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Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 05 Aug 2019, 18:20:42

Ibon wrote:Coffee


I was primarily talking about US agriculture (in how it relates to illegals). Not much coffee grown in the US.

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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 05 Aug 2019, 18:36:07

asg70 wrote:
Ibon wrote:Coffee


I was primarily talking about US agriculture (in how it relates to illegals). Not much coffee grown in the US.



ASG, you obviously did not read the link I again mentioned in my last post. Here it is:

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2019/05 ... 557177342/

The issue mainly impacts fruit and vegetable growers and dairy farmers -- operations that require human labor to pick ripe produce and milk cows. Commodity crop growers require far fewer hands, as they can use machines to plant, tend and harvest their crops.

National farming organizations like the American Farm Bureau Federation warn that unless something is done to address the impending labor shortage, produce and dairy farms across the country will struggle to stay in business. As these farms cease operating, the United States instead will import produce, mostly from Mexico and other Latin American countries.


ASG, I sense that you are very suburban and have not had very much manual labor or practice with manual skills.

You need to address this. It's time
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 01:27:23

Ibon wrote:Commodity grains are one thing. Vegetables and picking fruit is something else.

I saw a documentary within the last 6 months on automation, and one of the things it had was a weird robot that could pick peppers nearly as well as a human -- already.

I just googled "vegetable picking robots" and got a lot of interesting looking hits, for something that is supposedly a non-starter.

Like this one (from a year ago), where the robot discussed is a variant of the one I saw in the documentary as far as the picking end, but the one I saw rolls around in the fields outside, and picks food off the plants, apparently without damaging it.

https://techcrunch.com/2018/08/08/your- ... you-think/

Acting like automation won't change things much because, to your knowledge, it hasn't so far in area "X" is a huge mistake, IMO. Such change is anything but linear, and apparently, very unpredictable.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 04:31:19

Ibon wrote:We currently have an asshole president whose racism is politicizing this whole topic and using immigrants as scapegoats to prop up support with his racist base.

Do you really believe that massive immigration from impoverished nations is *not* a major problem in America these days?

On the other hand why not to surrender and disband US altogether?
Lets transfer all industry to Chinese and elsewhere, surrender cities to Mexicans, give away all money to Jews, power to feminists and ass to gays.
These are not to be seen as malicious remarks. Base on my obsevations it is exactly what is going on in the US.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Cog » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 05:04:40

It is exactly what is going on in the USA, energy unlimited and to raise objections to it makes you some sort of monster to the left. Or so they say. The reality is the left wants to destroy what we know as Western civilization, by any means necessary.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 07:32:24

Ibon wrote:unless something is done to address the impending labor shortage


And...that "something" to address it will be...automation.

I get it. You don't think it can be automated. Time will tell.

There are threads here about the rise of robots. It's not like this hasn't been discussed. But you're taking it as a given that we've reached the point of diminishing returns already, and I don't think that's a fair assumption.

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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby GHung » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 08:11:30

Cog wrote:It is exactly what is going on in the USA, energy unlimited and to raise objections to it makes you some sort of monster to the left. Or so they say. The reality is the left wants to destroy what we know as Western civilization, by any means necessary.


Maybe some folks understand that societies inevitably evolve and change. Such has it always been, and trying to hold onto some perceived idyllic narrative is really just scared little people attempting to maintain their own comfortable status quo. Easier to frame things in terms of right and left, right and wrong, eh, Coggo? The future will likely be more inclusive and doesn't care if you like it. God forbid people embrace change and try to move it in a direction they see as preferable. People like you who demonize that sort of thing end up stuck in the past with their own demons and hate, festering all-the-while.
Me? I'm just the fly on the wall, so to speak. At least I understand that they have as much right to their narratives as you do to yours.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 09:47:31

Small town is what happens in the long run. And that's because there's no mouse utopia experiment.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 10:00:06

GHung wrote:The future will likely be more inclusive and doesn't care if you like it. God forbid people embrace change and try to move it in a direction they see as preferable.

How do you know it?
IMO future at least in US will be more Hutu/Tutsi alike.
Increasing diversity will bring IQ down (California already enjoys average IQ at 95, lowest in US) and in low IQ communities violence is preferable method of resolving disputes.
One mass shooting a day is already not good enough.
We need more. Progress cannot be stopped.
Mind you, Dutch paedophiles have established Child Liberation Front and they attempt to join mainstream LGBTQ traffic. I bet, they will succeed, if not now, then within few years. From then onwards they will be new protected species.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 10:02:25

ralfy wrote:Small town is what happens in the long run. And that's because there's no mouse utopia experiment.

What exactly are you trying to say?
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 10:08:15

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
ralfy wrote:Small town is what happens in the long run. And that's because there's no mouse utopia experiment.

What exactly are you trying to say?

I think he is trying to say overpopulation will be eventually corrected one way or another :-D
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 11:06:27

GHung wrote:The future will likely be more inclusive...


The future will likely be more tribal thanks to lifeboat ethics.

As Al Bartlett says, as population goes up, the value of an individual life goes down.

As far as immigration goes, immigration is a form of passive colonization. The more demographic shifts the more you begin being swept along by that shift. What was true of the native american way of life giving way to the tsunami of westward expansion would be true of any group swamped by others who impose their way of life by virtue of their sheer numbers.

The demographics of the world is skewed largely in favor of 3rd world cultures and 3rd world attitudes. Liberals falsely believe that it's possible to drag them upward when the reality is it will drag the first world downward. 100 years ago there was enough resources to drag them up but not anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Cog » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 11:15:48

13% of the American tribe commit 50% of all violent felonies. Why would I want them as part of my smaller tribe?

Oh I forgot, facts are racist and even to bring facts up is white privilege.

Trump is going to curb stomp these identity politicians into the dust of history and you leftists will never understand why.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 11:36:45

Cog wrote:13% of the American tribe commit 50% of all violent felonies. Why would I want them as part of my smaller tribe?

Oh I forgot, facts are racist and even to bring facts up is white privilege.

Trump is going to curb stomp these identity politicians into the dust of history and you leftists will never understand why.

Cog, you think hard limits we are reaching as a SPECIES care if you are left or right etc. Or the elite? We are going to find out the hard way, that we weren't very different afterall
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby tire » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 14:04:27

Ibon wrote:From WWII forwards this arrangement shifted since the economy provided so many good jobs there were no longer any resident white legal immigrants who chose to do this labor. They all found better opportunities working in factories and moving into towns that supported rust belt industries. Of course the need for this farm labor did not disappear, it was replaced slowly through the decades mainly with Mexican immigrant farm workers, undocumented.

To answer you question, yes I do believe that the millions of immigrants right now today are an indispensable part of American agriculture.


I hear this argument a lot. I think there's even a movie out there, something along the line of "a day in California without mexicans" (or similar).

You are right, currently millions of low level immigrants are needed for a functioning economy, so removing them all at once is certainly not possible or it would be so disruptive that nobody wants the outcome.

But was that destiny? I don't think so.
You claim people left the farms for better jobs, leaving the farmers with no choice but to hire mexicans. But what would have happened if those same mexicans were simply not available? Do you think americans would have simply rolled over and died of starvation?

Again, I don't think so. The situation would have resolved itself the old fashioned free market way. Pay for farm work would have gone up, making farming and farm work more attractive. Of course this would also have kept food prices higher, but you wouldn't even notice (you wouldn't know anything else).
If anything, again, this would have been beneficial to the nation. More expensive food, makes better pay for farmers, better pay for farm hands, making them better stewards of the land, more caring customers who save instead of throw away, more gardens to supplement individual needs. All in all I think the US would have been much better off.

This train left the station. The flood gates were opened, changing farms (and other industries) to what they are now. Can course be changed?
To a certain degree yes, a guest worker program as you mention can be a tool to achieve this.
However a guest worker program will only lead to positive results if it's combined with draconian enforcement on illegal workers. Illegals must be deported rapidly and business owners hiring them must be punished such that it hurts.

If done right in the right proportions, this can be a tool to reverse US worker flight from small towns to cities.

Claiming that the US needs cheap mexicans is too simple. Cheap is always a race to the bottom. I think it would be much more beneficial to the nation if unskilled, uneducated labor is kept at a shortage to elevate its price.

If anything I prefer to live in a society where everybody has a share of the pie, not only the top 1%.

We own a lodge and coffee farm in Panama. I have over 6 staff who earn between $ 15 and $ 20 a day. Without their help we could not financially function growing coffee. These workers are not exploited. They are well paid and are quite happy.

Maybe they are happy, but as soon as they find something better, they are gone. Would you increase their pay? Or would you rather hire cheap immigrants from, let's say, Colombia when push comes to shove?

I make no apologies to asshole racists.


What is an "asshole racist" and what is a "regular racist" in your opinion?
I'm disappointed that the "racist" card is pulled way too fast and too frequently by pro immigrants. Why? Listen what people have to say, listen why they are saying it. They have a reason, they have fears, they have concerns. They might have different values, different point of views, different goals and different experiences than you do. That doesn't make theirs any less "correct". It is this insisting on "being right" by many of the parties, that causes irreconcilable differences.

I take it that you enjoy living in Panama, embedded in a latino culture. I congratulate you.
But please consider that not everybody shares your values. I met people who enjoy living in New York City. Why?
Because they enjoy to hear 100 different languages in the morning before they even had breakfast. Am I to judge? No!
Nothing wrong with it. Or look our own dohboi, who apparently enjoys being surrounded by muslims. Again, nothing wrong with that, and I don't lecture him wrong.

But what if a person enjoys being embedded in his native culture? What then? What if I enjoy being able to talk to my waitress a few words beyond the minimal vocabulary she acquired when immigrating and taking the job?
What if I enjoy wishing a Merry Christmas to the grocery clerk but since it's a fresh import from arabia there's no point in doing so?

Ridiculous blabbering you say ? Maybe for you it is, but not for me. So everybody has different values and different concerns, which brings me back to what you said: it's in the best interest of....

yes, in who's best interest is it all?
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 16:36:31

tire wrote:
But what if a person enjoys being embedded in his native culture? What then? What if I enjoy being able to talk to my waitress a few words beyond the minimal vocabulary she acquired when immigrating and taking the job?
What if I enjoy wishing a Merry Christmas to the grocery clerk but since it's a fresh import from arabia there's no point in doing so?

Ridiculous blabbering you say ? Maybe for you it is, but not for me. So everybody has different values and different concerns, which brings me back to what you said: it's in the best interest of....
?


Doch, Ich habe Dich nicht falsche eingeschaetzt!
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 16:43:12

tire wrote: But what would have happened if those same mexicans were simply not available?

The economy would enter permanent stagnation/recession/depression. The growth is based on incorporation of lower paid workers. No lower paid workers - no growth.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 16:49:33

tire wrote:
Again, I don't think so. The situation would have resolved itself the old fashioned free market way. Pay for farm work would have gone up, making farming and farm work more attractive. Of course this would also have kept food prices higher, but you wouldn't even notice (you wouldn't know anything else).
If anything, again, this would have been beneficial to the nation. More expensive food, makes better pay for farmers, better pay for farm hands, making them better stewards of the land, more caring customers who save instead of throw away, more gardens to supplement individual needs. All in all I think the US would have been much better off.

This train left the station. The flood gates were opened, changing farms (and other industries) to what they are now. Can course be changed?
To a certain degree yes, a guest worker program as you mention can be a tool to achieve this.
However a guest worker program will only lead to positive results if it's combined with draconian enforcement on illegal workers. Illegals must be deported rapidly and business owners hiring them must be punished such that it hurts.


Whats the panic about rapidly deporting etc? Where do you see this emergency? Let's review something shall we? 95% of undocumented latino immigrants are christian. They are overwhelmingly conservative. They value family. They are by and large against abortion. They are overwhelmingly adherents to fixed gender roles of men being men and women being women. They have had overwhelmingly negative experiences with socialism. They are church going. In my estimation the only real difference value wise to what republicans represent seems to be the color of their skin.

What the fuck is wrong with you guys? These are culturally folks where way more than 50%, I would even say 75% would vote Republican if the party wasn't currently alienating them by being dominated by racist assholes.

The demographics are not looking very good for you homophobic, culturally diverse phobic, xenophobic obsolete baby boomers.

Millennials don't share these values.

What Ghung said to Cog up thread is right on and it applies to you, EU and many other older baby boomers who frankly are not being replaced in the emerging generation with folks who share your warped white nationalism and xenophobia.

EU for example can only explain this difference with millennials in that they are somehow degraded humans! It is actually frankly humorous the way some of you twist things to fit your narrative.

Crazy crazy crazy.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 17:02:04

asg70 wrote:
Ibon wrote:unless something is done to address the impending labor shortage


And...that "something" to address it will be...automation.

I get it. You don't think it can be automated. Time will tell.

There are threads here about the rise of robots. It's not like this hasn't been discussed. But you're taking it as a given that we've reached the point of diminishing returns already, and I don't think that's a fair assumption.


Perhaps automation will penetrate into some of these AG applications. At least regarding my one area of organic expertise in growing coffee there are so many variables that would have to be programmed into robotics that it seems daunting. But then again, I am a luddite aging and increasing obsolete baby boomer myself so I may not be judging this accurately.

I could go into some in depth detail on what the challenges would be to automate coffee cultivation... but that would be side tracking the threads current major theme of dealing with this bunch of whining white nationalists we have on this site who can't seem to deal with the shifting demographics.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 19:41:53

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
ralfy wrote:Small town is what happens in the long run. And that's because there's no mouse utopia experiment.

What exactly are you trying to say?


The behavioral sink or mouse utopia experiment is based on the premise that there is unlimited energy and material resources, and that a population will collapse due to overcrowding.

Neither is seen in current circumstances.
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