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Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 13:57:15

Newfie wrote:
Put like that it sounds homey, but it’s not. The new path is absolutely clear. We need to reduce consumption as far and as fast as we can using whatever tools we have available. The first goal is to convienced as many folks as possible of the not only the NECESSITY of Reduce, Reuse, Recycle but also the BENIFITS.


When Cog's grandaughter espouses the merits of collective altruism nobody will see Cog turning over in his grave. It wont matter anymore.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 14:16:39

Ibon wrote:
Yonnipun wrote:
Sadly we have not gone very far beyond that and when placed in extreme stress we revert totally to kill or be killed.


It absolutely blows my mind that some people who turned to cannibalism during extreme famines would eat their own children.


Your rational cerebral cortex mind can be out voted by your Hypothalamus when hunger reaches a certain point.

Some mothers would sacrifice their own bodies to sustain their children. Others may eat their children. This is one of the most brutal ways that natural selection can find that right balance between altruism and selfishness.

Homo sapiens are an amalgam of both.


And it is also related to the cultural programming. I completly get Yonnipuns point that he can’t contemplate the act. But that’s because of the culture he (and I) grew up in. All kinds of things are possible IF that is a historic part of your culture.

Let’s take Victorian England for example. It’s a bit less brutal example, I’ve read a book about it, and it’s verifiable, and it’s about sex.

Most of us have been a aculturated to believe the Victorian period was one of very uptight sexual morality. And it was, for most. But within the upper echelons it was quite different. In those circles marriages were engagements of mutual financial interest. Which coupling could most benefit both parties. It was widely held that neither sex had any physical obligation to their spouse and sexual assignations abounded. The Queens son, and future king, had trysts too numerous to count. In fact he bulk ordered some broach like clocks for his “conquests” to wear as a subtle sign of pride that they had bedded “his highness.” Apparently they were rather cheaply made and infrequently ran. Still they were a matter of pride and reports are that at some smart dinner parties over half the ladies would be wearing his highness’ medal of dishonor proudly. This period lasted well into the 20th century. Churchill’s mother bedded over a dozen men and named his (half) brother after the father, which brought her social rebuke. Churchill’s own Wife recieved advice that she should take a well placed lover to further Churchill’s career, she demurred. Shackleton was essentially a gigalo to a bankers wife, the banker financed Shackeltons exploits to keep him out of her pants. While Mountbatten was Supream Eastern Commander during WWII his Wife came to visit, but shacked up with one of the district rulers. On and on and on it goes.

This behavior was completly tolerated within that elite class culture because they were raised to expect it. While at the same time the middle class and below were turning themselves inside out to deny their inherit sexuality.

The point of this too long post is simply that the human mind is extreamly plyable, especially while young. We can be induced to do and believe almost anything.

Look at North Korea today. Or look at this quote from not too long ago.

It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise.


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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 14:30:48

I completly get Yonnipuns point that he can’t contemplate the act.


Actually I can contemplate the act. I think people are willing to do anything to survive. Some more and some less. We just live in such an abundance that we can not imagine this could happen to us.

Your rational cerebral cortex mind can be out voted by your Hypothalamus when hunger reaches a certain point.


I partly agree but how would you explain those families who swapped their children in order to lessen the pain that came from eating your own flesh. It seems their cerelbral was working fine.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Pops » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 15:17:41

Newfie wrote:And what is the point of the conversation in arguing about Capitalisim vs. Socialisim? It makes as much sense as religious sect wars; Shite vs Sunni.

Compared to the conversation about sex & cannibalism?
LOL
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 16:26:17

The point was that our attitudes are shaped by our culture. The culture is shaped by marketing. If we desire to change our future then we need to market something better.

I was using some marketing in my post, sex sells. Got you to read it.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 17:20:17

"We’re gobbling up the Earth’s resources at an unsustainable rate"

https://www.unenvironment.org/news-and- ... nable-rate
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Pops » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 17:24:06

Newfie wrote:sex sells. Got you to read it.

I I'm more of a visual guy, LOL
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby careinke » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 17:47:17

Ibon wrote:[*]
KaiserJeep wrote:All you fools seem to think................................


When you start a post like that you make yourself the biggest fool of all because you are posting to make a point but by starting out calling everyone a fool you fail in your attempt to communicate.

How downright foolish


Got to agree with you there. Insulting your audiance usually does not pay off. Just ask Hitlary.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby careinke » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 18:16:45

Newfie wrote:The new path is absolutely clear. We need to reduce consumption as far and as fast as we can using whatever tools we have available. The first goal is to convienced as many folks as possible of the not only the NECESSITY of Reduce, Reuse, Recycle but also the BENIFITS.


I would add "Reject", as in reject buying stuff that is harmful or needless, to your collection of R words.

In addition, our entire Tax system should stop taxing labor, and start taxing consumption. Yes I know a straight consumption tax is regressive, but that can be easily overcome with a Tax Prebate to all citizens.

After that, we need to figure out how many people are sustainable in this country and adjust our immigration rate accordingly. We should encourage other sovereign countries to follow suit.

Finally, we should pay for sterilization on a sliding scale. They less children you have before sterilization the more you earn. We could even expand this to third world nations. Give women five years salary in exchange for sterilization.

We all hopefully realize the two main causes of our current delima are overpopulation AND overconsumption, we need to address both. So here is my plan to save the US and maybe the world.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Pops » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 20:37:58

A punitive tax is fine but taxing EVs & PV panels is counterproductive.
Tax the actual culprits: fossil fuels, livestock, N fertilizer.
Maybe just start by not subsidising them.

Or maybe we could get car makers to make cars more fuel efficient?
How about mandate some zero emission vehicles to get the ball rolling?
Coal extraction is awful and outdated, maybe have a plan to get rid of it.
Or, mandate more efficient light bulbs across the board.
Mandate that oil/gas producers plug methane leaks.

Or, instead of all that, how about a PR campaign starring Oprah saying bad things about ripped jeans?

LOL, this site has become such a parody, this thread is the best.
:-D :-D :-D
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 20:55:23

We will be just fine when the PO dynamic really sets in. Then poof alot of consumption will disappear haha
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 22:46:14

Well, I DID stimulate some usefull thoughts, which was the point of that mild insult. But most here as usual have overlooked the basic conundrum caused by overpopulation by humans. This has nothing to do with economic systems and everything to do with ape instincts.

Yet undeniably, Capitalism enables 7.7B to exist and provides 90+% of those folks with modestly more than is needed all the way up to anything the .001% desire. The human race is a raging success story, so far. YES, uncertainty exists in the future - and always has.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby clif » Sun 07 Apr 2019, 00:56:14

The human race is a raging success story, so far.


.... yet we keep filling the only petri dish we know of .... even if it is already too full to last very long .....
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 07 Apr 2019, 05:15:24

careinke wrote:
Newfie wrote:The new path is absolutely clear. We need to reduce consumption as far and as fast as we can using whatever tools we have available. The first goal is to convienced as many folks as possible of the not only the NECESSITY of Reduce, Reuse, Recycle but also the BENIFITS.


I would add "Reject", as in reject buying stuff that is harmful or needless, to your collection of R words.

In addition, our entire Tax system should stop taxing labor, and start taxing consumption. Yes I know a straight consumption tax is regressive, but that can be easily overcome with a Tax Prebate to all citizens.

After that, we need to figure out how many people are sustainable in this country and adjust our immigration rate accordingly. We should encourage other sovereign countries to follow suit.

Finally, we should pay for sterilization on a sliding scale. They less children you have before sterilization the more you earn. We could even expand this to third world nations. Give women five years salary in exchange for sterilization.

We all hopefully realize the two main causes of our current delima are overpopulation AND overconsumption, we need to address both. So here is my plan to save the US and maybe the world.



Carinke,

Some good thoughts there. In the Immigration Thread I posted a link to a Tucker Carlson piece where he asks: How many people do we want in America? How many should be immigrants? What do we want in an immigrant?

So maybe the conversation is starting?
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 07 Apr 2019, 17:06:23

Consumerism. I was thinking about the origins of this. Of course fossil fuels created the abundance to allow hundreds of millions to indulge in it and advertisers seduce hundreds of millions to do it.

But at its most fundamental I think consumption is a way to fill a void.

Since it is an ersatz and a compensation it never fills the void. Which is why you keep consuming and consuming.

So the question......where or what is the disconnect? What is missing that consumption tries to replace?

I think modern life creates hundreds of millions of exiles who feel a fundamental disconnection from the natural world. Consumption culture is nothing more than an attempt to fill the void created by this disconnection.

The end game of consumption ironically is that the natural world returns to the forefront. Not in a pretty way.
That is the way we will get back to the garden. Not in a pretty way.

There is something poetic about the way the circle will be complete.

Not in a pretty way.

But we will find our way home.

Not in a pretty way.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 07 Apr 2019, 19:53:20

Quite simply, consumerism happens when one has disposable income. If you have just enough to live on, not a problem. Not quite enough, again no problem. But live long enough, and you outgrow consumerism.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Zarquon » Sun 07 Apr 2019, 20:35:47

careinke wrote:After that, we need to figure out how many people are sustainable in this country and adjust our immigration rate accordingly. We should encourage other sovereign countries to follow suit.

Finally, we should pay for sterilization on a sliding scale. They less children you have before sterilization the more you earn. We could even expand this to third world nations. Give women five years salary in exchange for sterilization.

We all hopefully realize the two main causes of our current delima are overpopulation AND overconsumption, we need to address both. So here is my plan to save the US and maybe the world.


"Would you all please get sterilized so that Americans can consume more. Thank you for your cooperation."
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby careinke » Mon 08 Apr 2019, 02:53:06

Zarquon wrote:
careinke wrote:After that, we need to figure out how many people are sustainable in this country and adjust our immigration rate accordingly. We should encourage other sovereign countries to follow suit.

Finally, we should pay for sterilization on a sliding scale. They less children you have before sterilization the more you earn. We could even expand this to third world nations. Give women five years salary in exchange for sterilization.

We all hopefully realize the two main causes of our current delima are overpopulation AND overconsumption, we need to address both. So here is my plan to save the US and maybe the world.


"Would you all please get sterilized so that Americans can consume more. Thank you for your cooperation."

I did that many years ago. So it looks like your next. :)
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby careinke » Mon 08 Apr 2019, 03:01:03

Newfie wrote:
careinke wrote:
Newfie wrote:The new path is absolutely clear. We need to reduce consumption as far and as fast as we can using whatever tools we have available. The first goal is to convienced as many folks as possible of the not only the NECESSITY of Reduce, Reuse, Recycle but also the BENIFITS.


I would add "Reject", as in reject buying stuff that is harmful or needless, to your collection of R words.

In addition, our entire Tax system should stop taxing labor, and start taxing consumption. Yes I know a straight consumption tax is regressive, but that can be easily overcome with a Tax Prebate to all citizens.

After that, we need to figure out how many people are sustainable in this country and adjust our immigration rate accordingly. We should encourage other sovereign countries to follow suit.

Finally, we should pay for sterilization on a sliding scale. They less children you have before sterilization the more you earn. We could even expand this to third world nations. Give women five years salary in exchange for sterilization.

We all hopefully realize the two main causes of our current delima are overpopulation AND overconsumption, we need to address both. So here is my plan to save the US and maybe the world.



Carinke,

Some good thoughts there. In the Immigration Thread I posted a link to a Tucker Carlson piece where he asks: How many people do we want in America? How many should be immigrants? What do we want in an immigrant?
So maybe the conversation is starting?


Maybe we should put up a couple of Polls asking the same questions. I think we could sustainably support 400 Million in the US comfortably by applying permaculture ethics to everything, I also think a million legal immigrants a year, based on merit, is enough.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 08 Apr 2019, 06:59:52

Polls are tricky to write clearly. I would suggest a very simple poll starting with the concept because even that raises tough issues. But it’s an interesting idea.

Then maybe latter get into the actual numbers and means if population control like restricting immigration and tax credits and who to favor.
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