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Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 12:06:28

asg70 wrote:Just because she's young doesn't mean others her age will pay attention to her..


Do you ever watch the news or read a newspaper? Do you really know nothing about the demonstrations of thousands of young people Greta has been leading across Europe for the last several months?

I hate to break it to you, but young people in Sweden, and then across Europe, the USA and the rest of world have indeed been paying attention to Greta's message. She started out demonstrating alone, but now thousands of young people are turning out in demos to support her and support her message. Thats why Greta was invited to the UN to speak to the general assembly.....she's started a worldwide youth movement against climate change. And now this movement is coming to the USA. Hundreds of young people turned out in New York to demonstrate at the UN with Greta the day after she arrived.

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Greta Thunberg and thousands of her youthful supporters demonstrate against climate change in Europe

Cheers!
Last edited by Plantagenet on Sun 01 Sep 2019, 12:19:26, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 12:07:51

The real test will happen when these young generations calling for immediate action mature into power.
The cynical among us have already convinced ourselves that this is all the ideological earnestness of youth and that they will follow the baby boomers footsteps of going from back to earth hippies when we were young to becoming consuming yuppies when we got older. That is why we tend to shit on the younger generations today, because we ourselves failed so miserably and sold out on the ideology of our youth and we assume that the generation to follow will do the same. Again, our failure is why we tend to shit on the messages we hear from the younger generation and also conclude that the younger generation are degenerating. It is our projection of our own failure on to them.


i respectfully completely disagree. First of all you are suggesting that Thunberg has any legitimacy at all. Did I happen to mention the fact she actually truly believes she can see CO2 in the atmosphere? How about the fact she doesn't go to school and can't possibly have read any of the literature? Exactly how is that setting a good example for youth? The message being sent is...it doesn't matter if you have any of the facts straight or that you actually bothered to try and understand the issues all you need is a belief in something and you will be right. Jesus wept. I note that nobody bothered to mention the fact she showed up after the voyage in full offshore gear (nylon and polyester) and a pair of ocean going crocs (100% plastic)...a poster child for the petrochemical industry. I guess it is lost on folks that back not that many decades ago large ocean going sailing craft that were fairly fast were built of wood (eg. Bluenose) and sailors got along OK with oiled wool jumpers and caps and canvas pants. This whole "expedition" was a complete nonsensical farse and supporting it does no service to your cause whatsoever.

If the youth of today is so supportive of such a cause then I suggest you should be able to take away their video games, mobile phones, laptops, high end bicycles, synthetic garments etc. After all those items required the use of petroleum to fabricate. I wait to hear the crescendo of moans such as "but my cellphone is already a year old...I need a new one". :roll:
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 12:16:37

Did I happen to mention the fact she actually truly believes she can see CO2 in the atmosphere? How about the fact she doesn't go to school and can't possibly have read any of the literature? Exactly how is that setting a good example for youth? The message being sent is...it doesn't matter if you have any of the facts straight or that you actually bothered to try and understand the issues all you need is a belief in something and you will be right.... I note that nobody bothered to mention the fact she showed up after the voyage in full offshore gear (nylon and polyester) and a pair of ocean going crocs (100% plastic)...a poster child for the petrochemical industry. I guess it is lost on folks that back not that many decades ago large ocean going sailing craft that were fairly fast were built of wood (eg. Bluenose) and sailors got along OK with oiled wool jumpers and caps and canvas pants. This whole "expedition" was a complete nonsensical farse and supporting it does no service to your cause whatsoever.


Greta is a 16 year old child---not a scientist---- and its very easy pick nits and to find inconsistencies in her statements and actions. But she isn't trying to educate people about climate change---thats the job of the scientists themselves. Greta's message is very simple...climate change is dangerous to children like her and to all the children of the next generation and it should be stopped.

I look forward to hearing her speech to the UN

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 12:18:16

Plantagenet wrote:Do you ever watch the news or read a newspaper?


Do you ever make a post without being hopelessly condescending?

Plantagenet wrote:Do you really know nothing about the demonstrations of thousands of young people


Thousands. Color me unimpressed.

Plantagenet wrote:young people in Sweden, and then across Europe, the USA and the rest of world have indeed been paying attention


You really think you've got the finger on the pulse of young people?

Image

Look, if there is a tipping point, I'll be the first to celebrate, but I'm just pointing out that we're starting from a very low point as far as what your average youth thinks is important. By and large they are more interested in whether Wonder Woman should have armpit-hair or whether Rey and Kylo should hookup than global warming.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 12:26:53

Let's see, it was electric battery packs causing cancer to Tesla fires and now Greta Thunberg is the newest shiny object for Plant to obsess on--and ruthlessly attempt to convince us to match his level of unhealthy fixation. Give it a few weeks and he'll move onto the next shiny thing. It's always been his pattern and always will be.

the masses need to educated


Yep, like how air-travel is highly polluting. You wanna get on board with that? I mean, you can't really be for Greta unless you do.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 12:50:16

asg70 wrote:Greta Thunberg ....unhealthy fixation.


Fight it, asg/mos/ennu. Don't give in. Try to think of puppies instead.

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 14:08:36

Oh if I could chill the rhetoric!!!

There are points in both sides.

One of the big problems I have with the general CC movement is that they do not speak the truth in that the most likely scenario predicted is far worse than what we hear in the media. In short CC activist tend to treat the public like a bunch of dolts that must be MANIPULATED rather than being EDUCATED.

The reason they do this is, I suppose, that our education system and culture focus’ much more on manipulation than education.

In Plants defense he is relating the more traditional, more main stream thinking about how to win elections, which seems to be how we work in the USA. Make promises, fire up the base, win, and return to BAU as the INCUMBANT. It’s not just our political system it’s a fundamental part of our culture, our economy. Companies try very hard to develop BRAND LOYALTY amongst younger folks, because it’s part of their formative years and carries through life. They win the short therm battle on the youth and then they become the in INCUMBANT.

You see this in all kinds of arenas: when asked about congress in general polls revel a terrible approval rating, yet folks rate their personal Congress critter much higher. Same with schools and school teachers. It’s the case when you are led by emotion vs rational thought.

I personally think this is a big mistake, that because CC et al are really big multigenerational issues then we need to treat them differently. We have spent a couple of decades manipulating the public, and here is where we are. The public has been treated as deplorable s to be talked down to and manipulated. It’s time to start treating the public like a bunch of adults and educating them to the realities. That won’t be easy especially since we have cultivated so much resentment in the meantime.

We had better damn we’ll learn how to talk with Republicans, and conservatives, and deniers of all stripes so that they trust and understand the message. That goes for Democrats, Liberals, and so called activists as well. The New Green Deal is a sham promoting BAU and the Left doesn’t get it.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 14:36:36

"The New Green Deal is a sham promoting BAU"

That's because nobody wants BAU to end other than a few token doomers, hence advocating for it to end is a non-starter. Green New Deal would be better than brown-tech but it rests on the false magical thinking that we can have our cake and eat it too--and even THAT is treated as a threat to BAU by a significant chunk of the voting block who are unlikely to ever budge even if New York City is buried underwater. Even Elon Musk of all people thinks population is going to crash purely due to demographic shift, not overshoot. You can't sell powerdown. It's been tried. What's the current status of the Transition movement, for instance? Who is to blame? It's not so much the messengers as much as the receiver for not wanting to accept a dire message. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

It just seems as though doomers are caught in a sort of activist feedback loop of suggesting the same sorts of things over and over despite history proving they don't work. This constant pleading among doomers for (or a passive sense of entitlement for) a high-profile figure to somehow show us the way forward is also magical thinking. I know it sounds fatalistic but take stock of the last dozen or so years of well-meaning awareness campaigns.

Remember An Inconvenient Truth? Remember DiCaprio's 11th Hour? Remember Earth 2100? The Zeitgeist movement/cult?
Remember the 4 star review Roger Ebert gave Collapse? Avatar? Project Home? Crude: The Incredible Journey of Oil? The Story of Stuff? Remember Harrison Ford and company with Years of Living Dangerously? I haven't watched it yet but supposedly the new Dark Crystal is an analogy of Global Warming. None of this stuff really moves anyone beyond, at best, SLACKTIVISM It makes a few headlines and then falls off the radar. People might be compelled to tweet or wring their hands in a FB post but they won't change their lifestyles.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 15:11:59

ASG,

OK, what SHOULD we do?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 15:22:06

Newfie wrote:ASG,
OK, what SHOULD we do?


That's just it. Everyone has to stop conjuring up macro-level prescriptions for society as a whole because the rubber will never meet the road. How many times do you want to keep fantasizing only for nothing of substance to get done?

I am with Ibon on the Overshoot Predator narrative. People will change when they are forced to, when resources become too scarce and/or they can no longer afford it.

People by and large do not have the conscience to sacrifice for the collective good. It will take more than the tiny demographic percentage of treehuggers to make a difference in humanity's outcome.

Where you are going to see most activity is in adaptation, just as Earth 2100 predicts. We will see massive attempts to protect coastal areas with seawalls. We will see more and more border protection with shoot to kill orders. Borders will close or we will deal with a highly violent balkanized country. We have already had a taste of california water rationing. We will see lots of technofixes. Water desalinization, GMO, etc... These BAU extension measures will go balls to the wall before any sort of powerdown/back-to-the-land/communitarian/kumbaya movement gains traction. People will be aware of the problem but amuse themselves to death with a wide assortment of hedonistic pursuits and mind-altering substances. Just like today, only moreso.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Cog » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 23:42:50

Doing nothing is absolutely the best approach and has the benefit of actually being what will happen. Even talking about remediation is a huge waste of effort.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 02 Sep 2019, 07:07:42

If we’re truly to “do nothing”, as in stop what we currently are doing, I would agree. But what you are advocating is NOT a “do nothing” stance. You are advocating we do nothing to change BAU. But we most assuredly are doing quite a bit.

If you are torturing someone, and it is suggested you stop, to “do nothing” would mean you stop. To “do nothing” in your sense would mean you “do nothing” in response to the complaint while you continue to torture.

Does that make sense ?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 02 Sep 2019, 08:12:32

Newfie wrote:You are advocating we do nothing to change BAU.


No, what I'm advocating is to let go of the term "we" as part of moving through the stages of grief. There is no "we" because we won't move in lock-step away from BAU, and that's the scale of what would need to be done to make anything more than a token impact.

I mean, let's get real. If all of the things I rattled out that have come and gone didn't help much, what good do you think pounding out a manifesto on a forum with a dozen active posters will do? How many such manifestos are buried in the archive?

If it makes some people feel better to share their wish-list, fine, but that's about all it accomplishes.

And I don't think there are really any new ideas to be had. It's not a matter of brainstorming. There are plenty of ideas. There is just no support from the normies.

The best you're gonna get are things like the switch to LED lighting or Tony Seba's EV adoption curve: serendipitous green consumerism that plugs right into our BAU way of life. When people make simple shopper's decisions and the math favors green tech, then they will move in a more benign direction, but they won't be doing it to consciously save the planet and it won't require any personal sacrifice.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 02 Sep 2019, 09:54:54

ASG,
I was responding to COG.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 02 Sep 2019, 10:34:45

Some climate deniers are attacking Greta Thunberg personally, calling her "mentally disturbed" because she has Asperger's Syndrome.

greta-thunberg-responds-to-aspergers-critics

Greta calls her Asperger's diagnosis a "superpower" because she tends to see things in black-and-white and moralistic ways, and, like many people with Asperger's, she tends to say exactly what she thinks, irregardless of whether or not it hurts the feelings of the listener.

Her climate change activism has helped Greta break out of the social isolation that people with Asperger's some times fall into, and her directness and lack of tact helps her speak truth to power about the dangers of climate change and the folly of ignoring the findings and future climate predictions of the world's top climate scientists.

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Revi » Wed 04 Sep 2019, 10:41:09

Greta is already making things happen. I spoke to a scientist and he agreed that we are in real trouble. When I asked him if he was going to get involved in any rallies or do anything he said that he was flying to Hong Kong and India for conferences, and therefore was part of the problem, so he said he wasn't interested in doing anything about it.

I think we need to somehow get everyone into the solution. Like Greta who get the Yacht Club of Monaco involved in her journey. We never would have heard of them or cared about their amazing boat without her. Instead of a bunch of playboys in a yacht suddenly they are climate warriors!

We need everyone to become involved. That's the way to build a movement.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Cog » Wed 04 Sep 2019, 11:00:24

Yes.. We absolutely need to destroy this oil/gas based economy and plunge billions into abject poverty and starvation to save the planet. What could possibly go wrong with such a measured response?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 04 Sep 2019, 11:53:25

Revi wrote:he said that he was flying to Hong Kong and India for conferences, and therefore was part of the problem


Hear that Plant?

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-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 04 Sep 2019, 11:55:51

Cog wrote:Yes.. We absolutely need to destroy this oil/gas based economy and plunge billions into abject poverty and starvation to save the planet. What could possibly go wrong with such a measured response?


To COG/ASG/Ibon,

You are correct that destroying the current economy will do as Cog says above.

The thing is doing nothing will result in an even worse situation. More folks will plunge into even deeper poverty and it will be harder to claw our way back our because of the destruction to the environment.

The choices between the absolute worst situation and the second worst situation.

There is no “do nothing” solution, there are two ways you pick one or the other. You are responsible for your pick.

I readily admit that it is unlikely we will do anything other than BAU (do nothing).
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 04 Sep 2019, 12:11:34

The choices between the absolute worst situation and the second worst situation.

There is no “do nothing” solution, there are two ways you pick one or the other. You are responsible for your pick.


this is exactly the problem I have mentioned earlier....folks here are either all "we don't have to do anything" or "we have to completely stop using petroleum and let people die off and go back to being cavemen".

My view is if the right approach is taken by the gov't it will become attractive to people to replace their internal combustion engine vehicles with electric-powered vehicles, companies replacing their fleets with electric vehicles and eventually, most of the power consumption becomes electric-based. That electricity would have to be supported by a smart combination of wind, water, natural gas, and nuclear sources. That is very doable with the right incentives. Asking people to give things up just because it is somehow the right thing to do (when there is little in the way of proof you can show them that is true) will not work, it never has and it never will. But if they can get the same benefits at an equal or better price point without giving up immense advantages then that is great. What this means is a lot of oil left to be used for petrochemicals etc. Incentivizing research towards replacing plastics or finding better methods for recycling would also be advantageous.
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