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Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 21:50:47

Ibon wrote: "The demographics are not looking very good for you homophobic, culturally diverse phobic, xenophobic obsolete baby boomers"

Well put. I think that's why they seem to be basically in the process of dismantling democracy, because if we have real democracy in the coming years, they lose.

ralphy--interesting point!
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 22:24:17

ralfy wrote:Neither is seen in current circumstances.


Not exactly. We're seeing the worst of both outcomes, which is a TEMPORARY period of SEEMINGLY unlimited energy (only in the first world, of course) and consequent overpopulation which will EVENTUALLY crossover into a Malthusian catastrophe. The longer that temporary period lasts the more uncomfortable it will be ala Mouse Utopia.

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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Cog » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 22:48:33

dohboi wrote:Ibon wrote: "The demographics are not looking very good for you homophobic, culturally diverse phobic, xenophobic obsolete baby boomers"

Well put. I think that's why they seem to be basically in the process of dismantling democracy, because if we have real democracy in the coming years, they lose.

ralphy--interesting point!


It's called a constitutional republic. You don't even know what form of government we have.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby clif » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 02:37:34

Picking at the details while denying the truth unfolding before your eyes is one way to keep your head firmly inserted in your nether regions
How cathartic it is to give voice to your fury, to wallow in self-righteousness, in helplessness, in self-serving self-pity.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 12:05:03

Living with your mind too fixated in the future is a great way not to be able to handle present conditions. Since doom has now been forestalled by over a decade, I'd say you have to know where we ARE in addition to where we're GOING.

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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby tire » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 13:08:00

Ibon wrote:Crazy crazy crazy.


We were talking the value of farm labor and farming and what is best for the nation. You brought up a guest worker program which I agreed is the right way of going forward.

And then you bring up Christians? I'm sorry but I don't think I can follow. What does this have to do with the discussion at hand?

Ibon wrote:Doch, Ich habe Dich nicht falsche eingeschaetzt!

Aber ich wohl dich. I thought you were more nuanced, intellectually.

I read many of your post, I was drawn and fascinated by your musings of how external pressure shape values and beliefs of a people. I also read your church/christian bashing posts. That surprised me, because you seem to be preaching an awful lot yourself, lately.

Let's take it back to basics, I still have hope. Are you in? Lengthy posts don't go well, people tend to not read, and even less understand. That was my bad, I wrote a lot and on top of that in a language that is not my first. That might have contributed to you not understanding much of what I wrote.

So let's define and agree on this first before we continue.
Do you agree that "the best interest" you claim to know so well is a very personal construct. One man's "best interest" is not another man's best interest.

This is really the basic of the discussion. If we don't agree on this, and you keep on claiming that only YOU know the "best interest" then I'm afraid, there won't be any discussion possible.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby tire » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 13:18:14

radon1 wrote:
tire wrote: But what would have happened if those same mexicans were simply not available?

The economy would enter permanent stagnation/recession/depression. The growth is based on incorporation of lower paid workers. No lower paid workers - no growth.


radon1. I'm sorry you make the mistake a lot of people do on this forum. You quote out of context. Is it on purpose, or just an oversight? I cannot tell.

The keyword in the sentence is "were". It's the past tense. Meaning when the mexicans IN THE PAST, 50 YEARS AGO, were not available. At a time when they were not yet an integral part of the economy.

So what do you think would have happened? How do you think the US would look like now? Do you think the land would be empty now? Everybody starved because only mexicans are capable of doing farm work?
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 16:22:30

tire wrote:One man's "best interest" is not another man's best interest.
This is really the basic of the discussion. If we don't agree on this, and you keep on claiming that only YOU know the "best interest" then I'm afraid, there won't be any discussion possible.


This. When that tone is struck it comes across as patronizing and it turns me off.

Image

One can question the status quo, and one can suggest that this or that lifestyle might be better, and one can speak from personal experience about trying out different lifestyles, but just don't try to force anything down people's throats.

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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 19:20:00

tire wrote:
So let's define and agree on this first before we continue.
Do you agree that "the best interest" you claim to know so well is a very personal construct. One man's "best interest" is not another man's best interest.

This is really the basic of the discussion. If we don't agree on this, and you keep on claiming that only YOU know the "best interest" then I'm afraid, there won't be any discussion possible.


I give my opinions. Sometimes it might sound preachy, that is possible. When you mentioned this urgency to immediately deport immigrants as part of a guest worker program, that is what I interpreted as your tendency toward being a xenophobe. It seems we are heavily laden with this xenophobia on this site so I may be over reacting some in your case. I brought up the over riding cultural attributes of latinos that are here as immigrants to point out how they are actually predisposed to being more republican than democrat in their beliefs and that the only reason latinos today are predominantly democrat is because the republicans seem to only want a white tent. People of color not desired. They ignore demographics to their peril even with all the gerrymandering and all the rest they cannot survive as a majority party relying on aging angry baby boomers. It is just that simple.

50 years of informal immigration with both parties complicit has created the situation we have today where the lives of immigrants and the work they do on farms, factories and as domestic workers is not something you can just unwind by inventing an emergency out of it. It will take time to deal with this with grace and humanity as well as not disrupting the economy as in the case of many farmers.

Is that nuanced enough?
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 02:58:20

Ibon wrote: I brought up the over riding cultural attributes of latinos that are here as immigrants to point out how they are actually predisposed to being more republican than democrat in their beliefs and that the only reason latinos today are predominantly democrat is because the republicans seem to only want a white tent.

I disagree.
You probably have "cuban bias". Their community on Florida is conservative.
Other Latinos are socialists and Democrats are their natural allies.
Look on Latin and South America. Everywhere socialist revolutions and populist governments together with assiociated poverty. Mexico is socialist hellhole.

People of color not desired.

I would rephrase it as "retards not desired".
Substantial majority of people of color are low IQ retards and those who are not like Far East Asians are well accepted by nearly all Whites.
But again, in retarded progressive narration Far Eastern Asians are now called "white supremacists" as miss Michigan have recently reported.

They ignore demographics to their peril even with all the gerrymandering and all the rest they cannot survive as a majority party relying on aging angry baby boomers. It is just that simple.

It is quite funny how hippies (baby boomers) are turning conservative in large numbers.
There are certain cultures which simply cannot coexist for long.
Latinos, Blacks or Middle Easterners mixed with Whites or Far Esterners in *all inclusive society* and left to themselves will *always* outbreed the latter and cause societal ruin.
I agree, that United States already got critical demographic blows, and it will turn into Third World hellhole. Together with Western Europe it will be a caution against mixing civilized nations with barbarians, against women rights and against other similar ideas.

IMO Western Civilization is already a done deal, it is now in terminal phase and within 30-100 years it will no longer be a going concern.

50 years of informal immigration with both parties complicit has created the situation we have today where the lives of immigrants and the work they do on farms, factories and as domestic workers is not something you can just unwind by inventing an emergency out of it. It will take time to deal with this with grace and humanity as well as not disrupting the economy as in the case of many farmers.

Yes, Americanistan is coming. It is a foregone conclusion and american Whites must accept it or be ready (like Cog) to die with gun in hand while defending a glorious past... and loose.

Civilized future belongs to Chinese. Maybe to Japs too. Indians may claw out of hellhole as well with some luck. Some whites, mainly Slavs due to geographic location, still stand a chance to preserve themselves, perhaps as satelites of China.
Other Whites are a prey. Overwhelmed by barbarians they will have no other choice than to mongrelize with low IQ retards and cease to exist as a distinct ethnicity. Latin Civilization is on its way out.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby radon1 » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 04:42:02

tire wrote:
The keyword in the sentence is "were". It's the past tense. Meaning when the mexicans IN THE PAST, 50 YEARS AGO, were not available. At a time when they were not yet an integral part of the economy.

So what do you think would have happened?


They WERE available 50 years ago, but they were not in demand. Internal resources were sufficient for ensuring the economic growth. Economic development is dynamic.

Had they not been available, we would be living on another planet with a different historical context.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 05:22:31

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Yes, Americanistan is coming. It is a foregone conclusion and american Whites must accept it or be ready (like Cog) to die with gun in hand while defending a glorious past... and loose..


Hey Cog, how come it takes an eastern european to be so refreshingly clear on his position regarding race? Why don't you have the balls to spell it out? Why all these dog whistles?

Come on man, time to come out of the shadows.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 06:59:39

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Other Latinos are socialists and Democrats are their natural allies.
Look on Latin and South America. Everywhere socialist revolutions and populist governments together with assiociated poverty. Mexico is socialist hellhole..


You have no real knowledge of this territory EU. The ping ponging back and forth between left and right governments in most of Latin America for the past 5 decades have left the majority of citizens in this region no longer adhering to either socialist ideology or putting much faith in neo liberal democracy and globalization. I would even say that most Latinos are more sophisticated than American citizens in that they have become jaded by the false promises of demagogues, whether right or left. Americans are still innocent by comparison to these movements. Latinos see their governments as mainly corrupt and incompetent. The main ideology of most latinos is a desire for economic stability.

Best example at the moment would be Colombia. I traveled there extensively on business in the 90's. Still deep in crisis with leftist FARC, private militias, narco organizations and a government torn apart. Today the country is opening up, relieved to leave this violent chapter behind them, if you go there you will see a collective culture with a feeling of liberation from all these extremes. Well educated society, some of the best universities in Latin America. Still have many problems and security issues in some local areas within the country but all in all much more stable. Tourism is booming. Citizens are not in a funk. They are experiencing a renaissance.

A Colombian today becoming a US citizen would not be much enamored by socialist ideology. They are too smart after living through the decades of conflict to listen to any leftest bullshit promises. They would also recoil at the demagoguery of Trump. If anything Colombians want a strong handed government that guarantees peace. That is why they would tend to vote republican rather than democrat. From their point of view.

Latinos have been forced out of political naivete by suffering decades of government incompetency. Americans are just entering into this education.

Since the majority of citizens in Latin America are poor the government policies that provide basic social services are embraced but do not believe this is because they support socialism. It is simply a neccesity to keep social stability. Health care in Panama is socialized, it is very poor quality but you would not see this abandoned for private health care because people are just too poor.

At some point the US will have to embrace solutions that will look on the surface like socialism as well in order to maintain social stability. Health care is an example.

Latinos are not entitled as a culture. They do not expect anything from their governments. So they are much better prepared for the consequences of human overshoot. Americans are deeply steeped in entitlement whether they are political right or left. They still naively believe that government will fix things that can no longer be fixed..... like the BIG SQUEEZE of human ecological overshoot.

Americans are woefully unprepared for the future, whether they are political right or political left. Latinos are better prepared because they only have to fall from already very low hanging branches. Many Americans will psychologically break their backs and necks because they will fall from much higher up the entitlement tree!

This has nothing to do with race by the way. Your comments on race are typical of eastern europeans. We have guests from Russia, Poland, Ukraine this year. It is amazing how almost universal opinion they have of seeing blacks and latinos as inferior. Since I am a host here at our resort I take a neutral position mostly. But your comments did not surprise me as they are pretty typical of folks from your region. Most eastern european countries are racially xenophobic. You have very little history of racial diversity. It is understandable your racism. It is refreshingly unfiltered. I will say that.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby radon1 » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 07:52:54

EnergyUnlimited wrote: low IQ retards


Low IQ non-retards, high IQ retards, and the rest should unite and act immediately. Invasion of a certain central European country has been a good starting point, historically.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 08:46:18

Ibon wrote:Latinos are not entitled as a culture. They do not expect anything from their governments.


Patently false. Tell that to a receptionist of an ER in Southern California dealing with uninsured latinos.

They come to the US, drop an anchor baby, and then expect some sort of government support.

Yes, they're used to dealing with hardship from where they come from, but they don't deal with it if they don't HAVE to, and they don't expect to have to when they get here, due to regions in the US where they get handouts (driver's licenses, healthcare, etc...) no questions asked.

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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Cog » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 11:11:37

Latinos from central and south America are indoctrinated into socialism from day one of their birth. The invasion of them to North America insures that they are ready to receive the progressive message that the Democrat party is peddling. "Free health care for illegals, guaranteed basic income". I've said this before, but it bears repeating. If Latinos, with the exception of first generation Cubans, voted consistently for Republicans, Democrats would advocate machine gunning every single illegal who crossed our southern border.

Ibon knows all of this, but wants to fundamentally destroy American exceptionalism and throws the racism charge out as if being brown is relevant to anything. Its not skin color but who they vote for that is important here.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 11:45:20

Ibon wrote: I would even say that most Latinos are more sophisticated than American citizens in that they have become jaded by the false promises of demagogues, whether right or left. Americans are still innocent by comparison to these movements. Latinos see their governments as mainly corrupt and incompetent. The main ideology of most latinos is a desire for economic stability.

With average IQ of 84 in Colombia, Venezuela or Panama their sophistication is limited to "full belly policy".
As long as belly is full, government is good. All what they have learned is that government delivering corn and potatoes today is more trustwordy than one promissing lobsters, caviour and sushi tommorow.
It can work to a degree.
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Best example at the moment would be Colombia. I traveled there extensively on business in the 90's. Still deep in crisis with leftist FARC, private militias, narco organizations and a government torn apart. Today the country is opening up, relieved to leave this violent chapter behind them, if you go there you will see a collective culture with a feeling of liberation from all these extremes. Well educated society, some of the best universities in Latin America. Still have many problems and security issues in some local areas within the country but all in all much more stable. Tourism is booming. Citizens are not in a funk. They are experiencing a renaissance.

It is very likely that you are judging this nation base on impression gained by dealing with their elites.
Son of my good friend have recently married high end Colombian beauty.
Within 2 years she have learned our language perfectly, apears intelligent and feminine and our local girls are looking like complete retards comparing to this particular one.
However she is from Colombian elites and certainly not an average Colombian.

Latinos are not entitled as a culture. They do not expect anything from their governments. So they are much better prepared for the consequences of human overshoot. Americans are deeply steeped in entitlement whether they are political right or left. They still naively believe that government will fix things that can no longer be fixed..... like the BIG SQUEEZE of human ecological overshoot.

Here we agree. America is a done deal, it is transforming into 3rd World. No argument here.
Critical demographic threshold have been crossed and Latinos will take it over as time pass.
This has nothing to do with race by the way. Your comments on race are typical of eastern europeans. We have guests from Russia, Poland, Ukraine this year. It is amazing how almost universal opinion they have of seeing blacks and latinos as inferior. Since I am a host here at our resort I take a neutral position mostly. But your comments did not surprise me as they are pretty typical of folks from your region. Most eastern european countries are racially xenophobic. You have very little history of racial diversity. It is understandable your racism. It is refreshingly unfiltered. I will say that.

Racism issues are usually difficult to discuss because they are tending to go contentious easily, but here is my go on it:
As you surely know my wife is Chinese. We were living in the UK for more than 10 years and now for last 15 years we are living in Poland.
Yet she would say that Brits are racist (and she felt it) but Poles are not.
We are rather not tolerant to retards but not racists as such.
We simply don't want retards in our country and we do not tolerate ethnic groups who are confusing a goat with their girlfriend, pushing women under trains for fun or simply run derelict lifestyle on streets of our cities without any chance to assimilate.
So such ethnicities as a *groups* are vieved with utmost suspicion but selected members of high IQ end and with suitable skillset can lead here very fulfilling, unhindered life. Yet to do so they must embrace our values and reject their own.
We have also significant Vietnamese minority (~40000 peoples, approximately 0.1% of total).
But guess what?
I have never seen any of them lying drugged up on the street and shitting under himself, they don't beg, don't steal, don't rape, they all have successful businesses or jobs and they are all well liked and respected.
We don't even mind their tax evasion.
But again, Far Eastern Asians are white supremacists or so American progressives are saying.

BTW, my Chinese wife is even whiter than I am, so she is "supreme white" indeed. :)
When I was looking for a woman I have consciously rejected our *white* women as unreliable troublemakers carrying a high risk of family ruin when married. So I have tried few beauties of other races/nations and after basic screening to reject obviously retarded and useless ones "first come, first served" policy was applied. Happened to be Chinese but there was also Iranian, Japanese and Sri Lankan candidates.
Chinese have beaten others because she didn't bother to secure parents permit, so she was first. Best decision of my life.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby tire » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 12:17:51

Ibon wrote:
tire wrote:
So let's define and agree on this first before we continue.
Do you agree that "the best interest" you claim to know so well is a very personal construct. One man's "best interest" is not another man's best interest.

This is really the basic of the discussion. If we don't agree on this, and you keep on claiming that only YOU know the "best interest" then I'm afraid, there won't be any discussion possible.


I give my opinions. Sometimes it might sound preachy, that is possible. When you mentioned this urgency to immediately deport immigrants as part of a guest worker program, that is what I interpreted as your tendency toward being a xenophobe. It seems we are heavily laden with this xenophobia on this site so I may be over reacting some in your case. I brought up the over riding cultural attributes of latinos that are here as immigrants to point out how they are actually predisposed to being more republican than democrat in their beliefs and that the only reason latinos today are predominantly democrat is because the republicans seem to only want a white tent. People of color not desired. They ignore demographics to their peril even with all the gerrymandering and all the rest they cannot survive as a majority party relying on aging angry baby boomers. It is just that simple.

50 years of informal immigration with both parties complicit has created the situation we have today where the lives of immigrants and the work they do on farms, factories and as domestic workers is not something you can just unwind by inventing an emergency out of it. It will take time to deal with this with grace and humanity as well as not disrupting the economy as in the case of many farmers.

Is that nuanced enough?


That's great news. You calmed down enough to not having to use words like "crazy", "racist", "asshole" etc in every other sentence. But you're going to fast with democrats/republicans/christians and all that. That's one or two whole layers above the complexity we're sitting at right now. If you don't mind let's spend some more time with the fundamentals.

I assume now, you agree with me that "the best interest" is an individual construct. My best interest is not your best interest and vs versa. The goal we want to achieve is to find the "best interest" of the nation. This is not going to be easy.

We first have to talk about how a man's "best interest" is valued. For example is your "best interest" of higher value than mine, just because you think so? Or does everybody's "best interest" value the same? Like in one man - one vote?
Or is a rich man's "best interest" more important than a poor man's best interest.

I'm telling you what I think. I think everyone's "best interest" is of equal value. But I think the "best interest" of a citizen of a nation is of HIGHER value than "the best interest" of a foreigner.

What do you think?
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby tire » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 12:29:02

radon1 wrote:
tire wrote:
The keyword in the sentence is "were". It's the past tense. Meaning when the mexicans IN THE PAST, 50 YEARS AGO, were not available. At a time when they were not yet an integral part of the economy.

So what do you think would have happened?


They WERE available 50 years ago, but they were not in demand. Internal resources were sufficient for ensuring the economic growth. Economic development is dynamic.

Had they not been available, we would be living on another planet with a different historical context.



It's amazing how a simple thought experiment, a fictional scenario, is too difficult to understand by some.
Let's try again, on a much smaller scale.

Let's assume you own a small business (farm, grocery store, gas station, etc.).
Let's also assume you're looking for an unskilled worker who will do good work at minimum pay.
Let's also assume there are no low skilled, uneducated immigrants available (for whatever reason).

What would you do in "the best interest" of your business?

I understand there's 3 whole assumptions in this scenario and it might be stretching your mental capacity to contemplate it all. But anyways, let's try. We deliberately left out the past and complicated words like "WERE", so we really boiled the problem down to an easy package. I'm sure we can work our way through this.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby radon1 » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 16:46:22

tire wrote:
Let's assume you own a small business (farm, grocery store, gas station, etc.).
Let's also assume you're looking for an unskilled worker who will do good work at minimum pay.
Let's also assume there are no low skilled, uneducated immigrants available (for whatever reason).

What would you do in "the best interest" of your business?


What "business"? Why do you think that any "business" would even ever exist under your assumptions? "Businesses" originate within the scope of a specific historical context, of which immigrants (of various waves) are a part. Therefore your imaginary exercise is invalid.

Let's assume that you want to breathe on the Moon, but no oxygen transported from Earth is available. What would you do in the best interest of your breathing?
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