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Have Even A Partial Solution?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Do you have an

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 08 Mar 2018, 10:23:59

The invisible hand of the market can deal with peak-oil in particular...based on how it's currently shaking out. This will not be able to deal with the larger issue of overshoot and limits to growth, however.
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Re: Do you have an

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 08 Mar 2018, 10:46:15

All good discussion, about topics worthy of thought. Yet somehow, the esscence of the underlying problem was missed.

There are 7.7+ billion humans on a planet that can at most support 1 billion or less sustainably. Their mere presence is killing the planet at an accelerating pace. As the damage accumulates, that sustainable total number of humans continues to decline.

Find solutions to EVERYTHING on the list above, and the planet ecology would still crash from the human overshoot.

The human die-off is the solution, and it is something that you should embrace, not something to be feared. For only by dying in massive numbers, can the world be saved from humans.

In fact, don't go making any plans to survive doom, to go on living when most around you are dying. To carve a future out of a dying Earth is to place you and yours at the center of the problem. A Doomstead is the ultimate expression of not understanding what the real problem even is.

So eat your food stash. Return your land to it's natural state. Dispose responsibly of all your possessions. Vanish from the Earth and leave no trace that you ever existed.

When all remaining humans have accepted this as their lifestyle, the human overshoot will be at an end, and the long emergency will be over.
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Re: Do you have an

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 08 Mar 2018, 11:09:53

Yes, ultimately whatever we do or not will not matter, if we cannot keep our population to a certain maximum level. We have already far exceeded that level and so a considerable die off is now assured
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Re: Do you have an

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 08 Mar 2018, 12:25:14

As discussed many times before: PO is not a "problem"...it's a "predicament". Problems have potential solutions. With predicaments you can have useful responses and disastrous responses. But the predicament will remain.
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 31 May 2019, 10:31:47

ROCKMAN wrote:As discussed many times before: PO is not a "problem"...it's a "predicament". Problems have potential solutions. With predicaments you can have useful responses and disastrous responses. But the predicament will remain.


While PO itself is a predicament its effects are problems that do have potential solutions.
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Revi » Fri 31 May 2019, 13:27:45

I hope there are places that fare better than others when the crash happens. I also hope I'm in one of them, but I'm not so sure it's Maine. It's a hard place to live in even without peak oil. We are the most reliant on heating oil in the country, and don't have much arable farmland. Other than that and the black flies, it's ducky!

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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 01 Jun 2019, 23:31:59

Sounds like you're itching to move.
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Revi » Mon 03 Jun 2019, 09:48:09

asg70 wrote:Sounds like you're itching to move.

Maybe, but it doesn't sound any better any place else.

I am going to try out some other places, but I realized that I've lived in 14 different places in my life, and at least 4 different countries, so I have some perspective as to different places. I realize that they are all flawed somehow, and all have their good and bad points.

I do think relocating can be a good strategy now, before it gets bad. If you are stuck in some industrial town in the midwest for example, the chances of it getting better are slim. Fortunately they are located near some great farmland and maybe more livable communities not too far away.
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 03 Jun 2019, 14:34:37

Revi wrote:I do think relocating can be a good strategy now, before it gets bad.


How come you didn't move last time, right before it was claimed to get bad? You didn't believe the peak oil nonsense of 15 years ago..but do now?

Revi wrote: If you are stuck in some industrial town in the midwest for example, the chances of it getting better are slim.


What might "it" be? Recycled fears similar to the Happy Mcpeakster claims of 15 years ago, or just a general recession triggered by trade wars and whatnot? And will any of that make Maine worse? You have hunting and fishing and an island to retreat to, can you even name a better potential place than that? Forming the Citizens Defense of Swans Island (CDSI) to keep the zombies and starving hoards from sailboating there?

revi wrote: Fortunately they are located near some great farmland and maybe more livable communities not too far away.


I'd bet on the eastern woodlands before the midwest flatlands.
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Revi » Tue 04 Jun 2019, 09:48:26

I don't really have a solution, but I did a film that talked about a few.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5efV-w8Ejk&t=1889s
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby jef » Tue 04 Jun 2019, 10:49:58

DO LESS!!!!
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Revi » Tue 04 Jun 2019, 10:58:20

jef wrote:DO LESS!!!!

I agree. Quit flying all over the place trying to impress everyone on the face fun!

Maybe if we could learn to chill, and enjoy the place we live in, we could use a lot less fossil fuel.
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby wildbourgman » Fri 07 Jun 2019, 11:15:19

The answer is to utilize the only thing powerful enough to be the solution. Try true free market capitalism for once.

Without government intrusion in the price of money, debt and other misadventures, market forces would have not allowed or even endorsed the housing bubble or the shale bubble. The mechanism of price would not be distorted and the dependence on growth by the Private and Public (both terms used loosely) sector would not be what it is today. Allow the next collapse to happen if you really feel a need to have a solution, no bail outs or bail ins.
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Revi » Tue 11 Jun 2019, 07:59:24

wildbourgman wrote:The answer is to utilize the only thing powerful enough to be the solution. Try true free market capitalism for once.

Without government intrusion in the price of money, debt and other misadventures, market forces would have not allowed or even endorsed the housing bubble or the shale bubble. The mechanism of price would not be distorted and the dependence on growth by the Private and Public (both terms used loosely) sector would not be what it is today. Allow the next collapse to happen if you really feel a need to have a solution, no bail outs or bail ins.


I agree, but the market would cause a lot of pain until it stabilizes. American cars should have been allowed to die for example. If people had been paying $5 for gas all this time it would have happened already.
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 11 Jun 2019, 08:04:08

You guys can read again and again from countless sources about the pain that will result if let the market do its thing or the cost and pain if we implement carbon taxes or any other regulation that will slow consumption.

This constant drone about the pain, THE PAIN that this or that will cause.

Does anybody else around here not marvel about what collective fucking cowards we have all become.

THE PAIN

THE PAIN

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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Cog » Tue 11 Jun 2019, 08:38:47

Humans will always tend to avoid pain, even short term pain, if that results in momentary pleasure. Look at the fat people using hoverounds in US supermarkets loading up on chips and soda. It is only when confronted with the consequences of short term thinking, in a very direct way, that we change our behavior. Sometimes not even then.

We are going to need to go through some real consequences of our failure to plan for a future without fossil fuels before we substantially change our current way of thinking. Getting slapped upside the head is sometimes the only way we learn.
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Revi » Tue 11 Jun 2019, 09:41:27

I agree. We need to let it all go down in order to save ourselves. Without a gigantic crash we will go on burning more and more fossil fuels and it's going to get hotter and hotter. It's interesting that peak oil becomes the solution to the predicament we have gotten ourselves into with climate change. It's going to be an interesting next decade. I hope we come out of it alive, but hard to tell...
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Cog » Tue 11 Jun 2019, 10:41:45

Now I can't prove this but I'm inclined to believe that the problems of peak oil and climate change will solve themselves with somewhat horrendous results in global population. IMO the consequences of peak oil will come first which will make climate change of less relevance as we won't be dumping CO2 into the environment because we have run out of fossil fuels. As billions die off due to lack of fossil fuels to keep them alive, humans will have less and less impact on the environment. The problem solves itself.

Anything else, related to transitioning to green energy, is just bargaining instead of acceptance.

My 2 cents for what it is worth.
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Revi » Tue 11 Jun 2019, 11:03:43

Cog wrote:Now I can't prove this but I'm inclined to believe that the problems of peak oil and climate change will solve themselves with somewhat horrendous results in global population. IMO the consequences of peak oil will come first which will make climate change of less relevance as we won't be dumping CO2 into the environment because we have run out of fossil fuels. As billions die off due to lack of fossil fuels to keep them alive, humans will have less and less impact on the environment. The problem solves itself.

Anything else, related to transitioning to green energy, is just bargaining instead of acceptance.

My 2 cents for what it is worth.


I have to agree with you. I think the transition to green energy will happen, but just to those fortunate enough to live in some of the remnant communities that don't succumb to violence and disorder as we start down the steep decline. It's going to be very difficult to feed 8 billion people in a diminished world. I hope we do less damage to the climate, but it seems like we'll try to switch to biomass and coal in a desperate attempt to maintain business as usual before it all goes down. I think we're running out of that possibility too, so it won't last long.
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Re: Have Even A Partial Solution?

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 11 Jun 2019, 11:27:37

Yes and Yes. I agree with the past couple of posts.

Consequences rule!
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