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Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 30 Aug 2019, 13:25:10

Plantagenet wrote:pushing the boat through the water requires a lot of fuel and releases a lot of carbon.


What an idiotic thing to say.

Oh, the carbon, so much carbon!

Image

Any peaker worth his salt knows that water travel is the most efficient. That's why historically waterways were the most popular way to travel long distances and move cargo. And cargo by ship is STILL the most efficient, even factoring in bunker fuel. That's why globalization is resilient, since the overhead of shipping something on a slow-boat from China is surprisingly cheap. The labor arbitrage of employing the third world saves more money than is lost through extra shipping overhead.

Plantagenet wrote:If you want to rank trans-Atlantic travel in terms of carbon efficiency, air travel would probably be best


You don't know what the heck you're talking about. The only efficient air-travel would be by airship.

(I had to have known that rank stupidity was a big factor in your cognitive dissonance.)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 30 Aug 2019, 16:03:49

asg70 wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:pushing the boat through the water requires a lot of fuel and releases a lot of carbon.


What an idiotic thing to say.


No sense in you getting cheeky when clearly you are the one who doesn't understand basic physics and is too much of a thickie to understand the magnitude of carbon emissions produced by ocean freighters.

Here's a simple experiment for to try to see the effect of water on objects in motion. Take your hand and wave it through the air. Now take your and and rotate it around in your toilet bowel (first remove any objects therein). Do you feel the effect of the water? Your hand has to exert more force to move through water then it does through air because it has to displace water to move. Now...here's the hard part.....the same things applies to ocean-going freighters....they also have to displace water as they move. Do you understand that? I can try to make it even simpler for you if necessary.

A UN study on this very subject found that the carbon emissions from shipping amounts to about 4.5% of all carbon emissions....about twice the amount previously assumed. And the reason for that is ....wait for it.... that shipping freight on ocean freighters requires a lot of fuel and so releases massive amounts of carbon.

ocean-shipping-climate-change

Do you get it now?

AND....now that we've cleared that up....kow about you exert some self-control and stop your ad hom attacks and we just discuss the thread topic, OK? This thread is about Greta Thunberg. Today she joined hundreds of other children in a demonstration against climate change at the UN in NYC. At the demonstration Esme Ruiz, eight, from New York, attending with her father, said: “The world is literally melting right in front of our eyes and no-one even realises it. We need to teach them..It’s hard to make changes sometimes, but if you need to save the world, I’d do it rather than die.”

I think we all can support Esme Ruiz, 8, in her wish to stop the world from melting.

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 30 Aug 2019, 16:20:26

Revi wrote: Did you see how fast that boat goes? 30 knots! I think it's as least as important to get people aware that a safe, keel boat can go that fast! We could use some of that technology and know how to move people in a low carbon way around from city to city when it gets bad.


I really like Greta and her message, but lets not get caught up in phony hype here.

Traveling by private yacht isn't going to be of much use for most people. A sailboat like that probably costs north of a million dollars, and requires a highly trained crew to operate. Its nice that an extremely wealthy person loaned his sailboat and crew to Greta so she could travel by private yacht to NYC, but its highly unlikely that this will translate into a workable mass transit system for average people.

And while Greta Thunberg is claiming she crossed the Atlantic on a carbon-free sailing trip, she is conveniently ignoring the fact that the crew flew in to meet her and the sailboat at the start of her trip and the captain and others are flying black to Europe now, so her trip wound up emitting 3-5 times more CO2 then if Greta has just gotten on an airplane and flew to NYC.

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 31 Aug 2019, 05:57:07

Revi,

I also get Greta’s message but have to agree with Plant, that’s not a mode of travel for the average person.

That thing is a racing sled, it’s not something you would want to ride on. Million is likely a low estimate, I don’t have time to look up much right now. It’s run by a professional crew. There is nothing efficient about it except that it can go like hell. And hell it must be to be inside.
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 31 Aug 2019, 06:42:45

There are a couple of these boats for sale on yachtworld at this link.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/catego ... ca+Open+60
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 31 Aug 2019, 07:40:33

So we are all supposed to be impressed that a wealthy entitled teen girl gets coddled by her family to come by sailing yacht to a "protest" by other entitled wealthy teens?

Sorry, ain't gonna happen.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 31 Aug 2019, 11:10:56

Plantagenet wrote:to understand the magnitude of carbon emissions produced by ocean freighters.


I didn't say they produced no CO2. You suggested flying is more efficient than shipping. That's wrong. That's why freight comes by ship rather than huge cargo planes, regardless of what the exact CO2 emissions are. It's not just about the resistance of air vs. water via your stupid hand analogy. It's about weight. When something floats in water it compensates for its weight. Not the case with planes, which is why, for instance, the Spruce Goose could barely lift itself out of the water. If you keep trying to argue this point you'll just dig a deeper and deeper hole for yourself.

Plantagenet wrote:This thread is about Greta Thunberg.


You're the one who changed the topic, not me.

Plantagenet wrote:I think we all can support Esme Ruiz, 8, in her wish to stop the world from melting.


Yes, support them...by powering down your lifestyle accordingly rather than making excuses for it.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 31 Aug 2019, 11:45:19

What it’s like in an Open 60.

What conditions are the most comfortable?** Generally, any time the water is flat, life on board is pleasant, no matter how strong the wind. As the wind and waves build, it is progressively more comfortable on board the farther aft the wind goes. Upwind and reaching are a tedium of slamming into waves, ranging from gunshot sounds upwind to banging together two trash can lids while reaching. Until about 22 knots that is. After that, life becomes increasingly violent, and the boat's always heeling at least 15 degrees. It becomes necessary to pay attention to your movements, especially down below, where there are plenty of things to fall on. Outside, above 22 knots, there are always waves and water on deck and in the cockpit, meaning foul-weather gear no matter how hot, unless you are planning on just staying wet, in which case the apparent wind quickly has you quite cold. Upwind is bang bang bang like a war, and as soon as you're reaching, you're going so fast that it's like being on a runaway train—one that's constantly falling over cliffs but never crashing. It is super stressful on the nerves, wondering if you will get into the trough of a particularly big wave and nosedive.

Storm conditions on a boat like this are brutal. In winds over 40 knots, it's more or less impossible to go upwind, certainly not advisable. The risk of breaking the boat or your nerves is quite high, and the accelerations and decelerations in waves are like a car accident. Even downwind, over 38 knots, you've reached terminal velocity, and the boat buries into most of the waves. It's almost impossible to slow down. Even with three reefs and a storm jib, in 40 to 45 knots of breeze, it's possible to be pushed to 25-28 knots of speed quite easily.


https://www.sailingworld.com/how-to/how ... l-open-60/
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 31 Aug 2019, 11:49:56

Oops, posted this in he wrong thread. Here goes here.

What’s it like on an Open 60?

What conditions are the most comfortable?** Generally, any time the water is flat, life on board is pleasant, no matter how strong the wind. As the wind and waves build, it is progressively more comfortable on board the farther aft the wind goes. Upwind and reaching are a tedium of slamming into waves, ranging from gunshot sounds upwind to banging together two trash can lids while reaching. Until about 22 knots that is. After that, life becomes increasingly violent, and the boat's always heeling at least 15 degrees. It becomes necessary to pay attention to your movements, especially down below, where there are plenty of things to fall on. Outside, above 22 knots, there are always waves and water on deck and in the cockpit, meaning foul-weather gear no matter how hot, unless you are planning on just staying wet, in which case the apparent wind quickly has you quite cold. Upwind is bang bang bang like a war, and as soon as you're reaching, you're going so fast that it's like being on a runaway train—one that's constantly falling over cliffs but never crashing. It is super stressful on the nerves, wondering if you will get into the trough of a particularly big wave and nosedive.

Storm conditions on a boat like this are brutal. In winds over 40 knots, it's more or less impossible to go upwind, certainly not advisable. The risk of breaking the boat or your nerves is quite high, and the accelerations and decelerations in waves are like a car accident. Even downwind, over 38 knots, you've reached terminal velocity, and the boat buries into most of the waves. It's almost impossible to slow down. Even with three reefs and a storm jib, in 40 to 45 knots of breeze, it's possible to be pushed to 25-28 knots of speed quite easily.




https://www.sailingworld.com/how-to/how ... l-open-60/
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 31 Aug 2019, 12:29:42

Image
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 31 Aug 2019, 14:29:50

I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby EdwinSm » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 04:46:17

If one looks at advertising one is aware that there is a huge factor in appealing to emotions rather than the intellect. In other spheres, I am impressed by how Donald Trump does this with his politics and how successful that is in swaying the American public.

With Greta's transatlantic trip we can discuss the extra costs of flying the crew back and forth, [although I am troubled but the duplicity of complaining about a multi-million dollar boat and ignoring the much higher cost of the planes :P ] However, as an appeal to the emotions of the public I think this was a great move on her behalf.
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 06:41:48

EdwinSim,

Your point is well taken.

The problem I have with the emotional appeal is that because it is not based in fact it can, and does, swing wildly and with force. Look at the French Revolution where they started with a King and ended with an Emperor and quite a few less people. Not just those guillotined but also those lost in battle on both sides. Another example that comes to mind are the Spanish wars of the similar time frame where the public would alternatively support the Royals and Republicans depending upon how the church was handled.

When you are appealing to emotion you end up with mob rule. And at the moment Trump is more adept at handling the mob. But that could change at any time.

We seem to have lost the guiding principals that guard against this sort of thing. Some folks lay it on the rise of the 24/7 news media and their list for ratings. But I don’t know about that, maybe. And maybe we were never sufficiently taught the necessity of thoughtful restraint, thus laying it on the Consumer Culture.
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 08:05:27

Newfie wrote:

It’s a publicity stunt, a way to manipulate the masses rather than teach them.


This is nothing new but rather the status quo since the dawn of civilization. Just look at religions.

The cynic in me is not very hopeful that you can lift the masses through education. Since WWII the USA had the greatest wealth in the world and the greatest opportunity to educate the masses and recent studies indicate that 40% of Americans in the south do not believe in evolution. If that is the position after the decades of the most wealth in the history of humanity for the masses what the hell do you think the next decades will bring in terms of education?

I think the pathway forward is to manipulate the masses but with environmentally benign or better yet environmentally sustainable positions.

Imagine the power of the state, corporations, advertisers, and of course educational institutions if they all were rowing the boat in the same direction in manipulating the masses regarding the major crisis of our time?

The problem is currently the manipulations are misplaced and need to be adjusted.

Manipulating the masses is a key to moving through the bottleneck of human overshoot. The masses demonstrate that they prefer being manipulated rather than being told the truth, prefer not to be awakened.

How many evangelicals would be on board with climate change if they were told that they will burn in hell and eternal damnation for failing to be good shepards in how they have handled gods creation? Of course most evangelicals have just proven to the world that their hypocrisy knows no limits in their support of our current president.

I don't mean to be divisive with these comments but rather illustrate the challenge we have if we think the pathway toward any resolution is educating rather than manipulating the masses.

It's another reason why I put my "faith" in external consequences. The ability of these consequences to act as catalysts for those in power to manipulate the masses in the right direction will be formidable. If climate change creates biblical consequences like crop failures, famine, spread of disease and disappearing coastlines I can assure you that religions preaching protecting gods creation will move far more people in adjusting their lifestyles and consumption habits than trying to educate them on the science of climate change.

We need to work from within the narratives that people hold on to and not force them to understand the science.

All the current manipulations are geared to reinforcing consumption and the status quo. External consequences will change this but we will not change in any significant way change peoples delusional narratives. We will have to work within existing narratives and this requires sophisticated manipulations of the masses.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 10:43:04

Think a moment. Does this Greta and her actions resonate with younger Gen Z's and millenials who will inherit the problem? That would seem to be the case. It does not matter if she is being used as a prop. If she is effective in focusing the issue with the generation that will inherit the problem then she is doing something positive. The fact that no effective solutions are the result of her actions to date has more to do with the generation currently in power. You know, us! Greta's generation is a couple of decades away from having the gauntlet of power passed to them. We, all of us baby boomers who like to visit sites like peakoil.com tend to shit on the efforts of the younger generation. .

The real test will happen when these young generations calling for immediate action mature into power.
The cynical among us have already convinced ourselves that this is all the ideological earnestness of youth and that they will follow the baby boomers footsteps of going from back to earth hippies when we were young to becoming consuming yuppies when we got older. That is why we tend to shit on the younger generations today, because we ourselves failed so miserably and sold out on the ideology of our youth and we assume that the generation to follow will do the same. Again, our failure is why we tend to shit on the messages we hear from the younger generation and also conclude that the younger generation are degenerating. It is our projection of our own failure on to them.

I think times have changed. I do not believe that the current young generation are going to age and sell themselves out on the consumption dream. As a generation they will make real sacrifices on their consumption as they age. Helped by the fact that constraints will impose this on them. The double punch of ideology coupled and reinforced by physical constraints. That is what we lacked, us baby boomers when Ronald Reagan told us all it is morning in America again and the yuppies ran with that message. Something Trump is trying to do but far less effectively.

I think many of you are completely under estimating the power of the message here that Greta and similar young people are making. That message is going to increasingly resonate with external constraints and this will be a powerful force.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 11:24:53

Ibon wrote:Think a moment. Does this Greta and her actions resonate with younger Gen Z's and millenials who will inherit the problem? That would seem to be the case. It does not matter if she is being used as a prop. If she is effective in focusing the issue with the generation that will inherit the problem then she is doing something positive.


Exactly right.

She reminds me of Joan of Arc---a young girl who had a vision and became a symbol of nascent French Nationalism. Joan of Arc was used as a prop both by the Dauphin and then by the English when they captured her and burned her at the stake, but none of that changes the fact that Joan of Arc's visions changed history.

Greta Thunberg is also a young visionary. Greta's vision of climate doom have motivated her to try to inspire the entire world to stop climate change. She inspired me months ago when she started her climate campaign in Sweden, and she is even more inspirational and powerful now. She may wind up changing history, if she can inspire enough people to listen to her message and force the UN and our political leaders to take real action.

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Greta Thunberg is the Joan of Arc of climate change
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 11:34:37

Tanada wrote:https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f7/e1/ea/f7e1eacb02b15275a56b3a8213e8ed9f.jpg

Image

Can you see me now?


Very well.

Mobile sculpture!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 11:36:05

Ibon and Plant,

I completely disagree. Nonsense arguing it.
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Re: Greta Thunberg

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 11:36:32

Ibon wrote:
I think the pathway forward is to manipulate the masses but with environmentally benign or better yet environmentally sustainable positions.


Thats important to do, but its not enough.

Greta Thunberg has targeted her efforts mainly at government officials. In Sweden she went on strike to pressure the Swedish government into take more action against climate change.

She has come to New to address the UN on climate change, in hopes of getting that body to do more then just ratify sham climate agreements like the Paris Accords. She participated in a student demo at the UN, but when the UN invited her to come in and talk she left the demo and went in to talk about climate change with the UN officials. And, of course, she has been invited to address the whole UN assembly on climate change.

Certainly the masses need to educated, but thats not what Greta Thunberg herself is doing. She is leading and inspiring masses of people with the ultimate goal of pressuring our government leaders to take real action against climate change, because thats the only way to really make progress against climate change.

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 11:54:01

Generation Z are more influenced by Ariana Grande and Belle Delphine's dirty bathwater than someone like Greta Thunberg. Just because she's young doesn't mean others her age will pay attention to her.

And Plant's newfound fanboi idolatry is a little misplaced considering how Greta would certainly shame his lifestyle as much if not more than I have, but then his opinions are always full of cognitive dissonance.

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-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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