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Degrowth Thread

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 17 Aug 2019, 19:58:11

I’ve recently read a couple of books that talked about the power of myth, or abstraction if you like. One theory is that it is the ability to believe in these myths that has allowed us to develop groupings larger than a tribe. May be something to that.

Some thing that learning agriculture put us on this bad patch, others say mastering fire, or language. Myths are another of those theories.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 17 Aug 2019, 21:01:56

Newfie wrote:I’ve recently read a couple of books that talked about the power of myth, or abstraction if you like. One theory is that it is the ability to believe in these myths that has allowed us to develop groupings larger than a tribe. May be something to that.

Some thing that learning agriculture put us on this bad patch, others say mastering fire, or language. Myths are another of those theories.

Yes certainly we have a tendency to follow group think and thus blend in. Herd mentality
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 17 Aug 2019, 21:10:50

Myths tie a society together in a common belief system, they can be irrational even and can persist for long periods as long as they are benign to ecological principals. If they contradict ecological principals they are doomed. Period.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby EdwinSm » Sun 18 Aug 2019, 12:03:33

The economic playbook is being rewritten with the idea of negative interest. Here in Finland one of the major local banks is talking about charging customers interest to have money in a savings account, and we had to close my wife's saving accounts because her balance was too low attracting monthly fees.

I am sure that negative interest rates can give a good economic base to degrowth!
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 19 Aug 2019, 06:58:05

Ed,

That’s really interesting. Lots of ramifications. I don’t think the economists can conceive of an sustainable economy. It would surely require major modifications to our culture.

Doable?
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 11 Sep 2019, 06:48:39

Came across this clip last night. Powerful stuff.

https://youtu.be/dedzkxCQOag

It’s from Jimmy Carters lCrisis of Confidence” speech. As a young man I did not listen to this speech, or if I did I did not HEAR the message. Or maybe I did take delivery of the message and just forgot where I first heard it.

Full text here. It extremely interesting to look back upon.

https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speech ... idence.htm
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 11 Sep 2019, 12:03:54

Newfie wrote:Came across this clip last night. Powerful stuff.

https://youtu.be/dedzkxCQOag

It’s from Jimmy Carters lCrisis of Confidence” speech. As a young man I did not listen to this speech, or if I did I did not HEAR the message. Or maybe I did take delivery of the message and just forgot where I first heard it.

Full text here. It extremely interesting to look back upon.

https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speech ... idence.htm


Wow. Indeed. That famous line about what did the Eastern Islanders think when they cut the last tree. One day historians will look over these archives and wonder....." They actually knew what was going on, they made speeches decades before. How could they have been so twisted to do absolutely nothing about it"
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 08 Oct 2019, 20:00:43

I’ve been thinking about resource depletion recently, how we need to look at soil, water, and oil as resources to be husbanded. And I was thinking how climate change was different, not a resource depletion issue.

But then....it struck me that...

If you say that our atmosphere has a certain capacity to absorb green house gasses, a LIMITED capacity to absorb these gasses, the climate change can also be described l, accurately, as a resource depletion issue. We are depleting the atmospheres ability to absorb our excess carbon.

I think that is a useful formulation in describing the problems we face, if we can describe them more simply but more universally then they become clearer and the corrective actions become more cohesive and more clear.

We are facing serious resource depletion issues on many front because of our excess usage. The solution is that we need to reign in usage on all fronts. Degrowth is a necessary element, the central element required to bring Earth back to a sustainable balance.

Arguing minor details of one or the other elements is not required, the general principal should be obvious to the most casual observer, we can not over spend our savings account.

That this simple but fundamental concept is in doubt by most Americans is a testament to the power of the Consumerist propaganda we have been fed for the past century or so.

Yet there is great truth to the simple maxim that we can not expect to overspend our accounts without consequence. It just needs to be said, repeatedly, in the face of the obvious lies we have been told. Eventually folks will see the truth, too late to avoid dire consequences, but the sooner the better.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 12 Oct 2019, 18:29:38

Hyperconsumerism has been also said to have religious characteristics,[10] and have been compared to a new religion which enshrines consumerism above all, with elements of religious life being replaced by consumerist life: (going to) churches replaced by (going to) shopping malls, saints replaced by celebrities, penance replaced by shopping sprees, desire for better life after death replaced by desire for better life in the present, and so on.[7] Mark Sayers notes that hyperconsumerism has commercialized many religious symbols, giving an example of religious symbols worn as jewelry by non-believers.[7]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperco ... cteristics
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 12 Oct 2019, 19:12:49

Not sure these ideas should reside in the Degrowth Thread but I don’t want to start a new thread and they may end up working here.

A couple of weeks ago I came across an article showing a strong difference in younger folks. Two groups: A is socially active and NOT lonely while B is socially active but reports as LONELY. Group A is far more likely to be engaged in an organized religion while Group B far more likely to be engaged in a POLITICAL group.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/artic ... 41374.html

Now also reading about consumerism and religion it seems that there is a strong trend away from organized religions towards consumerisim. Or perhaps more accurately the consumer portion of our society has co-opted elements from religion and visa versa. Brands demand brand loyalty and give back a sense of belonging, of defining ones self. The argument is that once we turned to religion to find our self esteem, to know that we were the right kind of person. And that process involved how well we confirmed to the societal code. More recently that process has been co-opted by Brands and they define our position in life. We no longer ask if we are moral but if we have the correct shoes or brand of car. Through advertising we are programmed to strive for some ultimate higher state that is defined by the brands; Nirvana would be something like Gucci, BMW, and the Bold New Look Of Kohler. We are never satisfied because our image of perfection is consumer based and there is always some “better” brand that were we to acquire it we would become “better” people.

Far from the criteria being God the criteria has become ourselves. Now once we choose our identity, much of the traditional trappings of religion come with it. There are sins, unclean things, demons, angels, and priests. The objects that fulfill these roles merely change.


The problem in terms of religious demographic then becomes that our analysis of religion is flawed. If a raver of the late 1990’s is engaged in a fundamental religious practice, as is an anarchist protestor against globalism, then the rise of the Nones is not really about no religion. You can, I think, already see this in the explanations by the Nones for why they left religion. Politics is a common explanation (often a disagreement with the more socially conservative politics of more conservative religion) but so too are traditional beliefs. Yet, I think the notion that humans have a basic religious drive is a very strong hypothesis. We’re thus seeing through consumerism the rise of non-religious religions that can provide the sense of meaning and “spirituality” people seek.


This is a very difficult and complex concept that is impossible to treat fairly here. I’m attaching a single link that I found interesting and thoughtful. There is a LOT of current literature on this topic. Google searches for “capitalism religion” “Consumerisim religion” and the like will provide many scholarly hits.

https://www.timesandseasons.org/harchiv ... index.html

Ibon,
This line of inquiry makes me think of your considerations about how we may evolve through the bottle neck. I’m still not convinced there is an adequate feedback mechanism. However I do believe that something significant is going on at THIS time. Though you might find some of this interesting, and perhaps more stimulating that the endless partisan baiting.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 14 Oct 2019, 14:04:27

Well here is some good news.

https://theness.com/neurologicablog/ind ... table-cme/

According to this we have a 12% chance of a CME (Coronal Mass Ejection) within a decade. That would knock the socks off the economy and give us some breathing space. Maybe.

Not a lot of faith in this stories probabilities, but we can hope.
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