Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 05 Jun 2019, 13:34:13

The ironic thing about all the fuss over offshore wind is the USS Enterprise when taken out of service could have been lightly modified into a mobile nuclear power station and parked in Boston to supply flexible power for another 50 years. (All 8 reactors working together can/could produce about 352 MWe of current, the modifications needed would be to re-rout the steam from propulsion to additional power generating turbines so once parked it would be a pure power plant.)
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 15995
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby GHung » Wed 05 Jun 2019, 15:53:38

Tanada wrote:The ironic thing about all the fuss over offshore wind is the USS Enterprise when taken out of service could have been lightly modified into a mobile nuclear power station and parked in Boston to supply flexible power for another 50 years. (All 8 reactors working together can/could produce about 352 MWe of current, the modifications needed would be to re-rout the steam from propulsion to additional power generating turbines so once parked it would be a pure power plant.)


Right. Let's park 8 seriously outdated 50s-era A2W nuclear reactors in Boston Harbor and just run the crap out of 'em. I'm sure you could get some out-of-work engineers to sign off on that, especially the metallurgy reports. If something goes wrong they can just pull the plug and scuttle the whole mess, make it a museum for the Grandkids to visit, or an artificial reef for the tourists to fish around for 10 bucks a pop..
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3088
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 16:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 29 Jul 2019, 06:55:47

I’ve had a favorable thought about off shore wind farms. I’m wondering how much the protection the foundations will provide to fish stocks. Perhaps they will create a substantial fish haven. That could be a good thing.

Exclusive: First big U.S. offshore wind project hits snag due to fishing-industry concerns
(Reuters) - Trump administration infighting is holding up approval of the first major U.S. offshore wind energy project, with agencies sparring over whether the proposal does enough to protect the fishing industry, according to interviews and agency documents.

FILE PHOTO: Power-generating windmill turbines are pictured at sunset at a wind park in Fins near Cambrai, France, February 5, 2019. REUTERS/Pascal Rossignol
The delays are a setback to President Donald Trump’s efforts to fast-track big energy infrastructure projects and could threaten the administration’s plans to launch a promising new domestic industry.

How the problem is resolved will shape the regulatory blueprint for a growing list of offshore wind developers seeking to tap in to rising U.S. demand for renewable energy, but who face objections from fishermen worried the turbines will affect commercial species or make fishing more difficult.



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1UO0EK
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15404
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 30 Jul 2019, 20:14:27

Newfie wrote:I’ve had a favorable thought about off shore wind farms. I’m wondering how much the protection the foundations will provide to fish stocks. Perhaps they will create a substantial fish haven. That could be a good thing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1UO0EK


I reckon a small bit of legislation requiring the foundations to have a coral like finish layer on the outside would do wonders, and the cost would be trivial for such a large foundation. We already know how to build artificial reefs both of steel and concrete so all you really need is to put the artificial reef skeleton on the outside of the pre planned foundations and viole' instant fish habitat.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 15995
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 30 Jul 2019, 21:47:21

I reckon a small bit of legislation requiring the foundations to have a coral like finish layer on the outside would do wonders, and the cost would be trivial for such a large foundation. We already know how to build artificial reefs both of steel and concrete so all you really need is to put the artificial reef skeleton on the outside of the pre planned foundations and viole' instant fish habitat.


in the right water depth and temperature you probably don't have to do too much. Small platforms in shallow waters around the world traditionally have been their own reef initiators. I remember the old aquarium in New Orleans used to have a huge tank in its entry way that had an old jackup sitting in it with reef growing all over it. Pretty cool aquarium as I remember had a whale shark, few sea turtles and a few giant tarpin.
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7684
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 03:00:00

Uncomfortable Truths

Unread postby jawagord » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 18:36:44

If Michael Moore can figure out green tech is not the answer perhaps he will turn a critical eye to the whole Climate emergency junk science industrial complex?

What if alternative energy isn’t all it’s cracked up to be? That’s the provocative question explored in the documentary “Planet of the Humans,” which is backed and promoted by filmmaker Michael Moore and directed by one of his longtime collaborators. It premiered last week at his Traverse City Film Festival.

“It turned out the wakeup call was about our own side,” Gibbs said in a phone interview. “It was kind of crushing to discover that the things I believed in weren’t real, first of all, and then to discover not only are the solar panels and wind turbines not going to save us … but (also) that there is this whole dark side of the corporate money … It dawned on me that these technologies were just another profit center.”

“We all want to feel good about something like the electric car, but in the back of your head somewhere you’ve thought, ‘Yeah, but where is the electricity coming from?

“I like so many people in the film and I’m one of those people who wanted to believe all of these years that that was the right path,” Moore said.

“It’s up to people who actually share the same values to sometimes call each other out and bring out the uncomfortable truths,” Gibbs said. “This is not a film by climate change deniers, this is a film by people who really care about the environment.”


https://ktla.com/2019/08/07/new-michael ... ve-energy/
Don't deny the peak!
jawagord
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Mon 29 May 2017, 10:49:17

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 10 Aug 2019, 10:08:15

LOS ANGELES (AP) — What if alternative energy isn’t all it’s cracked up to be? That’s the provocative question explored in the documentary “Planet of the Humans,” which is backed and promoted by filmmaker Michael Moore and directed by one of his longtime collaborators. It premiered last week at his Traverse City Film Festival.

The film, which does not yet have distribution, is a low-budget but piercing examination of what the filmmakers say are the false promises of the environmental movement and why we’re still “addicted” to fossil fuels. Director Jeff Gibbs takes on electric cars, solar panels, windmills, biomass, biofuel, leading environmentalist groups like the Sierra Club, and even figures from Al Gore and Van Jones, who served as Barack Obama’s special adviser for green jobs, to 350.org leader Bill McKibben, a leading environmentalist and advocate for grassroots climate change movements.

Gibbs, who produced Moore’s “Bowling for Columbine” and “Fahrenheit 9/11,” didn’t set out to take on the environmental movement. He said he wanted to know why things weren’t getting better. But when he started pulling on the thread, he and Moore said they were shocked to find how inextricably entangled alternative energy is with coal and natural gas, since they say everything from wind turbines to electric car charging stations are tethered to the grid, and even how the Koch brothers are tied to solar panel production through their glass production business.

“It turned out the wakeup call was about our own side,” Gibbs said in a phone interview. “It was kind of crushing to discover that the things I believed in weren’t real, first of all, and then to discover not only are the solar panels and wind turbines not going to save us … but (also) that there is this whole dark side of the corporate money … It dawned on me that these technologies were just another profit center.”

Both know the film is going to be a “tough pill to swallow.” It was a difficult eye-opener for them as well.

“We all want to feel good about something like the electric car, but in the back of your head somewhere you’ve thought, ‘Yeah but where is the electricity coming from? And it’s like, ‘I don’t want to think about that, I’m glad we have electric cars,'” Moore said. “I’ve passed by the windmill farms, and oh it’s so beautiful to see them going, and don’t tell me that we’ve gone too far now and it isn’t going to save us … Well, my feeling is just hit me with everything. I’m like let’s just deal with it now, all at once.”

It’s part of the reason why they had to make it independently. Gibbs said he tried for years to get an environmental group on board to help offset the costs, only to be turned down at every door. He was further disheartened when, in the film, he approaches people like Jones, McKibben and a local Sierra Club leader, and asks them about their stance on biofuel and biomass. Biomass, like wood and garbage, can be used to produce heat and is considered a renewable source of energy. It can also be converted to gas or liquid biofuels that can be burned for energy.

He finds every one ill-prepared to comment on their stance about the biomass process, which the documentary says requires cutting down enormous numbers of trees to produce the woodchips that are converted into energy. Neither McKibben nor Jones responded to request for comment from The Associated Press.

“I like so many people in the film and I’m one of those people who wanted to believe all of these years that that was the right path,” Moore said. “(But) I refuse to let us die out. I refuse to let this planet die.”

They were even nervous to show it to the festival crowd, where they expected maybe a “50-50 response.” Instead, they got a standing ovation. And there were even members of The Sierra Club there.

“It’s up to people who actually share the same values to sometimes call each other out and bring out the uncomfortable truths,” Gibbs said. “This is not a film by climate change deniers, this is a film by people who really care about the environment.”

Although the findings will be disheartening, both Gibbs and Moore say they hope that it inspires people to reset and start thinking differently.

“Now we can begin to come up with the right solutions that might make a difference … The film doesn’t have the answers but it will get us asking a better set of questions,” Gibbs said. “I really do trust that when millions of people are discussing an issue, answers will emerge … This is what we do as humans, we solve problems, but we’ve got to have the right questions.”


Michael Moore Questions Renewable Hype
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 15995
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 11 Aug 2019, 09:08:09

https://gcaptain.com/trump-delay-casts- ... wind-farm/

The Interior Department has ordered an additional study of the farm, proposed by Avangrid Inc. and Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Interior Secretary David Bernhardt said in an interview with Bloomberg News Friday. The project, which has drawn opposition from fishermen and coastal communities, had been scheduled to be operational by early 2022. The developers have warned delays could put it in jeopardy.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15404
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 15 Aug 2019, 19:08:51

Preliminary tests on kite wind generator.

https://gcaptain.com/flying-wind-power- ... in-norway/
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15404
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby StarvingLion » Fri 16 Aug 2019, 12:51:51

The Wind Scam is collapsing

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/ge ... grind-halt

Germany’s onshore wind power expansion threatens to grind to a halt
I will turn bochen787's face to alabaster.
StarvingLion
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1748
Joined: Sat 03 Aug 2013, 18:59:17

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 17 Aug 2019, 02:03:42

StarvingLion, thanks for posting such an upbeat article on the growth of wind energy. From the article:
Around the world, nearly 60 GW of new wind turbines are expected to go online in 2019.

Turns out this reversed a slowdown from last year with more capacity being added this year than in 2018 or 2017:
Wind Power Capacity Worldwide Reaches 597 GW. 50 GW were added in the year 2018, slightly less than in 2017 when 53 GW were installed.

The year 2018 was mainly characterised by new dynamics: While the European wind markets were on a decline, with most European states showing weak development, including Germany, Spain, France and Italy. At the same time, robust or even stronger growth has been observed in countries such as China, India, Brazil, many other Asian markets and also some African countries. The by far largest wind power market, China, installed an additional capacity of 21 GW and has become the first country with an installed wind power capacity of more than 200 GW. It has re-taken the growth path after a no-so-strong year in 2017 when a comparatively modest 19 GW were installed. China continues its undisputed position as the world’s wind power leader, with an accumulated wind capacity of 217 GW.

“The global transformation of the energy system towards renewable energy is on its way, and wind power is a major force in this development, having become a major pillar of power supply throughout the world. Some countries are making very good progress in accelerating wind power deployment rates. Such acceleration is imperative not only to achieve the objectives of the Paris Climate Change agreement and the Sustainable Development Goals, but also for every country to participate in the full socio-economic advantages of renewable energy.”
Wind Power Capacity Worldwide Reaches 597 GW, 50 GW added in 2018

Also, looks like Germany doesn't even have to add many more new turbines and yet it's wind power will continue to expand. This is thanks to repowering:
New technology means the additional capacity doesn’t mean vast numbers of new turbines littering the landscape, as aging models are replaced with new, more efficient ones -- a process known as “repowering”.

Total number of turbines does not have to grow much more
Turbines already operating on German land have a capacity of around 1.8 MW, but the average capacity of new turbines -- with hub heights around 130 metres -- is now some 3.3 megawatts (MW). Albers said future onshore models could reach up to 6 or 7 MW. There are currently around 29,000 onshore turbines in Germany, but BWE estimates that by the time the country goes carbon-neutral mid century, it will need only 30,000 turbines with a total capacity of 200 GW.
The oil barrel is half-full.
User avatar
kublikhan
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 4643
Joined: Tue 06 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Illinois

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 17 Aug 2019, 02:16:23

“It dawned on me that these technologies were just another profit center.”
So one of Michael Moore's biggest gripes with renewable energy is people are making money on it? Oh the travesty. If only people were losing billions of dollars on it.
The oil barrel is half-full.
User avatar
kublikhan
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 4643
Joined: Tue 06 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Illinois

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby EdwinSm » Wed 28 Aug 2019, 04:47:41

Wind mills might be in the "wrong path" ie in the flight path of birds, but according to this report of a study most seem able to avoid the windmills.

Most birds safe from windmills in Ostrobothnia

Meanwhile the first Finnish investigation into the potential health risks posed to birds by wind turbines in forested regions has discovered that the windmills have very little impact on bird populations.

Local paper Kaleva wrote that the study headed by biologist Ville Suorsa from tech company FCG took five years. The wind power parks in Northern Ostrobothnia, indeed anywhere in Finland, were surveyed for long-term risk factors for the first time.

Kaleva reports that the study observed bird behaviour for 324 days in the far northern regions of Simo and Ii, and 120 days in Kalajoki and Pyhäjoki. Monitors found a total of 48 birds that had collided with turbines, representing 19 species; not all of the birds found were killed by the impact.

No swans or geese were found in the set, despite being previously considered most at risk of injuring themselves on pylons and blades.

The bird that had the most trouble with dodging the power structures was the capercaillie or wood grouse. Kaleva writes that 13 of the 48 birds were of this species.

"Fowl of this kind have poor forward-directed vision," Suorsa said. "The bottom of the white wind power stations against a dark background may appear to these birds to be clearings in a forest, which they sometimes try to fly through."

However most birds, including migratory species, were found to be able to avoid the massive structures.


From the last news item in https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/wednesdays_papers_shooting_mysteries_videotaping_witnesses_birds_dodge_windmills/10941869
EdwinSm
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 601
Joined: Thu 07 Jun 2012, 04:23:59

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 04 May 2020, 11:48:12

Reviving this thread for those discussing wind and solar.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15404
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 04 May 2020, 11:53:55

Postby Newfie » Mon May 04, 2020 11:45 am

We have 2each 310watt panels and a wind generator and 4- 6volt GC batteries in a 12vdc system. If needed we run a 2kv in dryer to charge computer and drill batteries. Once in a while I’ll have to charge the main batteries.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15404
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 04 May 2020, 12:19:28

Newfie wrote:Postby Newfie » Mon May 04, 2020 11:45 am

We have 2each 310watt panels and a wind generator and 4- 6volt GC batteries in a 12vdc system. If needed we run a 2kv in dryer to charge computer and drill batteries. Once in a while I’ll have to charge the main batteries.


I have 12 300watt panels on pole mounts. Pole mounts are more expensive but I like to be able to tilt them as the season progresses. This would not matter further south so much. I also did not want to compromise the roof I have and I like the looks. Lots of people who drive up like the way they look. It is easy to wash them too. I have a 220/110 inverter and 48volt system. I have jelly Trojans but am looking to upgrade and take these batteries to the barn solar system. I am thinking about Battle Born Lithium Phosphate but still researching batteries. Before I had a system with 6 pannels and I considered doing a Bergey wind turbine. The reason I didn't is the issue with storms and of course, the power is different from wind. You need to dump it or shut them off if you don't need the power since I gather during the day solar with its ability to only draw what is needed is the way to go for me. I am also a prepper and a big turbine says to everyone around “here I am”. All solar fits my way of doing solar energy of gathering by day and not using batteries at night. This may not be the best but I like lowering battery cycling and I have my inverter in the house and they are noisy when in use. At night I like quiet. My batteries are ready to go becuase during the day they are just buffering the variable solar input. I am still learning and by no way an expert so if anyone has advice, I am all ears. In the past Ghung gave me many ideas to consider.
realgreenadaptation.blog
User avatar
REAL Green
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu 09 Apr 2020, 05:29:28
Location: MO Ozarks

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 04 May 2020, 13:56:20

It seems to me if communities/states believed Solar and Wind are actually the right path then building codes would be written to require new build houses to have solar roof on the south facing slope and a power wall integrated into the house system to provide as much solar electricity as possible. The Grid would become the distribution system integrating the thousands and thousands of house systems into the network for a flat monthly fee as they were constructed.

Given the dearth of this sort of government enforcement it seems clear that even the politicians know Solar is as much a scam as a solution. Most first time home buyers can not afford a solar home because adding another $20,000-$50,000 to your construction costs is a big hit. You can talk all day about how the system pays for itself over 7 years or whatever figure you pick, but the plain fact is you have to pay for it up front to get that "free" power in year 8 and beyond.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 15995
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 04 May 2020, 15:52:33

Didn't California mandate solar for all new residences last year? I've seen somewhere that they already have enough coming into the grid on sunny days to depress demand that then shoots up at sundown causing problems starting up generation plants to meet the after sundown demand . Of course power wall or equivalent batteries could smooth that out as could charging EVs where they are parked during daylight hours but that will take some time to build out the necessary infrastructure and adjust billing practices.
There is also the problem that solar and wind do not provide the flywheel inertia that traditional turbines and dynamos give to the grid that helps keeping cycles and voltages uniform.
All of these are problems that seem to be solvable within a few years.
As to the cost factor on a new home if it is required it will add to the value of the finished house so could be rolled into the mortgage and paid for over thirty years.
Recent houses I have seen are a "cost is no object" proposition so whats another 30 grand? Post COVID-19 things might be different but I doubt I'll see any installed down at the slow income trailer park.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 11617
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 04 May 2020, 17:59:11

Real Green,

Can you imagine lowering your energy use enough to get by with just 4 of those panels?

Our wind generator dumps through a resistor bank. One could dump it into a well insulated hot water storage container.

Every wind generator has its advantages. I like the utter simplicity of ours, no feathering blades or brakes or fancy controllers. About 70knots the blades might break off. But I try to avoid that situation for many reasons.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15404
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 04 May 2020, 18:12:52

I have not looked at current offerings but a 2KW wind turbine should not be that big a deal if you have a windy site. 2KW on a windy winter night charging the same battery wall the solar panels charge during summer days would be ideal especially if you can send excess to the grid. IIRC 2KW needs about a ten foot diameter blade circle.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 11617
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

PreviousNext

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests