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Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby vox_mundi » Thu 04 Oct 2018, 20:13:56

GHung wrote:Freakin' mad man. Pegs my doom-o-meter.

Don't Panic!

Energy Secretary Oops (AKA Rick Perry) has everything under control.
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Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 04 Oct 2018, 20:22:06

What a pile of BS. For one thing the last set of equipment was partially emplaced and the wells already drilled when President Clinton ordered the moratorium in 1993. So the wells are already there and installing the instruments sure as heck doesn't take six months unless you are on some wacky cost plus contract where every day of delay leads to a bigger payout.

For decades the USA routinley planned and executed a set of tests every year. Initially in the South Pacific and then from the early 1950's in the Nevada test Site. Above ground tests in the Pacific were ended in the early 1960's when the USSR promised to stop open air testing after Tsar Bomba and our government went along.

But deep testing is and was perfectly legit and continued from the mid 1960's after the atmospheric test ban all the way to 1993 when President Clinton instituted the moratorium. The problem is, to have a real credible deterrent you can not just claim your 30 year old designs are perfect and effective. Every now and then you need to pull something out of the inventory and test it to see how real world aging may have effected it. Be a shame to have a nuclear war because the Chinese or Russia know their weapons are fully functional but they believe ours have corroded into uselessness.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby GHung » Thu 04 Oct 2018, 20:31:02

Madman.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Thu 04 Oct 2018, 21:46:34

Nuclear surety is part of process of keeping our nuclear deterrent credible.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 07:14:26

Cog wrote:Nuclear surety is part of process of keeping our nuclear deterrent credible.


Exactly! I don't want to have a nuclear war just because our deterrent is doubted by foreign powers!

Nuclear weapons exist no matter how hard you squeeze your eyes closed and wish them away. Unless or until every country allows unlimited inspection by an international search force they will remain in arsenals all over the place whether the country in question is an official nuclear weapon power or not.

I don't foresee any circumstances where the UK, France, China, India, Pakistan, Russia, USA and Israel are all going to welcome in an international disarmament force. So long as one country has nuclear weapons nobody else is going to give them up. If a major power believes the USA arsenal is not a real threat the temptation of making a first strike becomes a very real threat to world peace.

Let me be clear, I think adopting the MAD standard of defense in the 1960's was a huge mistake, but it has kept us from actually getting into a war for almost two generations. The M in MAD stands for Mutual, because all sides believe an attack on another power would mean retaliation that would destroy them as well. Keep ignoring assurance of function and sooner or later someone is going to decide to roll the dice on civilization.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 10:09:54

But what most people I believe think, is that the very creation and deployment of Nuclear Weapons was a huge and tragic mistake. It is like the nuclear genie is out of the bottle and no putting it back in.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 10:46:16

The employment of two nuclear weapons on Japan saved millions of lives. Most of which were Japanese. While MAD doctrine might not make logical sense, no one has employed a nuclear weapon in war for 73 years.

Research operation Olympic and Downfall.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 11:44:07

Cog wrote:The employment of two nuclear weapons on Japan saved millions of lives. Most of which were Japanese. While MAD doctrine might not make logical sense, no one has employed a nuclear weapon in war for 73 years.

Research operation Olympic and Downfall.

Yeah, well research the Cuban Missile Crisis and how close we came to all out nuclear war. Also, research briefcase size nuclear weapons. Given our history of warfare and emotional mindset, having such a devaststing weapon being produced by several countries and with instructions on manufacturing a tactical nuclear weapon on the Net, this should not provide any sense of comfort to anyone. Asymetrical warfare is the manner anyone with a grievance can lash out. And the destruction they can inflict with a nuclear weapon is enormous. So, nothing more complicated than an economic transaction whereby supply meets demand
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 11:58:49

onlooker wrote:
Cog wrote:The employment of two nuclear weapons on Japan saved millions of lives. Most of which were Japanese. While MAD doctrine might not make logical sense, no one has employed a nuclear weapon in war for 73 years.

Research operation Olympic and Downfall.

Yeah, well research the Cuban Missile Crisis and how close we came to all out nuclear war. Also, research briefcase size nuclear weapons. Given our history of warfare and emotional mindset, having such a devaststing weapon being produced by several countries and with instructions on manufacturing a tactical nuclear weapon on the Net, this should not provide any sense of comfort to anyone. Asymetrical warfare is the manner anyone with a grievance can lash out. And the destruction they can inflict with a nuclear weapon is enormous. So, nothing more complicated than an economic transaction whereby supply meets demand


We know foreign countries are not about to give up their nuclear weapons so what do you suggest we do about it? As you said, the genie is out of the bottle and will not be put back, so what is your alternative? Completely disarm the USA and hope no tyrant ever takes over a different nuclear power? Pakistan and India each have over 100 devices, possibly many more. We do not live in a perfect world, far from it. If the USA were not able to retaliate what is to stop some future Jihadi leader of Pakistan from striking the USA to rid the world of the 'Great Satan'? Like it or not we have made a lot of enemies around the world in the last century, and if we were vulnerable to a first strike without the ability to retaliate you can bet dollars to doughnuts one or another of them would hit us as hard as they possibly could. A dozen destroyed cities could be the cost of your disarmament plan in our imperfect world, if we were lucky, and the top hundred population centers if you are talking a true revenge mission strike.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 12:08:18

Tanada, I am not pretending to offer any such disarmament solution. Which is why I said the biggest mistake was their creation and development in the first place. I see no solution except perhaps in some farther off future. How a nuclear weapons free world can be accomplished.? I haven't the slightest clue or even whether it is possible.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 12:29:59

Nuclear weapons were inevitable. Both Japan and Germany had them under development in WW2. The US economy plus the recruiting of scientific minds from many countries enabled the US to win that particular race.

I happen to agree, Nagasaki and Hiroshima - both legitimate military targets in WW2 - were the price for 73 years of peace. Maybe we need a larger threat to secure the peace now.

Kinetic enegy weapons delivered from orbit may be most of the answer. Just as destructive as nukes, they offer pinpoint accuracy and zero nuclear fallout or ground contamination. The size of the industrial base necessary to support a space program will ensure that no upstart countries join the select Kinetic Energy Weapons club. Any country that employs a first strike nuclear weapon - or multiple Muslim countries if NGO groups like Al Quaida employ such - would face a rain of rocks from space until they literally rejoin the Stone Age.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 16:18:36

KaiserJeep wrote:Nuclear weapons were inevitable. Both Japan and Germany had them under development in WW2. The US economy plus the recruiting of scientific minds from many countries enabled the US to win that particular race.

I happen to agree, Nagasaki and Hiroshima - both legitimate military targets in WW2 - were the price for 73 years of peace. Maybe we need a larger threat to secure the peace now.

Kinetic enegy weapons delivered from orbit may be most of the answer. Just as destructive as nukes, they offer pinpoint accuracy and zero nuclear fallout or ground contamination. The size of the industrial base necessary to support a space program will ensure that no upstart countries join the select Kinetic Energy Weapons club. Any country that employs a first strike nuclear weapon - or multiple Muslim countries if NGO groups like Al Quaida employ such - would face a rain of rocks from space until they literally rejoin the Stone Age.


The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. You need something like the novel setting to acvomplish a sustained large scale bombardment.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby eclipse » Tue 30 Apr 2019, 03:20:18

A fascinating question is how long it would take for civilisation to rebuild after a nuclear war.

Isaac Arthur (physicist and futurist) predicts industrial society would have mostly rebuilt within a few generations of a nuclear war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWmEgu1iP_E

In some ways it would be much faster than the first industrial revolution, as we have already learned the laws of physics and chemistry and biology that make the modern world possible. All survivors would have to do is dig through buried libraries and dig up the engineering information to start rebuilding things. In other ways it would be slower and more dependent on local renewable energy sources as we've already burned up all the easy to get fossil fuels. But they'd get things up and running eventually, even if the local workshop had to stop working on cloudy days. Smart survivalists might have seen the war coming and downloaded and printed out this "Civilisation starter kit" to have some knowledge to trade. https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/ ... ine-index/
But if not, other places will have their technical people dig up and study old manuals (by candlelight?) in the evenings as they're will be no TV for a while. What else are you going to do but research that next component to salvage for your workshop needs?

Bit by bit society would build up again, but in a more walkable, human based city plan. Energy would be more valuable and prioritised for the most important survival and salvaging efforts. That is, until finally someone gets the nukes started again. Once they get the breeder reactors up and running, any nuclear waste in that country becomes an incredible asset that could power the nation for centuries to come.
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
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