[Newfie]

I thought, plain talk. I also like Barr calling FBI “surveillance” SPYING. It is what it is, no BS.

I frequently get in trouble for that kind of thing.

[dohboi]

Newf, why are you needlessly and gratuitously introducing extremely polarizing party politics into this quite civil discussion on educating children?

I thought that was the kind of thing moderators try to keep other posters from doing, rather than doing it themselves.

But if you would like to turn this very useful, thoughtful thread into a screaming match about how much of a lying, sycophantic toady Barr is, I'll be happy to oblige!!

(And to further abet your attempt to drive the thread off topic, I will just note the definitions of 'spy': "a person employed by a government to obtain secret information or intelligence about another, usually hostile, country, especially with reference to military or naval affairs." https://www.dictionary.com/browse/spy Soooo, are you know claiming/admitting that the Trump campaign was, or was acting as, a 'hostile country'?? )

[GHung]

Newf, why are you needlessly and gratuitously introducing extremely polarizing party politics into this quite civil discussion on educating children?

I thought that was the kind of thing moderators try to keep other posters from doing, rather than doing it themselves.

But if you would like to turn this very useful, thoughtful thread into a screaming match about how much of a lying, sycophantic toady Barr is, I'll be happy to oblige!!

(And to further abet your attempt to drive the thread off topic, I will just note the definitions of 'spy': "a person employed by a government to obtain secret information or intelligence about another, usually hostile, country, especially with reference to military or naval affairs." https://www.dictionary.com/browse/spy Soooo, are you know claiming/admitting that the Trump campaign was, or was acting as, a 'hostile country'?? )

Newf needs to sail his little boat to some authoritarian/dictatorship country and see how the moderators, and government, work there. I'm sure he'll love it. While he's underway he can study up on how co-equal branches of government, checks-and-balances, and congressional oversight are supposed to work, and why these things are founding/essential principals of the USA's form of government. Seems he doesn't like these ideas very much.

[eclipse]

Easy, how I explain it to many adult deniers!

"Weather and short term climate trends like El Nino is like someone in the bath. They may splash and make waves in the bath, but that's weather. Climate change is the fact that someone left the tap on."

[phaster]

Newf, why are you needlessly and gratuitously introducing extremely polarizing party politics into this quite civil discussion on educating children?

I thought that was the kind of thing moderators try to keep other posters from doing, rather than doing it themselves.

But if you would like to turn this very useful, thoughtful thread into a screaming match about how much of a lying, sycophantic toady Barr is, I'll be happy to oblige!!

(And to further abet your attempt to drive the thread off topic, I will just note the definitions of 'spy': "a person employed by a government to obtain secret information or intelligence about another, usually hostile, country, especially with reference to military or naval affairs." https://www.dictionary.com/browse/spy Soooo, are you know claiming/admitting that the Trump campaign was, or was acting as, a 'hostile country'?? )

Newf needs to sail his little boat to some authoritarian/dictatorship country and see how the moderators, and government, work there. I'm sure he'll love it. While he's underway he can study up on how co-equal branches of government, checks-and-balances, and congressional oversight are supposed to work, and why these things are founding/essential principals of the USA's form of government. Seems he doesn't like these ideas very much.

ah extremely polarizing party politics,... the topic was bound to popup,... FWIW ya all might find this books thesis interesting

Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind

...Homo sapiens rules the world because it is the only animal that can believe in things that exist purely in its own imagination, such as gods, states, money and human rights.

https://www.ynharari.com/book/sapiens/

https://www.amazon.com/Sapiens-Humankin ... 062316117/

in other words given human nature, people fall back upon gut instinct (i.e. "storytelling") to make sense of the world around them

for example trump supporters think he is gods gift to the world to clean up the clusterfuck of a mess caused by non-god believing liberal-progressives who champion the rights of fashion-conscious queers and illegal aliens who migrate to find work because in their own countries things are pretty fucked up

recalling a movie from back in the day,... I kinda relate to a homeless character that was able to see the truth,... which is that there are aliens from outer space that live among us!

They Live (1988) - Obey, Consume, This is Your God
https://vimeo.com/20402674

BUT the difference in my case is I've learned that often times if one uses middle school math concepts and logic, it should be vary apparent that individuals in various leadership positions,... are in reality, false prophets (i.e. no talent a$$ clowns!!!)

take for example POTUS,... if one looks at his business model and past business history one would see that he is an ass kissing con man who basically has figured out how to borrow his way to a questionable fortune (like in the case of mismanaged deutsche bank)

After Donald Trump's companies declared four bankruptcies, several major banks stopped loaning him money. But Deutsche Bank didn't.

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0c ... 8798395487

truth is,... the false prophets (i.e. no talent a$$ clowns!!!) is fractal in nature!!!

I've borrowed a math term "fractal" to describe the fact that the pattern of false prophets (i.e. no talent a$$ clowns!!!) is repeated at all levels of political leadership,... for example in my home town of $an Diego there is a no talent a$$ clown running for mayor in the 2020 elections and currently this "gay-liberal" is the leader in the polls

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Gloria (the PR page)

http://www.TinyURL.com/ToddGloria (the "truth")

(if one uses middle school math concepts and logic, it should be vary apparent that this no talent career politician is just another example of an a$$ clown in a political leadership position)

[GHung]

......

BUT the difference in my case is I've learned that often times if one uses middle school math concepts and logic, it should be vary apparent that individuals in various leadership positions,... are in reality, false prophets (i.e. no talent a$$ clowns!!!) ..........

Which is why I pointed out that we have a system of checks-and-balances, oversight, and legal structures designed to thwart said false prophets, dictator wannabees, and their feeble-minded minions.

[phaster]

Which is why I pointed out that we have a system of checks-and-balances, oversight, and legal structures designed to thwart said false prophets, dictator wannabees, and their feeble-minded minions.

huh,... are trying to say the same thing?!

the point I'm trying to say is w/ the system in place in the USA, the enemy from w/ in is "Crony Capitalism" that worships at the alter of unsustainable consumption

so if systems in place "fail" because of self interest in keeping the powers that be in positions of power,... the last line of defense is our own personal ability to recognize what is happening using knowledge of math and reason, to figure out what exactly is happening

one other tool at our disposal is a belief system,... this internal moral compass hopefully is oriented in the right direction to do "good"

Michael Munger:... I worry that economics has abandoned the position of emphasizing character, norms, and morality. And, one of the reasons that I'm a political scientist and philosopher rather than an economist in terms of my academic affiliation, is precisely that I'm worried about the structure of preferences and the sustainability of the willingness of people to try to act in the right way, even if it may be illegal. And let me emphasize: The real problem here is the ability of rational state actors to restructure the legal rules in ways that over time could corrupt moral character that might otherwise prevent a move in this direction. So, the real problem is we have to take the public choice objection seriously. Members--people who work for the state, elected officials and bureaucrats--are rational and they are entrepreneurs. They are looking for ways to increase their power.

http://www.econtalk.org/michael-munger- ... /#comments

and at the end of the day, after all is said and done,... we the people should realize we just have just one common home, that "our children" will inherit!

http://www.TinyURL.com/HowBigIsTheEarth

[Newfie]

I disagree that I interjected politics, however it has gone there and is off topic.

If you three agree I will simply delete my post and the responding posts from the thread and we can bring it back on topic. Your call.

Any further off topic posts here will be deleted without question.

XXXXX NOTE ADDED. XXXXX
Just drop me a PM to express your desire, if you have one. Not here.

[phaster]

these past few days, have been exploring ways to make people more aware of risk(s) associated w/ climate change,... san diego is a major city w/ events such as a "startup" convention

https://startupsd.org/sw2019/schedule/

this was the first time I attended and found it kinda interesting

some of the talks I attended on energy and autonomous vehicle research where not widely followed, which was no big surprise since the success rates are not likely, the "payoffs" take a long time and the brain power requirement to play in this field are high,... on the positive side the eco-system in the sector in the SD area is very, very, very supportive!!!

went to a few eCommerce talks, where various marketers shared their observations on using AI to craft their messages to increase sales

also at the event were speakers on "branding" and "pitching"

after attending the event thought it might be interesting to look into what could be used from insights on "branding" and "pitching" and apply it to selling the idea so to speak, about education the public about "climate change"

just happens also this past week, there was an evening discussion group from an national organization specifically interested in the topic of "climate change" so attended to do some market research on customers

Food, Soil and Global Warming
https://sandiego350.org/blog/event/civi_event_781/

directly asked some of the organizers and volunteers at the "350" gathering if they could describe the scientific mechanism associated w/ climate change (AND also mentioned there was a paper that did a survey in the SD area that found basically no one was able to actually describe the scientific mechanism associated w/ climate change)

sad to say my small rough sample at the "Food, Soil and Global Warming" evening discussion at an organization specifically interested in the topic of climate change,... seems to confirm the study that the public in general does not know shit about climate science

FWIW also asked the same question about knowledge about the actual mechanism for climate change at the startup conference, and no one I asked could correctly answer the question

at the startup event did talk to individuals who specialize in crafting messages to sell an idea or product,... basically they suggest crafting a phrase that tells a story in a few seconds,... so what I came up w/ to describe "climate change" on a pitch deck is a tag line that accurately describes the issue

“We” can’t fix a problem that people don’t understand

they also suggested having the PDF in "landscape" w/ a few more visuals images so it could be used in a formal presentation or a handout

http://www.TinyURL.com/HowBigIsTheEarth

thoughts on the PDF "pitch"

[Newfie]

Yeah, that pretty much matches my experiences, though it sounds like you did a more through search. I talked to a few climate change “activist” and the clear message I got was that they were Poly-sci types who were looking for some movement to be attached to, they happened to chose climate change. It’s not all, but far too many.

I’ve said elsewhere I believe the percent of Americans who really understand climate change, even in a layman’s fashion. Is under 5%.

[phaster]

based upon what I've read and my own recent rough market research survey at a "350" meetup, I don't think even 5% of scientists specifically studying climate change understand the whole risk to the system because one big item they have not considered the structure of global economic debt

one other insight I've come to is,... since there is basically zero scientific understanding of the mechanisms that cause the "green house effect" what actually is going on in the general public, is a battle of beliefs!!!

I kinda came to this conclusion based on the numbers and the fact that the "350" climate activist meeting I went to the other evening, was in a hall of a place of worship

anyway on the belief in man made climate change side there are gods for lack of a better term, like roger revelle who was one of the first scientists to ponder the effect of CO2

on the non belief side of man made climate change there is "god" who according to devout believers is said to have created the heavens and the earth,... AND among these devout religious believers are people who have a vested economic interest in keeping the unsustainable status quo system, so they align themselves w/ devout believers in "god"

[Newfie]

I have come to a very similar conclusion.

Some 10 or so years ago my Wife got invited to a Bill McKibben event, because she was a donor we got invited to an after speech cocktail party. I collared Bill for a quick question. “Years ago you said if we don’t act now it will be too late. You are still saying the same thing. What’s up.” Bill “Well it is too late to stop climate change, we are just trying to reduce the worst effects.” (All very approximate. He went on to say it was time for civil disobedience e and the elderly should lead as the young have too much to loose.

[eclipse]

Who thinks part of the problem is that the big climate activist and conservation groups also happen to be greenwashers that think a little wind and solar will do the job? I'm with Dr James Hansen when he says believing in 100% renewables is like believing in the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy. Renewables are intermittent and too unreliable to do the job. https://tinyurl.com/yclaf2sn
Hansen says the world should build 115 reactors a year to clean up electricity alone by 2050 (including bringing the poor out of poverty and allowing for population growth.) https://tinyurl.com/zp3552t
That also includes about a third of our road transport needs if we run the plants at full power overnight.
NREL studies show we can convert about a third of our cars into EV's without requiring a single extra power plant if we turn all our baseload plants up to full and charge at night. This would mainly be light vehicles like family cars and light trucks. “For the United States as a whole, 84% of US cars, pickup trucks and SUVs could be supported by the existing infrastructure”
http://tinyurl.com/y6b6s7nx

This means that we can charge about a third of today's vehicles for "free" on today's electricity grid without building a single new power plant. Another study confirms that "the grid has enough excess capacity to support over 150 million battery-powered cars, or about 75 percent of the cars, pickups, and SUVs on the road in the United States." Technology Review August 2013 http://tinyurl.com/y3qvtv5k

[Newfie]

Well that’s a good idea. It would also be a good idea to move more folks to telecommuting so that we required less travel.

Also to encourage car pools and such so that we made fewer trips.

There is no doubt much could be done if we had the desire.

But back on topic, of how to teach kids about climate change.

It might be interesting to do a demonstration of how much energy it take to melt ice. Would probably need to be a video to retain interest. Ice is something kids handle, they can see the video and then ponder how it works as they drink an ice laden soda. And that can relate to melting the oceans sea ice and how once that’s gone there will be faster temperature rise.

[phaster]

last wed had an invite to the university club where four speakers from SD startup week kinda had a panel discussion about what transpired

was kinda interesting getting the VC (venture capital) reasons why they felt san diego area was more desirable than silicon valley

afterward the panel, had an opportunity to share my non-profit education idea w/ the speakers, and the response was to have people beat up on the "pitch" so that I get better at the story telling,...

thought since I noticed a big hesitation from people who asked a panel questions at a catholic "faith and science" I attended last year, why not try and "teach" on a website forum w/ grown ups who most likely have formed a strong opinion on the issue

just checked back,... and it seems the ball so to speak, is still rolling

https://forums.catholic.com/t/what-do-y ... te-change/

basically figure answering "climate change" questions there is good practice

will be interesting to see where the forum discussion ends up

[phaster]

at san diego startup week, the big takeaway I learned to appreciate about the pitch was storytelling

for a few days now I've been testing my storytelling climate change pitch to a group that in polls indicates a strong disbelief to the theory of climate change,... specifically devout very conservative catholics

while in a forum discussion, they reminded me that roger revelle was a target of a mis-information marketing champaign,... bundled all the doc's into one PDF so that conspiracy aficionados can see for themselves there is truth to the expression where there is smoke trying to hide the science,... there unfortunately is climate change

www.TinyURL.com/RevelleDoubt

have a look at the document it makes for some interesting reading

[Ibon]

I would assume that most children do not have much of a vested interest in the status quo and are a lot more wide open and receptive to the dangers of climate change.

The very children today will be moving into
their influential adult years exactly when the feedbacks from climate start to kick in.

The denial still resilient today will have long been replaced with undeniable reality events by then.

[Ibon]

Something else regarding the psychology of denial. The acceptance of evolution went through the same initial denial...

The stronger the pushback of denial the more this is evidence that it obviously creates a conflict in the heads of those in denial. That charge indicates that they know there is truth there.

That is also the reason why those in denial can so quickly flip over to acceptance once the catalyst of consequences start emerging.

The greater the denial the closer to the surface is aquiessence... as consequences increase the wiggle room to rationalize your denial reduces to the point where you then flip, quite quickly, over to acceptance..

[Newfie]

I know of at least one guy who flipped almost overnight. Not sure what got to him but it was more of a “conversion” kind of thing. A pretty thoughtful guy but still just made the move from one camp to the other.

Just a guess, the discussion has become so polarized that it is hard to hold median positions, “you are either for ‘em or a’gin ‘em.”

[phaster]

I know of at least one guy who flipped almost overnight. Not sure what got to him but it was more of a “conversion” kind of thing. A pretty thoughtful guy but still just made the move from one camp to the other.

Just a guess, the discussion has become so polarized that it is hard to hold median positions, “you are either for ‘em or a’gin ‘em.”

of course there is passion in the climate debate yet thus far the discussion thus far is pretty civil,... but I'd say that is what would be expected given the homogeneity of religious background (i.e. catholic),... now if a mormon were to offer an opinion on CC there be a real cat fight, hehehehehe

as an insider of sorts, I've been point out things I noticed like some attendees at a "faith and science" had noticeable difficulty believing evolution and not get much push back,... whereas if I were just some outsider that said I was a devout atheist and said catholic's who don't don't get the science of evolution are dumbshits,... yup that would be a real cat fight!!!

at startup week there was a presentation about hacking amazon I found interesting,... basically it was about testing which words in ads sold the most product

so for shits and giggles while the topic of marketing and specific words was still fresh in my mind, thought I'd try a climate change pitch copy in another voice,...

(here is my CC comment in a PO "hipster voice")

Dear Hipster:

you and your hipster brethren and sistren along w/ non-hipsters are all in a bind because the coping mechanism of trying to pretend you’re busy maintaining a sufficient level of cool, ironic detachment from mainstream social problems does nothing to protect anyone from adverse effects of "climate change"

BTW same goes for hipster brethren and sistren along w/ non-hipsters who care too much, and deal with it by making a big show of it

yeah I know, these are pretty bold statements,... sadly why I say this is because it seems according to a study, based on a survey taken in america's finest collection of detached neighborhoods (i.e. $an Diego),... the actual scientific knowledge about the why CO2 is a "green house gas" is essentially zero!

http://www.TinyURL.com/HowBigIsTheEarth

This URL "redirect" goes to a PDF on google docs, that references the "climate illiteracy" study as well as outlines "101" hard scientific knowledge that should be well understood if the goal to address/fix the problem(s)

bottom line,... to fix this mess, people in general are going to have to grow some big ones AND become scientific literate ASAP

just sayin

Mitigating climate change with more than #NODAPL protests
https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/201 ... dapl-prot/