[asg70]

Since Planty lives in the state that, by a large margin, has the highest per capita oil consumption of all US States, and loves to brag about his/her worldwide jaunts by air, Planty is obsessed with belittling any options that may or may not offer a more sustainable path. If Plant really gave a damn about these things Plant would stop flying and move somewhere where per capita oil consumption is far lower. Then again, I've never seen Planty take personal responsibility for anything. Clearly doesn't have the character for that.

Well said. If only the few active posters were genuinely interested in a smart dispassionate discussion rather than just trying to get reactions out of people, pro or con, for the sake of a quick dopamine hit of attention.

[Plantagenet]

Since Planty lives in the state that, by a large margin, has the highest per capita oil consumption of all US States, and loves to brag about his/her worldwide jaunts by air, Planty is obsessed with belittling any options that may or may not offer a more sustainable path.

Since gungie lives off the grid in a state that, by most measures, has some of the lowest per capita incomes, educational attainment and IQs of all states, and loves to brag about his/her jaunts to the outhouse and the local grocery store, gungie is obsessed with belittling any discussion that is more sophisticated then a series of grunts signifying "EV GOOD.....EVERYTHING ELSE BAD."

Its simply a fact that the disposable e-scoooters popping up in city after city around the world are not good for the environment. I know understanding that requires a bit of independent thinking, and perhaps even an understanding of the startling revelation that not everything associated with EVs is automatically positive, but if you are actually interested in discussing this subject I suggest you go back and read the link in my post for a more in-depth review of the subject and I'd be happy to discuss the facts with you.

If only the few active posters were genuinely interested in a smart dispassionate discussion rather than just trying to get reactions out of people, pro or con, for the sake of a quick dopamine hit of attention.

That would be nice, wouldn't it?

Cheers!

[GHung]

......

Since gungie lives off the grid in a state that, by most measures, has some of the lowest per capita incomes, educational attainment and IQs of all states, and loves to brag about his/her jaunts to the outhouse and the local grocery store, gungie is obsessed with belittling any discussion that is more sophisticated then a series of grunts signifying "EV GOOD.....EVERYTHING ELSE BAD."

Its simply a fact that the disposable e-scoooters popping up in city after city around the world are not good for the environment. I know understanding that requires a bit of independent thinking, and perhaps even an understanding of the startling revelation that not everything associated with EVs is automatically positive, but if you are actually interested in discussing this subject I suggest you go back and read the link in my post for a more in-depth review of the subject and I'd be happy to discuss the facts with you.
........

More nonsense, best ignored except to note Planty not taking responsibility for its own impacts; pointing fingers at anything/everyone else.. Must be a charter member of the Al Gore fan club.

Living a low impact lifestyle goes beyond "independent thinking". It involves not being a hypocrite.

[Plantagenet]

Planty not taking responsibility for its own impacts

and gungie not taking responsibility for its own impacts

Living a low impact lifestyle goes beyond "independent thinking"..

Thats sounds like something that might be interesting to discuss.

I suggest you describe the nature of your low impact lifestyle and also explain why you think a low impact lifestyle is important. If you've purchased a $150,000 Tesla or other EV as part of your low impact lifestyle that would be interesting to discuss. If you haven't made a shiny new EV part of your low impact lifestyle then perhaps that discussion doesn't belong in the EV thread at all. I suggest you might start a new thread on the topic of your experiences with your low impact lifestyle and what vehicles you use and how you fuel them and how you manage to make money doing it and how good it is for the planet, etc.. I don't think the whole subject of low impact lifestyles is being discussed in any of the active threads, and I'm sure the other posters here would find your ideas and experiences to be useful and novel.

I'm looking forward to discussing this interesting topic with you.

Cheers!

[AdamB]

Its simply a fact that the disposable e-scoooters popping up in city after city around the world are not good for the environment.

As is jet setting the globe because it is just so COOL!

When you care about the environment, you are allowed to complain about others that don't.

Have you ever used an e-scooter? In any of your globe trotting? Was it good or bad? Or, like EVs, did you avoid them in order to speak loftily on a topic or an item from a position of ignorance?

[asg70]

I'm looking forward to discussing this interesting topic with you.

I seriously doubt you are (as sincerity is anathema to you) but I encourage Ghung to take you up on this challenge.

[Plantagenet]

Have you ever used an e-scooter?

Of course. I've used them in several cities. They are totally fun to ride. Over the last couple of years the rental EV scooter biz has put thousands and thousands of e-scooters on city streets all over the world.

I was shocked, however, to read a critique of e-scooters a couple of days ago that revealed that they are essentially disposable, i.e. the lifespan of typical rental e-scooter EV is only a few weeks to a few months. They are "throwaway" EVs.


There's a lady on an e-scooter under there somewhere......

Thats incredible wasteful, IMHO.

The link to that report is in my post on the previous page, if you're interested in the facts.

Cheers!

[asg70]

Of course. I've used them in several cities.

How much time do you actually spend in Alaska??? Apparently you're the type of guy who flies from city to city just to try an e-scooter and then dump it in the trash at the airport terminal.

[GHung]

Of course. I've used them in several cities. They are totally fun to ride. Over the last couple of years the rental EV scooter biz has put thousands and thousands of e-scooters on city streets all over the world. ...

I've never ridden one. I have salvaged two for the motors, controllers and four wheels. Someone else had already repurposed the batteries. I've also repurposed parts from a couple of electric wheel chairs ("Rascal" type). There are many folks like me that do the same because there is value in most of those scooters you claim are just "thrown away". I have a variable speed vintage wood lathe that I powered with a wheel chair motor and controller. It even turns in reverse when I want. Great for sanding stuff. It runs directly off of the main solar system. Go to Youtube, Pinterest and similar sites you'll see people reusing all of this stuff, especially batteries, motors, and controllers like the ones in electric scooters. Salvaging and rebuilding electric car batteries is also a big deal, especially for folks building homemade powerwalls. There are industries built around this sort of thing.

I was shocked, however, to read a critique of e-scooters a couple of days ago that revealed that they are essentially disposable, i.e. the lifespan of typical rental e-scooter EV is only a few weeks to a few months. They are "throwaway" EVs.

.....

The link to that report is in my post on the previous page, if you're interested in the facts.

I posit that your facts are incomplete. Consider that the computer I'm typing on is almost entirely built of stuff someone else was "throwing away" or offered up for sale cheap before they did. Give me about a dozen of those "thrown away" scooters, I'll build you a great solar battery bank. It's hard to believe that you come from the US capital of scrounging things.

I'm betting most of those "thrown away" scooters are stuffed into empty shipping containers, sent back to Asia, and rebuilt for third-world use.

Cheers!

[Plantagenet]

I have a variable speed vintage wood lathe that I powered with a wheel chair motor and controller. It even turns in reverse when I want. Great for sanding stuff. It runs directly off of the main solar system. Go to Youtube, Pinterest and similar sites you'll see people reusing all of this stuff, especially batteries, motors, and controllers like the ones in electric scooters. Salvaging and rebuilding electric car batteries is also a big deal, especially for folks building homemade powerwalls. There are industries built around this sort of thing.

Thats very interesting. I wasn't aware of that. I knew you had a good story to tell.

Consider that the computer I'm typing on is almost entirely built of stuff someone else was "throwing away" or offered up for sale cheap before they did......Cheers!

Me too. Most of my computer system and wifi network is salvaged from University surplus. Its great that you are recycling and repurposing things, but you are far from the only person doing that sort of thing. I do a lot of that here in Alaska and lots of other people do as well. A common joke in Alaska is that you can tell who is rich by looking at all the junk in their yards---the rich have yards filled with old snow machines and road graders and four four wheelers (ATVs) and wrecked cars, all there to be salvaged and repurposed or fixed up and used to clear land or move snow or hunt moose or whatever is needed.

Please share more about your low impact lifestyle. For instance, how do you earn money? Do you drive an EV? Are you totally self-sufficient in terms of electric power, or are you tied into the grid and using solar to sell electricity back into the grid?

Cheers!

[Outcast_Searcher]

I was shocked, however, to read a critique of e-scooters a couple of days ago that revealed that they are essentially disposable, i.e. the lifespan of typical rental e-scooter EV is only a few weeks to a few months. They are "throwaway" EVs.

This reminds me of the economics of e-bikes. Given the utility of the vehicle, the prices are generally just insane.

If these things (e-anything) are going to catch on for real and become anything close to main-stream, they MUST be economically viable and in fact somewhat sensible, or the masses aren't going to throw away their money just to "look cool" once they're no longer novelties.

That's a big part of the discussion re Tesla. How much is fast 0-60 times really worth in terms of dollars, durability, quality, convenience, etc? I strongly suspect that for the masses, it is worth almost nothing, compared to the preening wealthy set buying $100Kish Tesla's in CA to be "hip" or politically correct. (OTOH, I have high hopes that the coming competition from established car companies in the middle class segment will be much better re things like durability and service).

I still think HEV's are the obvious financial choice for cars, at the current level of technology and infrastructure re EV's. And that's a good thing in terms of eliminating perhaps 50% of gasoline consumption with virtually no effort or inconvenience and very little risk from the consumer. (The main risk is that if gasoline gets meaningfully cheaper over time, they might not recoup the entire cost differential over the life of the car. A moderate CO2 tax on motor fuels would fix that of course, but the Paris kick the can Accords is apparently about all we can do on climate change policy.)

[asg70]

There are more things to discuss on the EV front besides Plant's FUD-du-jour.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volk ... SKCN1U30I8

VW has a big challenge ahead in securing battery supply but its moves of late at least reinforce the idea that they are dead serious in scaling out.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I believe YOUR analysis is too shallow, OS. For one thing, the plug-in hybrid and the ICE-only version of the SAME CHASSIS are in fact different classes of vehicles, performance-wise. The ICE in a PHEV is smaller than the version in the ICE-only vehicle, with lower output. The extra 700 lbs of powertrain pieces and battery does indeed hamper acceleration and handling and impose greater stresses on suspension, brakes, and tires.

If you are enamored of PHEV tech, you tend to overlook the realities imposed by Physics. Note I AM enamored of PHEVs and EVs in general. But I'm also a realist. PHEVs and HEVs are slow and ponderous, unless they have a "performance mode" where BOTH ICE and electric motor are used for acceleration. In that case forget about 25% fuel savings.

Have you bothered to READ about modern HEV's, or are you just endlessly going to repeat the same tired, outmoded mantra?

PHEV's do indeed have a heavy battery which compromises performance. Somehow, though, for people wanting a PHEV and to burn nearly zero gasoline in the city, that comes before blazing 0-60 times. It's NOT that complicated.

But the HEV complaints you have are now mostly false, as they are referring to previous generations. And Toyota is now willing to license its superior HEV tech to all automakers (for no fee, apparently), so all can reap the benefits.

The anemic 25% fuel economy increase you cite is old news and not at all realistic. You keep refusing to catch up.

Real world 47 mpg combined for cars like the modern Camry and Accord is WAY more of an increase than the real world 25 mpg or so for such ICE cars combined. (You get more like 20 mpg in cities, real world, due to traffic lights, waiting in lines for ATM's, fast food, etc. I've experienced that the past 2.5 years, despite a relaxed driving style in the city.)

Now, the idea that the modern hybrids are slow, clumsy, etc. is again, just false, overall. The traction battery provides extra HP. The HEV traction batteries are relatively small and don't make the vehicle "ponderous" at all. The total HP of these is often more than the ICE version of the 4 cylinder models. The batteries no longer take up half the trunk. Read the reviews. Try driving or riding in such cars. It's not 10 or 20 years ago.

I believe much of your "analysis" is just repetition of incorrect beliefs. Sorry if you consider using more modern data "shallow", but facts matter and data impacts facts re such matters.

Some of your performance complaints matter for PHEV's, but not more to the fuel savings for people who want such cars. But for modern HEV's, at least for the superior latest generation design from Toyota, your complaints are much more akin to denialist FUD than valid issues.

https://www.cars.com/research/toyota-camry_hybrid-2018/

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2019-ho ... id-buy-it/

The Honda hits 60 mph in a MotorTrend-tested 6.7 seconds, quicker than any hybridized Fusion. That's also quicker than a base-engine Accord or Clarity plug-in, which is the other car I'd strongly consider. I remember being impressed by the Clarity's ride, and its EV range is exceptional.

Red font mine, for emphasis. Only "ponderous" compared to a six cylinder, 300ish HP engine. Which is totally unnecessary to do normal needed things like passing, merging, etc.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-toyo ... SKCN1RE2KC

Toyota said it would grant licenses on nearly 24,000 patents on technologies used in its Prius, the world’s first mass-produced “green” car, and offer to supply competitors with components including motors, power converters and batteries used in its lower-emissions vehicles.

[Plantagenet]

A fire started in the garage and damaged a house in a posh LA suburb. A BMW i3 EV in the garage is suspected to have been the source of the fire. The fire started at ca. 12:20 am suggesting something somehow somewhere spontaneously ignited.

bmw-i3-involved-fire

“The butler did it”, right? At least in books. If we were talking about fires, the sentence would probably be “the EV did it”. This is what we can see in all recent reports in which an electric car happens to be involved. Take this case as an example, reported by the Los Angeles Daily News: a 2-story house in Toluca Lake caught fire last Saturday (June 29). There is no mention whatsoever on what has caused the problem, but the title states that a “BMW electric car” burned. It was an i3, for the record. And, as you may guess, it is probably the main suspect.


Should this picture be labelled BMW i3 EV burned in house fire or house burned in BMW i3 EV fire?

[Outcast_Searcher]

Should this picture be labelled BMW i3 EV burned in house fire or house burned in BMW i3 EV fire?

Shouldn't we wait to label the picture until we know if the EV started the fire?

I'm not saying that EV fires aren't a problem, and EV battery fires have caused me to want to wait on large battery LI-ION solutions until we see how well the industry sorts that risk out.

However, that doesn't mean that every time there is a fire when an EV is nearby that the EV is the cause -- that's what investigations are for.

[Plantagenet]

that doesn't mean that every time there is a fire when an EV is nearby that the EV is the cause -- that's what investigations are for.

The fire wasn't just "nearby."

The fire totally destroyed the BMW i3 EV in the garage. Look at the picture. Read the article.

Of course we should wait for the conclusion of the official investigation. But that doesn't mean we ignore the visual evidence in the still photos and video of the fire scene showing the destroyed BMW i3 EV or put our hands over our ears and refuse to hear the firemen on the scene in the video saying the EV caused the fire or close our eyes and refuse to read the analysis made by the reporter at the "INSIDE EVS" new site that I linked to in my post---an analysis that raised concern about EV fires.

Its time to face facts: EVs have a problem with spontaneously catching on fire.

Cheers!

[GHung]

We can continue to point out that millions of ICE vehicles have been recalled for "spontaneously" catching fire, including Kias, Mercedes, Hyundais.....,, but I'm fine with letting Planty continue to make an ass of itself by obsessing over electric vehicles. There's something comically absurd about this ongoing display of OCD.

[Plantagenet]

ass ...

Your potty mouth is overflowing again. Please clench teeth and then flush.

Cheers!

[GHung]

ass ...

Your potty mouth is overflowing again. Please clench teeth and then flush.

Cheers!

....and Planty sure as chit ain't my momma.

[dolanbaker]

ass ...

Your potty mouth is overflowing again. Please clench teeth and then flush.

Cheers!

I believe that he was referring to this type of ass.