[Newfie]

Ibon,

My point was more along the lines that when discussing the problems that face is its best to not restrict your discussion to climate change. You will run into some folks like Rocdoc123 who you can not reach, WITH THAT ARGUMENT.

When you engage these same folks on other issues then you sometimes find that in practical matters you are on the same page. Conservatives, real conservatives, have a penchant for living frugally and protecting natural resources, treating the Earth with respect. I’ve never found anyone who thinks throwing plastic bags to the wind is a good idea. Nor that we are depleting our aquifers. Nor that we should just dump pollutants into our earth, air, and water.

Yes there are a few who are so infected with Consumerism that they are beyond all reason, but they are far and few between.

I think the bigger and better argument to tackle is the concept of unlimited growth. It’s like someone trying to argue for a perpetual motion machine. And the science well and truly is settled on that, I thin Roc will even stipulate to that one.

While I would like folks to agree with me on climate change I will settle for them agreeing to reduce emissions in order to leave a habitable planet for their grandkids.

[rockdoc123]

I think the bigger and better argument to tackle is the concept of unlimited growth. It’s like someone trying to argue for a perpetual motion machine. And the science well and truly is settled on that, I thin Roc will even stipulate to that one.

If you go back to some of my original posts oh so many years ago I did point out that we were consuming way too much with no need. I always draw comparisons back to the way we were raised in the fifties and sixties...you didn't need a lot, clothes went a long way, we ate smaller portions but were never hungry, we enjoyed the great outdoors, played lots of team sports as well as individual sports. Society, to that end has advanced in a bad direction. I find this to be a topic that is too often confused with climate change. I'm a scientist, I read journals for my information and I base my opinions on the wide disparity in research results that are published not on the politicized information that appears in the press. I took a couple of courses in climate as an undergrad way back when...it was taught in the earth sciences curriculum back then and it was simply science-based. There were no degrees in climate science, if you wanted to study that area you got a degree in geophysics and took the climate courses available. Much of the basics that were taught back then still hold, the idea of CO2 being a greenhouse gas is of course not new, neither is the potential impacts of methane etc but there was also considerable effort put into explaining impacts of moisture, cloud cover, ENSO etc. It seems now anybody who believes CO2 is completely responsible for everything that has ever happened with climate whether they have a degree beyond high school or journalism school, have ever read a technical journal etc. seems to believe they are completely right....ignore all the evidence to the contrary, must stay a member of the team. Science in this area has taken a massive step backwards because of this very inappropriate group think.

[GHung]

It seems now anybody who believes CO2 is completely responsible for everything that has ever happened with climate whether they have a degree beyond high school or journalism school, have ever read a technical journal etc. seems to believe they are completely right....ignore all the evidence to the contrary, must stay a member of the team. ....

Or maybe in a world full of short attention spans and superficially educated/distracted people who are largely reactionary, CO2 is the low-hanging fruit. Want to lose most people's attention, just throw in a bunch of complexity. It's all about creating a narrative that encourages lower, well considered, levels of consumption, hopefully of all things.

Nobody cares much if you have an issue with how carbon emissions are portrayed, especially when you are in service of an industry that has the most to lose. They just want people to stop burning so much stuff.

[Newfie]

Roc,

See it’s a non argument, in the fundamentals we agree, stop consuming so much.

[Ibon]

Science in this area has taken a massive step backwards because of this very inappropriate group think.

We would not have this problem if we were 8 billion scientists on the planet. But we are not and so any mitigation to curb the imbalances of human overshoot will require narratives that folks not well versed in science can understand.

IF you think standing on the firm bedrock of rational science is the pathway well I have news for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKlSVNxLB-A

[rockdoc123]

Nobody cares much if you have an issue with how carbon emissions are portrayed, especially when you are in service of an industry that has the most to lose. They just want people to stop burning so much stuff.

as I keep repeating here to all of you "oh, he disagrees with me he must be an industry shill", I've been retired for many years, no longer own any oil company shares directly although a few bits and pieces in the various ETF....so hardly "in service of an industry that has the most to lose".

Perhaps you should consider that it is actually the average person who currently stands the most to lose if the oil industry were to just say....OK, we aren't looking for it or producing it anymore. Alternatives cannot replace oil and gas at the moment and it will be decades before that is even remotely possible and likely much longer when you try to replace it's uses outside of fuel. Your home, vehicle, clothes, much of the food you consume etc etc are all a product of the oil and gas that has been found, produced and refined into products.

[Newfie]

Roc,

The average guy is gonna loose because of all the damage that carbon does, even if not through CC.

The best way for the average guy to protect himself is to learn how to live with less and be happy.

[Ibon]

Roc,

The average guy is gonna loose because of all the damage that carbon does, even if not through CC.

The best way for the average guy to protect himself is to learn how to live with less and be happy.

Amen and worth noting that living with less actually increases wellbeing. At least this is the case at current excessive consumption levels.

[jupiters_release]

Guys,

If you stopped replying to rockdoc the positive feedback loop of noise in the thread will diminish greatly.

[Newfie]

We need to learn how to build a consensus for action and that means listening to dissenters.

Obviously I don’t agree with Roc in the CC issue but he and I largely agree that we need to limit fossil fuel use.

Many of the actions we want to see taken have multiple reasons for that action. We don’t have to agree on ever reason so long as we agree on the action.

Otherwise we just get bogged down in the argument and never actually do anything.

[Ibon]

Consensus will come gift wrapped and delivered external of all the bla bla bla of what we should be doing but aren't because can't come to an agreement.

[jupiters_release]

Obviously I don’t agree with Roc in the CC issue but he and I largely agree that we need to limit fossil fuel use.

Many of the actions we want to see taken have multiple reasons for that action.

You don't believe in global dimming effect of fossil fuel use?

Too late to stop this extinction, you'll feel better when you move pass the bargaining phase.

I'm all for stopping the geoengineering/annihilation of the atmosphere though for health reasons while we're still alive.

[Newfie]

I don’t believe I mentioned global dimming at all.

[jupiters_release]

I don’t believe I mentioned global dimming at all.

Limiting fossil fuels reduces the negative feedback of dimming!

[onlooker]

I don’t believe I mentioned global dimming at all.

Limiting fossil fuels reduces the negative feedback of dimming!

Yes, some like Guy say economic collapse and consequent cleaner air, would then almost immediately cause a rise of a few degrees in global temps. That would be disasterous

[Newfie]

Obviously I don’t agree with Roc in the CC issue but he and I largely agree that we need to limit fossil fuel use.

Many of the actions we want to see taken have multiple reasons for that action.

You don't believe in global dimming effect of fossil fuel use?

Too late to stop this extinction, you'll feel better when you move pass the bargaining phase.

I'm all for stopping the geoengineering/annihilation of the atmosphere though for health reasons while we're still alive.

I still don’t get the reference to dimming. I understand it and accept it will occur. And I’m no fan of geoengineering, i am arguing for power down.

And I think I was pretty clear that I think we are running on luck at this point. Not sure if I made that in this thread or another so I’ll repeat here.

IMHO we are running a near thing on extinction, it strikes me as inevitable that human population will shrink to a billion or under, I’m less sure about extinction. There are so many variables that it is impossible to make such claims with certainty. Who knows maybe we will get lucky and be hit by a big asteroid or take a killer virus or something else that stops our culture and keeps up from self extinction.

I believe it’s a good thing to be prepared to take advantage of luck when it arrives. It does no harm. In this case it may extend humanities stay a generation or two. Mass population loss may be without 2-3 generation, extinction is probably 200-300 years in the future. A lot can happen in 200-300 years, good and bad.

I see no advantage to publishing our species obituary yet.

[dissident]

While the deck chairs are being re-arranged on the global Titanic (e.g. discussions ad nauseam about hard facts that cannot be challenged) we are getting set for a massive surge of warming:

1) The ocean heat sink that has been effectively hiding the warming signal for 200 years is in transition to a regime where the surface layer will warm while the colder deep waters are no longer able to buffer the heat.

2) Aerosol effects that are related to the cloud albedo dimming effect during the 1960s and 1970s are going to come out of the closet. Biomass burning is increasing and the smoke acts as a warming agent. The issue is not the cooling underneath a smoke plume, it is the heat trapping by the smoke particles via solar radiation absorption and the persistent of this effect even when the plume disperses into a background. We saw the milky skies not associated with rain and low pressure systems last year. That white haze is a greenhouse "gas" that traps IR in the troposphere. Cloud scavenging is less effective as temperatures increase since more water can remain in the vapour phase and cloud condensation is reduced.

It is likely that we will see a surge of 1 C global warming in a very short period of time (e.g. a decade) in the near future. The fun is only just getting started.

[dohboi]

Ocean acidification could reduce the transport of carbon to the bottom of the ocean and carbon absorption capacity of the ocean:

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases ... 082319.php

The oceans act as a carbon sink and have already absorbed more than 40% of anthropogenic carbon emissions. The majority of this CO2 has been taken up by the Southern Ocean making these waters hotspots of ocean acidification (OA).

Lead author of the paper published in Nature Climate Change, Dr Katherina Petrou from the University of Technology Sydney, said that although changes in ocean pH have been shown to impact marine calcifying organisms, the consequences for non-calcifying marine phytoplankton are less clear.
"Previous studies reported a range of responses to OA [in phytoplankton] yet rarely considered how environmental pH shifts might affect silicification rates in diatoms," she says.

"Diatoms are unique phytoplankton in that they need silicic acid to produce silica cell walls. Under the microscope they look like beautiful glass jewellery boxes, but importantly, this dense, glass-like armour promotes sinking, which makes diatoms an important conduit for transport of carbon to the deep ocean where it can be stored for millennia."

Diatoms are responsible for around 40% of ocean productivity which means they play a major role in supporting marine food webs, sustaining life for millions of creatures, including humans.

The research was carried out the Australian Antarctic base, Davis station, by a team of scientists from the University of Technology Sydney (UTS), Southern Cross University (SCU), the Australian Antarctic Division (AAD) and the University of Tasmania. Using large 650 L experimental tanks, a temperature controlled 40-foot container and natural coastal water, their research was designed to investigate the effects of predicted future changes in ocean acidity on the community structure of the Antarctic phytoplankton.

"We were alarmed to find that diatoms were so negatively affected, with some species likely to have diminished silica production before the end of this century," says Dr Petrou.

In the context of global climate change, these findings are important because they reveal that OA can not only alter phytoplankton community composition, but also reduce diatom ballast (sinking ability), adds SCU based Kai Schulz. Loss of silica production and thus ballast could mean that fewer diatoms end up on the ocean floor, resulting in less atmospheric CO2 being removed from our atmosphere and transported for storage in the deep ocean.

"The only genuine way to circumvent this outcome, is to cut our greenhouse gas emissions and limit the acidification of our oceans," the researchers say. "

[Whitefang]

Interesting flix on the net, Geostorm 2017 blockbuster…..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOlYPSEzSc, trailer teaser.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostorm

Geostorm is a 2017 American science fiction disaster film directed, co-written, and co-produced by Dean Devlin in his feature film directorial debut. The film stars Gerard Butler, Jim Sturgess, Ed Harris, Abbie Cornish, Richard Schiff, Alexandra Maria Lara, Robert Sheehan, Daniel Wu, Eugenio Derbez, and Andy García. The plot follows a satellite designer who tries to save the world from a storm of epic proportions caused by malfunctioning climate-controlling satellites.
Principal photography began on October 20, 2014, in New Orleans, Louisiana. After poor test screenings, re-shoots took place in December 2016 under executive producer Jerry Bruckheimer, writer Laeta Kalogridis and new director Danny Cannon.[5] The film is the first co-production between Skydance Media and Warner Bros. The film was released by Warner Bros. in the United States on October 20, 2017, in 2D, Real D 3D and IMAX 3D. Despite grossing $221 million worldwide the film was labeled a box office bomb given its $120 million budget, losing the studio $74 million,[6] and received negative reviews, with criticism focused on the "uninspiring" story and "lackluster" visual effects.[7]

In 2019, following many catastrophic natural disasters, an international coalition commissions a system of climate-controlling satellites called "Dutch Boy", named after the story of Hans Brinker. After Dutch Boy neutralizes a typhoon in Shanghai, a Senate sub-committee reprimands chief architect Jake Lawson, because he brought "Dutch Boy" online (without authorization) and replaces him with his brother Max, who works under Secretary of State Leonard Dekkom.
Three years later, a UN team stationed in the Registan Desert comes across a frozen village. Makmoud Habib, an Indian engineer working on the International Climate Space Station (ICSS), copies data from the Afghanistan satellite onto a hard drive before being unexpectedly ejected into space. After convincing President Andrew Palma to conduct an investigation, Max persuades Jake to go to the ICSS to investigate. Another satellite increases temperatures in Hong Kong, causing gas explosions that nearly kill Max's college friend Cheng Long, the head of Dutch Boy's Hong Kong department.
Jake arrives at ICSS to examine the malfunctioning satellites (which are damaged afterwards and their data erased) with station commander Ute Fassbinder and her crew. They recover the hard drive, but hide it from the crew, suspecting a traitor, and examine the data, discovering that a virus has wiped out everyone's login access to the satellite and is causing the malfunctions. Suspecting Palma is using Dutch Boy as a weapon, Jake tells Max he needs to reboot the system to eliminate the virus which requires the kill code held by Palma. The ICSS staff neutralize malfunctioning satellites by deliberately knocking them offline via collisions with replacement satellites.
Back on Earth, Cheng discovers he and Max have lost login access and warns Max of a global cataclysm known as a "Geostorm" if the malfunction continues. Cheng is pursued to Washington, D.C. by a team of rogue government agents, who ultimately cause his death in a traffic incident, but not before he says "Zeus". Discovering Project Zeus simulates extreme weather patterns to create a Geostorm, Max enlists his girlfriend, Secret Service agent Sarah Wilson, to acquire the code.
During the Democratic National Convention (DNC) at Orlando's Moxley Arena, Max discovers Orlando is next to be targeted after a massive hailstorm hits Tokyo and part of Rio de Janeiro freezes over.
The ICSS team loses control of all operations as the virus initiates the self-destruct program. As more disasters strike around the world (including tornadoes in Mumbai, a heatwave in Moscow and a megatsunami in Dubai), Jake realizes Duncan is the traitor. In the ensuing confrontation, Duncan accidentally ejects himself into space while Jake escapes. As the crew evacuates, Jake stays behind to ensure the reboot completes.

Surely all science and fiction but are we not watching a script? Ali baba beats Pentagon?
G5 network has thousands of cheap 1 million dollar satellites orbiting the lower stratosphere, DNC is part of the play, treason and murder, genocidal maniacs, secret service shite, you name it. I think we are being groomed to accept our Smart Cities, our high tech prisons, a prison planet.
Skydance and Warner Bro's…….military planning a worldwide disaster, create problem, offer solution.
See, they did not expect Trump to win...twice and push them over the brink, forever.
Them party people, got careless, thought they could get away with everything, not anymore, Thank God, thanks to patriots, thank true parents.
What was Nexia cult? Child sex torture and murder, Hollywood elite, actors......ask Jim C. on his experience, he came out.
16000 members, dozens of convictions and lawsuits, with proof and testimonies.
Epstein case, 100 times that.

Anyway, deepstate were fully aware of abrupt CC since DoD Shakova presentation 2010, so they try implement their Global domination idiocy within a last panic mode of conduct before they get caught and banned or sacked or jailed or killed.
It is all falling apart for them, their weapons are being turned upon themselves, they will have nowhere to go, maybe some shelter up the antarctic peninsula if some make it across from Patagonia....bbbbrrrr
Hitler gang worked for them so they will have strong ties to where they went underground, our Royalty is tied to Argentina mob.

Is it not funny that we humans have such problems to go back to the moon? Stanly K. made fine pics and video in Africa...….fake news.
We have all been brought up in a fantasy world.
There is no way to know this if you have heard one side of the story all your life.
But is you are one of the writers, you should pay for the damage that you have caused to woman and children.
I am connected with drug lords, families that do business, there are things you do not do, no woman, no children.
Remind me of Leon, hitman taking care of hitgirl that later played in V for Vendetta as Eve.

Basicly everyone is fighting his own internal war in a personal world, two worlds I might say, a bit more accurate.
Oppressors and Oppressed will meet the same end, better leave them be.
Not to search, reach out for the spirit is to seek death which is nothing.
You need experience, personal power to move around beyond the barrier of perception we take for granted.
Problem is you die with your total being, physical you mind body and person in this perception and that other one, the luminous magical part that lives aware of you as a personality but has the option to go for the holy grail, be unified with you at death when the two meet.
Normal people under the reign of fear, our first enemy, die with a moment of freedom but cannot keep themselves together at the dark sea of awareness, you cannot swim into the deep ocean, huge waves....if you never learned this in your lifetime.

Tragic, you have all this power at you fingertips but you not dare use it.
We keep our shields, whatever we do and think, keeping us quiet and masters of the universe, the part we have words for, the little part of being.
Comes in tree flavours, bully sheep and preacher. One size fits all of humanity as we know it.
The only way to get stronger is to let go of our internal dialogue and see for yourself.
Now we all have to let go within one or two generations, maybe three, 30 to 50 years from now.
When the going gets tough…….
We have to change now, it is no option anymore.

[EnergyUnlimited]

While the deck chairs are being re-arranged on the global Titanic (e.g. discussions ad nauseam about hard facts that cannot be challenged) we are getting set for a massive surge of warming:

1) The ocean heat sink that has been effectively hiding the warming signal for 200 years is in transition to a regime where the surface layer will warm while the colder deep waters are no longer able to buffer the heat.

Could you explain it for me better?
I do not understand this process.
From what I know, heat transfer from surface layer of ocean to deep water is a very slow process.
How "abrupt transition" could happen?
Why surface waters were failing to warm appropriately until this transition?
It is an interesting subject.