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Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 16:22:57

Spoken like a true engineer. First off, I do not see any solution until and unless we get our numbers down substantially. Then we must disavow any economic system that does not allow us to remain within our environmental capacity.

I for one do not believe any of us will colonize outer space and even if we did, to forsake Earth as a thriving life supporting planet is madness. So, a halt to our pernicious impacts to our host planet must happen. But it cannot if we continue immersed in an anachronistic economic system and if we do not take bold steps to control our population. Sterilization should be an option and to the point of being enforced.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 17:07:15

You would use the powers of government to sterilize humans? Is that REALLY what you mean? Because the Nazis were the last SOB's that tried that, and the rest of the World spanked them good.

Let it be known that I am in favor of entirely voluntary population control, via education and contraception. If you propose some form of involuntary sterilization, expect me to raise up a mob, complete with pitchforks and torches, and tar and feather you and then ride you out of town on a rail. Which would certainly be less than you deserve.

Any country or world in which your proposal goes unchallenged and ended, does not deserve to live. And I for one could not get off such a stinking planet fast enough.

Not to mention, the math doesn't work on the rest of your proposal. In a state of reduced population, you still want to use the most efficient economic system (Capitalism) rather than another system (anything but capitalism) which hurts the planet by taking more resource for less product.

You strike me as another mind poisoned by those Marxist professors who exist in a dream world.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 17:20:27

You are darn right, that is what I mean. Oh so, you find it offensive to sterilize but not that as we speak many many children are literally dying of starvation. You would allow things to get worse because who has the right to decide eh? Well every action or inaction is a decision. To prolong our devastating impacts is to condemn untold numbers of people to horrid deaths and to unleash a literal chaotic hell on Earth. Think of that movie Soylent Green only much worse. But, no the sanctity of individual rights far outweighs the common good right? Again allowing our species to continue to beseige this planet condemns the entire future of most life on this planet. That is surely a stinking planet I would like to get off of.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 17:29:51

By the way the American Indians managed to live quite well for a long time, with an Economy not resembling in any way Capitalism. Maybe because they remained humbled and understood not to exploit and abuse that which sustains them ie. the planet. But in this modern world, money is what sustains us haha.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 18:05:11

Onlooker,

Whether your solution is right or wrong you made a proposal, good for you.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 18:38:00

Newfie wrote:Onlooker,

Whether your solution is right or wrong you made a proposal, good for you.

At this point, it seems no "good" solution exists
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby mmasters » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 20:41:07

onlooker wrote:
Newfie wrote:Onlooker,

Whether your solution is right or wrong you made a proposal, good for you.

At this point, it seems no "good" solution exists

The only solution is to look within.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Cog » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 20:50:43

onlooker wrote:You are darn right, that is what I mean. Oh so, you find it offensive to sterilize but not that as we speak many many children are literally dying of starvation. You would allow things to get worse because who has the right to decide eh? Well every action or inaction is a decision. To prolong our devastating impacts is to condemn untold numbers of people to horrid deaths and to unleash a literal chaotic hell on Earth. Think of that movie Soylent Green only much worse. But, no the sanctity of individual rights far outweighs the common good right? Again allowing our species to continue to beseige this planet condemns the entire future of most life on this planet. That is surely a stinking planet I would like to get off of.


Forced sterilization huh? Lets flesh out your proposal here. Ok, are you going to execute people alongside a ditch if they resist? I mean if we are going to go full Nazi here, lets get the gas chambers rolling. We will even put Dr. Death Onlooker in charge so he can conduct medical experiments on his prisoners in his free time. After all, why waste the opportunity for free medical research?

I suppose it has never crossed your mind onlooker, why people like me do not endorse your flavor of national socialism.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 22:36:09

onlooker wrote:You are darn right, that is what I mean. Oh so, you find it offensive to sterilize but not that as we speak many many children are literally dying of starvation. You would allow things to get worse because who has the right to decide eh? Well every action or inaction is a decision. To prolong our devastating impacts is to condemn untold numbers of people to horrid deaths and to unleash a literal chaotic hell on Earth. Think of that movie Soylent Green only much worse. But, no the sanctity of individual rights far outweighs the common good right? Again allowing our species to continue to beseige this planet condemns the entire future of most life on this planet. That is surely a stinking planet I would like to get off of.

The UN's WHO has made contraception available to Africans, South Americans, and in general every part of the Turd World. Certainly the decision to bring a child into the world is a voluntary one - IF a woman has access to contraceptives. I grant you, there are parts of the world and religions where the woman cannot choose.

So flesh out your proposal a little. Which women will you forcibly sterilize? Are you forcibly castrating or vasectemizing men as well? How are you going to decide who gets to reproduce and who does not? The German Nazis were producing "Aryans", large tall, and blonde. What sort of people will onlooker select for HIS master race?
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Cog » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 23:58:17

Members of the Democratic Socialist elite would be exempt from such laws of course.

Every time I say that doomers are a death cult, I get dog-piled. But every time I say it, someone proves me right.

Ultimately, it's not about saving the planet or humans with these types. It just about who controls who.

A more accurate thread title would be Ending CC Requires Killing People
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 25 Mar 2019, 08:22:56

OK Cog,

It’s fun to jump on someone for making a proposal to solve a problem. The pentagon is full of admirals and generals who never fought and always require more arms. Never a battle plan.

So how about you push back your armchair and make some proposals. Of course if you did that you will get flack for making up stupid ideas. But your a big guy, man up.

I’ll tell you what, I’ll make it easy. Elsewhere, a could of times, I’ve listed ideas, things we could pursue. Why not jump on some of those ideas and make some constructive comments, suggestions on how to better them.

Jesse, tank about your basic Debbie Downers.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 25 Mar 2019, 09:26:46

Newfie, sorry, but no pass for this one. Onlooker has shown his true spots, admitted the basic Fascist nature of all Marxists. In it's most basic definition, Fascism means using the powers of government to force people to behave as they otherwise would not. Are you suggesting that the involuntary sterilization of human beings as a means of population control is not the ultimate Fascist act?

He has yet to define how he will decide who is allowed to reproduce and who is neutered. Perhaps he will use skin color as a determinant, or political party affiliation, or belief in AGW. Perhaps people will be allowed to purchase birthrights - after all, making money is a proven survival trait.

Perhaps he does not even believe that the last time such population control was attempted, there was a problem - after all, they were sterilizing Jews, Gypsies, and anybody lacking "Aryan" physical traits.

Until onlooker explains the details of his master plan to reduce the world population, we simply do not know whether it is workable, desirable, or practical. For example if a necessary first step is "conquer the world and assert control over all populations everywhere", then I'm opposed to what amounts to another World War. OTOH, if sterilization is voluntary, then the plan is not gonna work. Some of us had one kid and quit, of our own free will, and some had many.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 25 Mar 2019, 09:45:45

Okay, I would start by comparing my track to the one of Kaiser that basically puts people of high intelligence and or of a certain income level as the ones to be chosen to go forth into space. What is the difference?
My plan is to sterilize all women younger let us say than 25 and older than let us say 40.  That would still leave a sizable group of women to rear the future generation but also should ramp down population levels along with the inevitable culling by the Overshoot Predator. 

And again, I am being painted as a Marxist when I never said I was one. I simply have railed against Capitalism. One does NOT follow the other. I admit I had left leaning tendencies when younger.  However, I have come to realize that all organized rule via hiearchy is bad.  So, I consider myself an Anarchist in political terms that would be nobody "ruling".  I mean we have rules and laws now that are punished and punished by death.  I am not advocating killing anyone rather preventing future births.  But the main point of contention is Kaiser and Cog etc. believe individual rights should supersede in all instances the common good.  I do not.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 25 Mar 2019, 10:40:49

Onlooker,

Yeah, you kinda stepped in it with the “sterilization” thing. I understand there are arguments for it but also against it. But it’s a hot topic button that’s bound to set off a certain group. Gotta learn to dance around land mines. But more importantly, you are leaping ahead in your solutions.

There is no doubt we need to get the population under control. And it’s not a one size fits all answer; African population issues are vastly different than Western first world issues are different than South American issues.

Just talking Western first world for simplicity folks will scream that it will kill the economy, and they are correct. Depopulation will kill the economy AS IT CURRENTLY EXISTS. Japan is struggling, the USA and EU are opening the borders because population growth rates are perceived as too low TO SUSTAIN THE CURRENT ECONOMIC MODEL.

So my thrust is to challenge the current economic model, if we can change that to allow lower birth rates everything will get better. Everything.

Here are two ideas that should not cause too much anxiety.

1 - Engage AI, maximize it. We fear not enough workers to do the jobs. Well then invent workers. But then tax them so that they support the aging population and tax base.
2 - Become more efficient, reduce uneccecary jobs. Go to a mall, any mall, and the stores are filled with vanity clothing. Just cut back on our clothing, our shoe purchases and we can eliminate many jobs. Then we won’t spend as much either. Then we will be better off financially.

The harder issue is that Western culture has been propagandized so that we have a North Korea like adoration of consumption and growth. Turning that around is going to take a lot of time and effort. We need to adopt the values of the Depression generation: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

There is a whole insane industry devoted to keeping us on the consumptive treadmill that requires constant growth. Something which is obviously impossible. The turn around on this matter must come from some leadership of high authority and repute. Someone must open the public debate in a mature and reasonable manner with well thought out concepts and a calm authoritative voice.

So far crickets.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 25 Mar 2019, 10:58:35

Thanks for you reasoned reply Newf.  I am not sure I am rushing into solutions with the Sterilization track.  I along with others are researching and witnessing the degradation and depletion of the Natural World in leaps and bounds. Phytoplankton are dying in large numbers, the Amazon, the Great Barrier Reef , the Arctic are all seeing fast even exponential changes for the worse.  Bees, insects and fish are dying in large numbers. And on and on.  This is the product of both our enormous population but also our non eco friendly technology and practices.

So, again both levels of population must be reduced quickly and Industrial Civilization must clean up its act which would necessarily involve Degrowth. 
Yes, the population issue is very tricky, I have heard though that in this case Mother Nature may be helping us as Male sperm count seems to be falling dramatically.   What I fear is that some are not realizing that we are making our Environment highly toxic with all the  synthetic chemicals and stuff we dispose into it.  That is bound to have health consequences that will leave our species quite vulnerable to infections, diseases etc.  As long as the entire planet refuses to face the dire predicament head on, all this is worthless musings.  Ibon, seems to be right, not until truly catastrophic consequences set in, will we take bold action. However, by then we may be experience  a fall of catastrophic levels of population and even worse of technlogy and modernity sending us back to at best Medieval standards of living.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 25 Mar 2019, 11:26:06

I have said many times that voluntary sterilization is the answer. Give them money, basic income for everyone who lets themselves sterilize. Money , money, money is the answer just for everything. It even keeps the negative eroei shale oil going. Basic income is inevitable in the future because AI takes most jobs anyway. Those who want to have a family need to get a job and provide for their family by themselves. Simple as that.
Btw most men in their prime time are incels( involuntary celibates) in todays society . They only get a chance when a woman hits a wall and is way out of her prime. If they decide to reproduce the offspring is doomed due to bad genes and old age of both parents.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 25 Mar 2019, 11:38:50

Yonnipun wrote:I have said many times that voluntary sterilization is the answer. Give them money, basic income for everyone who lets themselves sterilize. Money , money, money is the answer just for everything. It even keeps the negative eroei shale oil going. Basic income is inevitable in the future because AI takes most jobs anyway. Those who want to have a family need to get a job and provide for their family by themselves. Simple as that.
Btw most men in their prime time are incels( involuntary celibates) in todays society . They only get a chance when a woman hits a wall and is way out of her prime. If they decide to reproduce the offspring is doomed due to bad genes and old age of both parents.

Sounds good for the rich countries but what about the poor ones?
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 25 Mar 2019, 12:02:33

onlooker wrote:
Yonnipun wrote:I have said many times that voluntary sterilization is the answer. Give them money, basic income for everyone who lets themselves sterilize. Money , money, money is the answer just for everything. It even keeps the negative eroei shale oil going. Basic income is inevitable in the future because AI takes most jobs anyway. Those who want to have a family need to get a job and provide for their family by themselves. Simple as that.
Btw most men in their prime time are incels( involuntary celibates) in todays society . They only get a chance when a woman hits a wall and is way out of her prime. If they decide to reproduce the offspring is doomed due to bad genes and old age of both parents.

Sounds good for the rich countries but what about the poor ones?


I think something similar. Rich countries should also help out to establish a similar system there. Instead of just giving them food donations they should give them a little food and money if they let themselves sterilize. If you have a choice to starve on the street or get a little food and have some basic income then it should be an easy choice for them. Those people in poor countries have no pension system and they depend on their children when they get old. With basic income they do not have this problem anymore.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Cog » Mon 25 Mar 2019, 14:04:11

@Newfie I have suggested the same solution repeatedly. Admittedly, it is not one that is in vogue here. My solution is to do nothing at all. Nature and lack of resources will let us know when we have exceeded the limits of the planet to support us all. The planet is a neutral arbiter of our future and human decision making just mucks up the works. Now it could be that price alone, for rare and becoming rarer resources, will force a reaction of lower consumption and alternative energy. After all, if you can't afford it, you can't buy it. End of consumerism as you are desiring.

All other solutions I'm hearing here, rely on the overbearing and necessarily arbitrary judgment of humans. I trust the planet a lot more than humans to form that judgment.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 25 Mar 2019, 14:09:41

The poor countries are really screwed. But to some extent they are an andvance warning signal of where we are headed.

When it comes to how to help them I’ve got nothing, no ideas. They need to figure it out for themselves. If it more and more looks like they will simply propogate themselves to death.

I hear the arguments that a Western Civ life style promotes low birth rates. But then I think, the reason these poorest countries are so poor is they overpopulate, which destories resources. Yes, the West has exploited them. But when give their own freedom they haven’t, by and large, used it to reduce population and redistribute resources to attain a higher standard of living. For whatever reason they have failed. I don’t know more.

However, the though comes to me that the First World is NOT really very different from the third world. Circumstances have conspired so that we westerners have this, as we perceive it, much more lush life style. It maybe that is only through happenstance. That was pretty mcuh the thrust of Guns, Germs, and Steel and he makes a persuasive argument.

That being the case we are very likely looking to our future when we look at Haiti.
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