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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 03 Jul 2019, 10:40:02

Plant, you display all signs of a hatred for Tesla, or the company founder Elon Musk, or both. I don't know what your problem is - perhaps you "invested" some cash in Tesla stock as I did an eternity ago in the Cape Wind offshore wind farm. Eventually I got over the sting of losing $7500.

So what is it, anyway? I understand that EVs are not truly competitive with ICE vehicles. Clearly they will be when gas surpasses $5/g again. Within my 35-year history in Silicon Valley, I remember the sting of $5.659/g, Regular grade. There is a reason so many EVs are sold in the valley, and they even encourage their use with single-occupancy EVs in the HOV lanes during rush hour.

Never-the-less, EVs are necessary to preservce the lifestyles of the Middle Class in the USA. Rural and suburban EVs, specificly. The cities and large towns should ban private vehicles, frankly, and encourage Uber/etc, electric bikes/scooters, and really good mass transit.

From the perspective of a retired EE, there is nothing close to Tesla vehicles, in terms of sophistication. Musk still has a lead on other EV vendors.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 03 Jul 2019, 18:32:46

KaiserJeep wrote:Plant, you display all signs of a hatred for Tesla, or the company founder Elon Musk, or both. I don't know what your problem is - perhaps you "invested" some cash in Tesla stock as I did an eternity ago in the Cape Wind offshore wind farm. Eventually I got over the sting of losing $7500.

So what is it, anyway?
I'm curious myself. Plant, you have consistently been anti-EV from the get go. And it's not like you have one particular thing you dislike about EVs. Instead you seem to spread FUD about anything you can find on EVs. And if someone brings up a logical counter to an argument you made you ignore them, snipe at them personally, and/or revert to spreading FUD. So what is it? Did Grandma get run over by an EV? Or perhaps is it something like this:

Today I want to come clean about something I feel very badly about. I cannot undo some of the things I have done, but hopefully this message will prevent other such occurrences in the future.

I am a paid basher.

Yes, it is true. Today is my last day at this company; I'm moving on to a new job. I've realized that there are more dignifying jobs out there that can pay me equally as well. But before I go, I want to explain a few things because this just isn't right and I won't feel good about myself until I expose this sham. It's hurt too many people and I don't want it on my conscience anymore. I can no longer live with a lie.

There are several companies engaged in the bashing business, ours is not the only one. However, I can tell you that not every basher in here is a paid basher. Having done this for a year, I can usually tell who is a paid basher and who is merely someone having a little fun. While unpaid bashers have a different motive than someone like me, they can be unwilling accomplices to helping me achieve my ultimate goal and they also spread rumor and confusion throughout a room, which also helps me.

There are three types of bashers here at Global Calumny Funds: Advanced, Intermediate and Beginner. An Advanced-level basher (also known as a Silver Tongued Devil) would spread false or misleading information about the company. They would deal in facts, countering every longs post with articles, news reports and opinion surveys that gave a negative impression about the company.

Finally, a Beginner-level basher (also known as a Pitchfork) would attempt to create confusion in the room by distracting other posters with satire, name calling and pointless arguments. The idea was to make sure no serious discussion of the stock could take place. A Pitchfork was usually a basher, but not always. Sometimes, we would throw in a hypster Pitchfork such as MONEYMADE and laptop and a pumper like Datatech to create the illusion of an argument going on. What was really funny (in a perverse way, I guess) was that Datatech and I sat next to each other, laughing the whole time.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 12 Jul 2019, 16:22:26

Tesla Model S spontaneously self-combusts while sitting in a parking garage in San Francisco

another-tesla-model-s-randomly-catches-fire-in-san-francisco-garage-report

The car wasn't charging or even plugged in. It just self-combusted.

I must confess I'm disappointed to read this since TESLA recently announced they had "fixed" the self-combustion problem. Maybe they will now issue a fix to correct their latest fix and really fix it.

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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 12 Jul 2019, 17:03:49

Plantagenet wrote:The car wasn't charging or even plugged in. It just self-combusted.

I must confess I'm disappointed to read this since TESLA recently announced they had "fixed" the self-combustion problem. Maybe they will now issue a fix to correct their latest fix and really fix it.
Cheers!

I definitely agree on the issue re announcing a fix previously (reducing charging speeds). Apparently Tesla TRIED to fix the problem, or did something to be able to claim they had it in hand.

Of course, as with so many things with Tesla, when the incidents continue to occur, just another ding in Elon's/Tesla's credibility.

OTOH, with the various reports in recent months, it's clearly not just Tesla that has this problem. HEV's increasingly are being reported with this kind of issue, so it's not just big BEV batteries, etc.

Given their track record re admitting to defects or fixing serious problems with their cars, Tesla won't do anything expensive to fix the problem until they are forced to. Their financials are already terrible, and when they go to the markets to borrow money, the terms are getting worse.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Wed 21 Aug 2019, 14:14:59

Pulled that one right out of your arse, eh? Feel better now?
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 21 Aug 2019, 15:40:27

StarvingLion wrote:Lets all go to Scamerica and run a Solar Panel scam.

Ghung the Fake Solar Peasant will be proud!

Don't worry the stock won't go down, just another Mafia.

Tesla is a fiasco re quality across a large range of it's products.

This doesn't make solar panels "a scam", except in the delusional minds of certain people.

Of course, the Tesla bears are having a field day with this, and rightfully so.

Given all Musk's misleading comments, calling Tesla a "scam" is starting to look less silly, although they do make real products -- just with an alarming string of quality issues and with an alarming record on customer service (given the scale of complaints and the concerns from reputable sources like Consumer Reports, re the frequency of problems in customer surveys).

So if you want your hobby here to call things scams, why not point at things which at least MIGHT qualify, like Tesla (unless and until it proves otherwise by fixing its quality and service reputations, which aside from endless Musk lip flapping, it seems far from doing).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 21 Aug 2019, 15:46:32

All I can say is it takes a special kind of incompetence to make solar panels of all things catch fire. No batteries there. The amount of delusion Tesla fanbois need to be under to maintain their unwavering support is unprecedented.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 21 Aug 2019, 16:48:57

asg70 wrote:All I can say is it takes a special kind of incompetence to make solar panels of all things catch fire. No batteries there. The amount of delusion Tesla fanbois need to be under to maintain their unwavering support is unprecedented.

Yeah, per the articles I read there were MASSIVE problems re the installers doing the job right, safety checks, basic things like grounding, etc.

It's as though no one is really in charge of anything except making grand pronouncements about future success.

Hmmmmm. What does that remind me of, re Tesla? I'll think of it eventually. :roll:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Wed 21 Aug 2019, 17:18:55

Not sure what Tesla's PV issue is. I have panels from four different manufacturers (my first 4 Siemens panels, manufacture date 10/94, still outputting at/near full rating) and have had exactly zero problems. It could be because I installed them properly myself, but there is simply not much to go wrong with the panels themselves, at least in terms of catching fire and all that. I also installed quality balance-of-system components and have had no problems beyond replacing one cooling fan on the manufacturer's recommendation, parts provided free-of-charge, post warranty period. Twenty+ years off-grid, perhaps the best investment I'll ever make.
I don't own any Tesla products, and, as with Apple, I'll never own any Tesla products (unless I get something of theirs for free just to play with and abuse). As for Musk, I'm a big fan of SpaceX. I never miss a launch. Cool factor is over the top.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 01:20:54

GHung wrote:Not sure what Tesla's PV issue is.


I do. Elon Musk.

The fish rots from the head down.

I have had trouble keeping up with executive departures lately, BTW, including Elon's right-hand-man JB Straubel (IMHO, a very serious inflection point)

Here's the most recent:

https://electrek.co/2019/08/21/tesla-he ... ructuring/

If it keeps going like this Tesla will be nothing but Musk with bloodshot eyes running around the factory by himself with a bunch of empty redbull cans stacked against the walls.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 09:16:46

asg70 wrote:
GHung wrote:Not sure what Tesla's PV issue is.


I do. Elon Musk.

The fish rots from the head down.

I have had trouble keeping up with executive departures lately, BTW, including Elon's right-hand-man JB Straubel (IMHO, a very serious inflection point)

Here's the most recent:

https://electrek.co/2019/08/21/tesla-he ... ructuring/

If it keeps going like this Tesla will be nothing but Musk with bloodshot eyes running around the factory by himself with a bunch of empty redbull cans stacked against the walls.


Yes. Musk built, installed, wired, and personally inspected the PV arrays that caught fire? Thanks!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 09:55:22

GHung wrote:Yes. Musk built, installed, wired, and personally inspected the PV arrays that caught fire? Thanks!


Boy did you miss my point.

My point is that mismanagement trickles down into these sorts of quality-control problems. He is ultimately responsible. Read up on how he specifically bucks industry standards, thinking they're unnecessary. His naivete and arrogance is his undoing.

The joke I cracked was about him creating a hostile work environment which makes it so nobody will want to work there, combined with his micromanagerial style of getting into everyone's business when he's in fact not a jack of all trades the way he thinks he is.

I thought all of this was obvious but apparently not.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 13:43:11

GHung wrote:
GHung wrote:Not sure what Tesla's PV issue is.

I'm no electrician by any means, but a couple really blatant things caught my eye in the CNBC article I read about it:

Walmart claimed, among myriad complaints, that “Tesla routinely deployed individuals to inspect the solar systems who lacked basic solar training and knowledge.” In the suit, they also alleged that Tesla failed to ground its solar and electrical systems properly, and that Tesla-installed solar panels on-site at Walmart stores contained a high number of defects that were visible to the naked eye, and which Tesla should have found and repaired before they led to fires.


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/20/walmart ... tores.html

(Red font mine, for emphasis).

Now, as cheap as Walmart is re operations, I very much doubt this is just made up. Presumably, if their legal team has the intelligence of a carrot, they'll have photographic evidence of the visual faults for the court case. And objective documentation for the other complaints.

And, given Tesla's reputation for blatant quality problems in their auto products overall at an alarmingly frequent rate vs. the competition, though this sounds really, really bad -- it also sounds like the kind of problems a Tesla product might well have, real world -- IMO.

Reputation matters.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 13:58:11

Another article with more detail / background on the Tesla Solar Roof fires at Walmart.

If the allegations are even remotely true, this has to be TERRIBLE news for Tesla. And again, given the "three stooges" way the car operations are run, per incidents and customer complaints in many articles and that trend being verified by overall data from Consumer Reports, my instinct is to believe Walmart's overall side of the story.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/factbox- ... 38593.html

Oh, and this definitely makes me more cautious about solar panels on my roof in general. I was already concerned about the roof leaking / roof warranty issue. But add to that the fire risk and the way so many companies don't do consistent work (not just solar companies) generally, and this doesn't look like a no-brainer to me -- even IF the economics hold up if nothing goes wrong. (I might still consider a set for my back yard, away from the house, if the economics are right).

But of course given the amount of Musk worship that exists, I expect people will go right on having Tesla install solar panels on their houses.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 15:08:49

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Another article with more detail / background on the Tesla Solar Roof fires at Walmart.

If the allegations are even remotely true, this has to be TERRIBLE news for Tesla. And again, given the "three stooges" way the car operations are run, per incidents and customer complaints in many articles and that trend being verified by overall data from Consumer Reports, my instinct is to believe Walmart's overall side of the story.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/factbox- ... 38593.html

Oh, and this definitely makes me more cautious about solar panels on my roof in general. I was already concerned about the roof leaking / roof warranty issue. But add to that the fire risk and the way so many companies don't do consistent work (not just solar companies) generally, and this doesn't look like a no-brainer to me -- even IF the economics hold up if nothing goes wrong. (I might still consider a set for my back yard, away from the house, if the economics are right).

But of course given the amount of Musk worship that exists, I expect people will go right on having Tesla install solar panels on their houses.


Purely for clarity's sake, from your link:

Walmart hired SolarCity to install solar panel systems on at least 244 of its stores. Tesla bought SolarCity in 2016, and Walmart alleges that Tesla did not fix the problems it inherited and was negligent itself. .....


So Tesla apparently didn't manufacture or install these products, only failed to fix the problems it bought into.

Then the article goes on to say:

It found Tesla put wires near sharp points and metal edges, used incorrect connectors that built up heat and failed properly to tighten connectors, used plastic tools with insufficient strength and plumbing tools, and improperly grounded systems, and kept poor records. ......


Uh,,, see above where Solar City did the installations. Tesla's alleged failure was in not vetting the quality of the installs it "inherited", and/or not correcting problems properly . Also:

Over the course of Walmart inspections it says it finds hotspots in solar panels' cracked sheets, compromising electrical insulation. ....


I have over two decades of fairly deep experience with PV panels of all types and can't make sense of this allegation. All of the problems I have seen regarding "hot spots", fried connections, burned wires, etc. have all been due to poor connections, bad/improper hardware (especially using stainless steel as a conductor), bad wiring (especially undersized wiring or using exposed THHN), higher than recommended voltages, and lack of proper protections (fuses, breakers, grounding, bonding, etc.). I've never seen a PV panel that overheated electrically (internally) or had electrically related "hotspots". PV panels tend to fail "safe". The junctions and diodes go first which means an open circuit. And note, I've never had ANY of these issues with my own installations. I over-engineer everything and keep voltages in a reasonable range. Then, again, I've never worked with Solar City panels. Not sure why they would deviate from industry standards (if they did) which are mature and well proven.

Probably billions of PV panels have been installed worldwide, millions have been in service for years/decades, and I've heard of very few catastrophic failures; virtually all related to installation and balance-of-system issues. As you allude to, using Solar City / Tesla installations as a benchmark for PV reliability and safety is like using the crappiest car as the benchmark for automobiles.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 16:31:01

GHung wrote: Tesla apparently didn't manufacture or install these products, only failed to fix the problems it bought into.


Musk and Tesla knew all about these problems when Tesla bought Solar City. Musk was one of the co-founders of Solar city along with two of his cousins and Musk remained a major shareholder in Solar City stock shares at the time of the buyout by Tesla.

So why did Musk have one of his companies (Tesla) buy another one of his companies (Solar City)?

Solar City stock was way down and Musk would've lost a lot of money if Solar city went bankrupt so Musk had Tesla buy Solar City to bail himself out (and bail his cousins out) from taking huge losses in Solar City stock.

I and many others predicted that Tesla would be hurt by its Solar City acquisition, and sure enough its happening. The buyout was a good deal for Musk personally, but not so great for Tesla shareholders who now are holding the bag on a huge but poorly run money-losing acquisition.

Cheers!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 20:51:29

The SolarCity acquisition is a separate blunder altogether. Tesla was aware SolarCity was loaded with debt and a money-loser but there's no evidence it knew of fire-hazards. What IS clear from the data is that Tesla attempted to cut-corners, which is part of its overall modus-operandi, and naively thought nothing bad would come of it. Musk keeps thinking he doesn't have to follow established industry best-practices and each and every time that bites him in the ass.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 25 Aug 2019, 11:00:34

Now Amazon is also complaining that the solar cells that SolarCityTesla sold them are also spontaneously combusting, just like the ones sold to Wal-mart.

What is it with Musk and the self-combusting products? Is it just a coincidence that his cars sometime self-combust and so do his solar cells?

Image
Yo Musk.....why products go boom?

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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:21:04

Vanity Fair has just published a major expose exposing the financial shenanigans Musk pulled off when he had Tesla buy Solar City (and bail him and his cousins out from huge financial losses)

how-elon-musk-gambled-tesla-to-save-solarcity

Some of the major reveals in the article:

1. The Solar City "solar roof" product that Musk hyped in 2016 to get Tesla to buy Solar City was apparently a phony mock up. To this day the product still hasn't been released and there is no date set for future release.

2. New York State invested 750 million in a Solar City factory to make the "solar roof" tiles that were never made....its possible some of that money was shifted into Tesla

3. Musk effectively controlled the TESLA Board of Directors that voted to buy Solar City---a clear conflict of interest since Musk himself had huge investments in Solar City

4. Solar City was plagued with quality control issues on its products all along...this isn't a new development.

Cheers!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 26 Aug 2019, 14:29:36

Plantagenet wrote:Vanity Fair has just published a major expose exposing the financial shenanigans Musk pulled off when he had Tesla buy Solar City (and bail him and his cousins out from huge financial losses)

how-elon-musk-gambled-tesla-to-save-solarcity

Cheers!

I would also point out that Bethany McLean, the author of this piece, was the co-author of the outstanding book "The Smartest Guy in the Room" -- the excellent, detailed story of the Enron scandal.

Despite all the FUD the Tesla bulls are throwing at this, trying to discredit it, just having her name on the article says a LOT re its likely overall credibility, IMO.
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