can be leaderless and just come from rage. Recalling the philippines People Power movement it had a quality that felt so just and virtuous. The military refused to fire on the citizens. I was on EDSA boulevard that day. Members of the military approached me because I was a foreigner. Most of the them were emotional crying. The entire population was emotionally in tears basically.

Think of the only virtuous war during the past 80 years, WWII. Think of the focused sacrifice among the population, victory gardens and all the rest.

Those are examples of a groundswell, not a mob, the cohesive sacrifice coming from a virtuous place. This borders on the spiritual.

These are exactly the qualities that need to be nourished and cultivated today with our global population in reference to climate change. This can be nourished, first and foremost by painful consequences. Leaders then must take those consequences and use that as a unifying force (high road) instead of a divisive force (low road)

The primitive low road, scapegoating and demonizing others, hording etc. will lead to war and destruction. Ecologically it will be effective, it will work in reducing the population and consumption. It is in the arsenal of the Overshoot Predator.

The high road, where we pull together with a sense of unity and sacrifice as I saw in the Philippine people during that revolution, this method will also work, will also reduce consumption and even population. It requires enlightened leaders who set the example of sacrifice. Ecologically this will also work.

Humans will choose the high road or the low road. The planet will benefit either way.

BY the way this is not a binary choice. History shows this. So we can most likely expect a combination of the high road and the low road. They actually act on each other sometimes. High road movements among the population may evolve out of reaction of populations taking the low road.

This can take on biblical proportions, the spiritual path of revering our mother earth and living within a sustainable consumption pattern may be laid down by commandments similar to the ethics and morals you see in human behavior that are part of todays religions. The religions created this basis of ethics and morals on the back drop of violence and social disruption.

So there is a dance between the high road and the low road on the level of civilization that reflects the struggle between selfishness and altruism that exists within each individual.

Human monkeys were selected for both by the way, aggression and selfishness and altruism. It should be no surprise that civilization will act according to both of these forces in how we adapt or perish to the consequences coming our way due to climate change.....
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 15 Sep 2019, 10:08:57

Plantagenet wrote:Support the children of the world. Climate Strike on Sept. 20th.


Don't hide behind a child's activism. Be the change you want to see in the world otherwise you're just a poseur (see signature).

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-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby GHung » Sun 15 Sep 2019, 10:16:29

The problem with humans is short attention spans, especially in an age of mass distraction. Past "groundswells" showed results in the short-term. WWII sacrifices begot moving front lines; more dead Nazis and Japs. The environmental movements of the 60s showed result in just a few years; cleaner air and rivers,, all that.
The effects of climate change are baked in for decades (if not longer). The benefits of whatever actions we take, collectively, are likely to be tiny in the short-term; imperceptible day-to-day. Those actions will need come with rewards of their own, as in my case where I long ago discovered that being a consumer is hard work and expensive on a personal scale. As I said above, I couldn't see the point. Whatever positive behavioral changes we may make must also become long-term cultural changes, planet-wide, almost religious in nature. And, as we've seen recently with environmental successes, they can be undone by a relatively small counter-movement.
Then there are the baked-in rewards of increasing consumption. Growth, more jobs, new stuff, the ability to travel and the pretense of high class lifestyles, all more instant gratifications that are powerful incentives toward more consumptive, less climate friendly, behavior.
How many folks make their livings in service to consumption and waste? They are going to have to find better things to do. What would that be?
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 15 Sep 2019, 12:34:43

GHung said
Those actions will need come with rewards of their own, as in my case where I long ago discovered that being a consumer is hard work and expensive on a personal scale.


That’s right. I see Consumerisim as an additional TAX. Every time you spend on stuff you enrich the 1% at your own expense. Want to reduce your taxes? Stop buying stuff!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 15 Sep 2019, 13:10:21

Newfie wrote: I see Consumerisim as an additional TAX. Every time you spend on stuff you enrich the 1% at your own expense. Want to reduce your taxes? Stop buying stuff!


Exactly right.

This is also one of Greta's main causes. She is an advocate of the "stop-shop" movement, i.e. People should't buy new things unless they really can't find it used. Most new things have large carbon footprints --- much of the new stuff from China is just junk made out of petroleum products, new clothes require huge amounts of water if they're made out of cotton, and things like new cars have mind-bendingly huge carbon footprints.

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 15 Sep 2019, 13:27:08

Yes yes yes. Those frugal among us understand the freedom this affords. Good for your soul, good for the planet.

Most people actually would want this if they hadn't been socialized through the lies and promises of advertisers, the lies and misinformation of technology where each new gadget is the key to happiness, the lies of consumption culture that let's face it are promoted by the very wealthy as this creates a wealth pump that flows up to them......

The extreme disparity of wealth is directly related to consumption culture which is directly related to ecological imbalances.


What Newfie said, every time you consume you are feeding the wealth pump up to the very very wealthy.

Are these comments socialism Cog?

Help us out here.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby sparky » Mon 16 Sep 2019, 08:16:20

.
So the Greenies are down to pimping little girls ?
this demonstrate the strength of their arguments ,

the advertisement industry always believed that a reasoned discussion is useless
much better to show a sad little girl , it's low but it work every times
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Revi » Mon 16 Sep 2019, 13:25:24

sparky wrote:.
So the Greenies are down to pimping little girls ?
this demonstrate the strength of their arguments ,

the advertisement industry always believed that a reasoned discussion is useless
much better to show a sad little girl , it's low but it work every times


Let's hope so! I hope somebody pays attention. She's a better spokesperson than Bill McKibben, although he got the ball rolling a bit...
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 16 Sep 2019, 15:25:10

Newfie wrote:That’s right. I see Consumerisim as an additional TAX.

It is usually a form of tax on stupid, particularly when goods which are trendy but not really needed are bought on credit.
Every time you spend on stuff you enrich the 1% at your own expense. Want to reduce your taxes? Stop buying stuff!

I would also add - work *less*.

I have an interesting observation from my life:
While working in UK pharma 15 years ago, I was earning a decent money but led frugal life.
My collegues were buying expensive cars, nice properties, twice a year they were going on holiday (often on opposite hemisphere) etc.

I was not doing any of that. I was driving an old car, renting first and then bought property during slump, we were going on holiday abroad with my wife once per few years. I was doing anything and everything to slush my family running expenses. My collegues were asking why I am wasting my life and my wife needed constant reassuring that we are going to be those who are laughing last.

As a result for last 15 years we are leading a semi-retired lifestyle. Season is short (2-3 months), tourists are happily giving us money and traders pay for land/shop rental. We don't need to do much and yet somehow every year is only better than a previous one.
The amount of free time we enjoy is absolutely priceless, there was no struggle with setting our kids to adulthood.
Concept of taking credit for something is an entirely alien idea for us.
If you don't have cash then you don't buy.
We feel free, there is no job, no boss, no loan, no other obligations, no deadlines, no need to compete with your neighbor etc. You do what you like.

On the other hand most of my work collegues with whom we are still in contact are earning and spending and earning and spending ab infinitum and they are getting nowhere, even if now in their 50-thies. Very few succeeded.

Interestingly the richest person I ever knew was worth about $ 0.8 billion. He was a business angel who have founded company where I was working and also dosens of other companies. We have had nice christmas do every year. On one occasion I was invited to his family estate (which was impressive and a bit of jaw dropping experience for me) but the same guy was attending company christmas do.
And guess what?
He was arriving in rather old and average make car (Ford Escort). Most of my work collegues had far better cars than he had, naturally bought with credit.
His suit was stylish but rather worn. No Rolex or anything alike. He have sincerely hated attention of strangers in public places. While flying he was buying economy tickets. First class only if in party of rich and snobbish peoples, whom he quietly disregarded.
But his private life was luxurious. Yachts, helicopters, stables and golf courses.
He was "old money" guy from English aristocratic family.

One time this guy have told me that:
"From what I observe you are very likely to get somewhere"
Asked him why he thinks so.
He answered: because you are not shamed about driving old car. You feel comfortable in it and yet you are good in what you do at work.

This was perhaps the most valuable conversation in my life.
I dedicate it to young readers of this forum in particular.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 17 Sep 2019, 06:54:59

We did a variation in this. At some point I realized I wanted more time more than more money. So I started working part time and doing other things in my time off.

While I watched colleagues slaving and going ever deeper in debt.

And we still managed to live debt free excepting the mortgage, which after so many years was paid by the rentals.
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