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Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 4

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 20 May 2019, 16:44:36

shortonoil wrote:Does any one know the number of lbs of cannabis oil produced per acre? Henry Ford ran his prototype Model T Ford on cannabis oil.


Does anyone have a count on the number and size of the bets that Shorty has lost to date?
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby eclipse » Tue 21 May 2019, 03:44:18

Kelp grows 30 times faster than any land based plant and truly VAST kelp farms (9% of the world's oceans!) could de-acidify the oceans, stimulate fisheries, increase productivity, feed the world, provide us with liquid fuels, paper, building products — even seaweed concrete — and return the world's CO2 to 350ppm by 2085 if we really get cracking! https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/saving-the-oceans/
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby shortonoil » Tue 21 May 2019, 06:56:08

What do you think of this equation (from page 8 of shortys paper):
Is a minus sign missing ? What is the effect if the sign is missing ?


A minus sign would represent "negative" entropy. The flow of entropy determines the direction for the arrow of time. Negative entropy would mean that there is a location in the universe where time is running backwards. (theme to the Twilight Zone playing in the background).

Someone is watching far too much TV. Was that the same show where the Egyptians had the pyramids flown in from Alpha Centauri?

For those with some remaining vestige of intellectual curiosity; is a Black Hole an area of the universe where time IS running backward?

Cosmologists break out in hives just thinking about it.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby shortonoil » Tue 21 May 2019, 07:13:18

Does anyone have a count on the number and size of the bets that Shorty has lost to date?


Yes: ZERO

That is mathematically: 1 less than 1 (1 -1 = 0).

Is that equal to 0 times ∞?

Questioner’s brain goes into infinite loop state. Responses remain constant.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 21 May 2019, 09:15:25

Yes: ZERO

Please explain then the point Kublikhan has made numerous times that you welched on the bet made back in late 2016:

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Every time he brings this up you go silent or change the subject and then after a period of time seem to hope everyone has forgotten all about it and you claim you never lost a bet. :roll:
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby Baduila » Tue 21 May 2019, 11:58:33

Adam,

the second law of thermodynamics is one of the most important laws of physics. It is valid for all processes in the world, mechanical, thermal, biological etc. This law can't be violated, thats impossible. It is the only law of physics determining the direction of time. All other laws are time-invariant and can run in both directions.

The "entropy rate balance" is the mathematical wording for this law; it is the same as the second law.
It is not necessary to mention the second law in a book or paper of reservoir engineering, it is valid without mentioning it. Even if no reservoir engineer ever used it, it is valid for all processes running in the world, like oil production.

It is not necessary to wait for a peer review for people having enough mathematical understanding like me. I'm able to check the equations myself; i propose to each other to do the same.
In this special case, a peer review is only for morons. Too many people exist who are payed by unknowns having the goal to suppress the discussion. Too many people wish BAU will run forever.

Shorty, i asked Adam to find out if he ever has tried to understand the ETP-Model. His answer shows he has never done that, and that he does not feel able to do it himself.

I see, 457 views on my graph have happened, so i add: For the people who do not understand why so much entropy must be generated: It is necessary to change the temperature equilibrium of earth.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby shortonoil » Tue 21 May 2019, 14:24:59

The Etp Model is a Second Law statement because it is derived from a Second Law statement; "the entropy rate balance equation for control volumes". The Second Law is not peer reviewed because it has no peers; unless you are Stephen William Hawking. The Etp Model can only be contested on its application. Even though it has one weak point, that has not been pointed out by any of its, so called, critics. Therefore we concluded that they were idiots, shrills, or just didn't understand it to begin with. Arguing with any of the above is like fraternizing with Zombies. Your hair starts falling out, and your teeth get loose.


The Etp Model is an engineering report, and they are NOT peer reviewed. They are either used by other engineers, or they aren't. Engineers do not attempt to extend the Laws of Physics; they only use those laws as tools to gain insight into physical phenomena. Phenomena that usually has some economic significance. This one has a massive amount of economic significance. Significance to the point of determining the future of this entire civilization. Since a correlation like this one just does not happen very often in nature, it is worth looking at a little deeper.

If your teeth are getting loose, and your hair has started to fall out you have other problems - so skip it.

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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 21 May 2019, 14:31:06

shortonoil wrote:
What do you think of this equation (from page 8 of shortys paper):
Is a minus sign missing ? What is the effect if the sign is missing ?


A minus sign would represent "negative" entropy.


Thank you Shorty for that clarification. Now can you tell us which reservoir engineer gave you impression that this equation or any derivative of it has been used in their work, and how?

2+2=4, therefore I deduce that 2 = 4 /2...now I claim the world is going to end because that is the conclusion I wish to draw.

shortonoil wrote:The flow of entropy determines the direction for the arrow of time. Negative entropy would mean that there is a location in the universe where time is running backwards. (theme to the Twilight Zone playing in the background).


Fortunate indeed that no one needed this equation in determining industry reserves, lifting costs or equipment, gathering system calculations related to standard equipment requirements, thermal gradient effects on pipe, drilling, completion or production operations, or anything else in the history of the industry until you decided it was important to draw the conclusion you wanted to arrive at...even if you used my far simpler to understand equatoin demonstrated above.

And at no time have we discussed science yet, the thing that has already dispatched your paper in the scientific communities version of the gong show.

Shorty wrote:Someone is watching far too much TV. Was that the same show where the Egyptians had the pyramids flown in from Alpha Centauri?


Are you speaking for yourself who has made no claims on even getting your paper into review, or is this what you pretend your sock puppets do in their spare time?
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 21 May 2019, 14:34:21

shortonoil wrote:
Does anyone have a count on the number and size of the bets that Shorty has lost to date?


Yes: ZERO


Your number appears to differ from Asg70's claim, and unlike you, asg70 isn't running around making crap up that has already been discredited by reality.

That reservoir engineer you discussed Baduila's irrelevant equation with, how many hours did you spend with them determining the value of your idea?

And when does the paper not end up as the punchline to...you know....

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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 21 May 2019, 14:40:40

Baduila wrote:Adam,

the second law of thermodynamics is one of the most important laws of physics.


Please detail for the class that didn't make it through thermodynamics class during engineering schule why a Shorty as educator sock puppet should be instructing anyone on anything if they can only welsh on bets?

Did you learn this from Lyndon LaRouche? The welshing part?

I'm sorry but I think I must object on general principles to be lectured by someone who has claimed no more background in science than my cocker spaniel has, particularly when lecturing a Mod as though they do, and when confronted by someone who has, can only pretend that an engineer needs a refresher on Thermodynamics 101 from a data cherry picking welsher.

I will discuss the paper on its merits.

Now run along sock puppet short.

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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 21 May 2019, 14:55:03

shortonoil wrote:The Etp Model is a Second Law statement because it is derived from a Second Law statement; "the entropy rate balance equation for control volumes".


Outstanding!!! And all the ignorant, cherry picked, bad assumptions and industry and economic ignorance in the paper? What is that derived from? Study time at Lyndon LaRouche's school for the waywardly stupid?

Where in my career as a reservoir engineer have I needed your equation? Ever?

Need some more room to maneuver? Fine. Where in my career as a production engineer have I needed your equation? Ever?

Need some more room to maneuver? Fine. Where in my drilling and completion career have I needed your equation? Ever?

Pick your sub-specialty, I've worked in all 3, a little more in 2, but I still consult across all 3.

Still too difficult? Fine. How about this? You represent your "model/system/can't get reviewed paper" as industry representative, which implies something we already know to not be true (that you are familiar with the industry).

Perhaps you would prefer to discuss how anything I have ever done in the oil field would be improved by knowing your equation? So. How can anything petroleum engineers do in the field, office, rig or frack van be improved by knowing your equation?

If you are willing to admit that your equation is meaningless at the practical petroleum engineering level, that is okay. Then we can discuss if it is meaningful from a scientific or economic perspective in general.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 21 May 2019, 16:10:33

The Etp Model is an engineering report, and they are NOT peer reviewed.


are you now claiming that you did not submit a paper dealing with the ETP model for publication? Said paper having not passed review and hence not published? I suspect someone can search the forum to check that out. :roll:
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby marmico » Tue 21 May 2019, 17:27:19

shortonoil on Mon, 22nd Aug 2016 7:46 am

“ETP model is the most retarded fucking bullshit I’ve ever heard of. Short should publish in a peer reviewed journal or shut the fuck up once and for all. “

Your don’t keep up very well, do you?

I’ve posted this here, on the main page, and in the Etp Model thread.

The Hill’s Group, in collaboration with Dr. Louis Arnoux of nGeni™ , and Dr. Alistor Hamilton of the Dept of Mechanical Engineering, Edinburgh are preparing two papers. One by invitation in Dr. Charles Hall’s the “Journal of Physics and Quality Resources” and one for the Royal Academy of Sciences.

The papers will be intended for academics, and knowledgeable readers of the general public.

Which, obviously, leaves you out. Sorry.
But, we do hope that you continue to enjoy your comic books, and tabloids. We also hope that you continue to post your irrelevant, uninformed crap on PO News for the amusement of its readers.

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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby coffeeguyzz » Tue 21 May 2019, 23:26:16

The internet truly IS forever ... n'est ce pas?
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby radon1 » Wed 22 May 2019, 03:08:17

Baduila wrote: it is valid for all processes running in the world


It's not. (Hint: check up its definition, eg. in wikipedia). Meaning that you do not really understand what you are talking about, contrary to your claims.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 22 May 2019, 08:09:47

radon1 wrote:
Baduila wrote: it is valid for all processes running in the world


It's not. (Hint: check up its definition, eg. in wikipedia). Meaning that you do not really understand what you are talking about, contrary to your claims.


We already know that about Short, but when he employs his sock puppets, they are allowed to be stupid. It is one of the points of sock puppets right? They get to say dumb things so the master of puppets can come in and pontificate. Just as Short just did in this thread.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby Yoshua » Fri 24 May 2019, 14:20:07

Chinese independent refineries are losing USD 8 on each barrel of crude.

When crude prices rose, gasoline prices didn't rise equally as the Chinese economy is slowing down as the EROEI is deteriorating.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti ... ssion=true
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby EdwinSm » Sat 25 May 2019, 00:40:30

"Tea Pot" makes it sound small, but the article had them refining about 1/3rd of China's output. I wonder how the State owned 2/3rds are doing. By denying the smaller refiners export licenses it does seem that the government is pushing things back into the State owned sphere.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby shortonoil » Sat 25 May 2019, 11:14:30

When crude prices rose, gasoline prices didn't rise equally as the Chinese economy is slowing down as the EROEI is deteriorating.


The world's petroleum producers have been pumping the planet intensively for 159 years. They have always taken the best of what could be found; what's left is getting pretty crappy. We have now extracted about 40% of all the liquid hydrocarbons on the planet. The other 60% will cost more than they are worth because they have to be squeezed out of solid rock. It has gotten so bad that hardly anyone is even looking for the stuff anymore. With no new oil coning on line to keep the ERoEI of the average field up, it is starting to fall off a Seneca cliff.

We can only wonder how well the Chinese refiners will do at -$12.00? ERoEI is like a bad penny; - it always keeps coming back!

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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 5

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 25 May 2019, 12:13:43

The other 60% will cost more than they are worth because they have to be squeezed out of solid rock.


Please give us an example where oil has not come from a reservoir that is in fact "solid rock". All reservoirs are lithified with the exception of the exposed part of the oil sands where sandstone is unconsolidated. The Jurassic Arab D carbonates that produce in Saudi Arabia? Solid Rock. The Cretaceous Burgan sandstone that is the largest conventional clastic reservoir in the world? Solid Rock. Indeed unconventional reservoirs in shaley formation actually have higher porosity than the vast majority of conventional reservoirs, it is the permeability that is lower that is somewhat independent of the consolidated nature of the reservoir.

It has gotten so bad that hardly anyone is even looking for the stuff anymore.


With the exception of about 100 oil and gas companies investigating unconventional reservoirs in the US, all of the majors who are still busy drilling exploration wells around the world etc, etc. :roll:

With no new oil coning on line to keep the ERoEI of the average field up, it is starting to fall off a Seneca cliff.


So I guess this is about the fifth time you have to be instructed that according to the E&Y annual review of oil and gas reserves in the US that the top 50 companies have more than replaced their production year on year (about 150% annually over of 5 year period)....that is all new production. And the BP annual Energy study illustrates that the reserve life index of most countries in the world has not decreased over the past number of years, meaning produced reserves are being replaced there as well. Not sure why you think it is good practice to ignore data, especially when it tells the world you are full of crap. :roll:
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