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The coming Civil War Pt. 1

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 11:18:50

I would add that the Internet is the great funnel of diversity. Anybody with access to the network can partake of as much or as little as they wish. There are insular communities here in Silicon Valley, clusters of religion and cultures and ethnicities. I have no doubt that there are also local bigots and jihadists networking and sharing as well. My point being that nobody with a network is mono anything, including YOU, Ibon, sitting on your volcano.

It seems to me that although Ibon's analysis was correct for a time, the times have changed. We are a generation into the network, and the changes keep coming. Our politics, our shopping, and our entertainment have all been extensively changed by the network. My siblings and myself are all over the country, but share and interact through social apps on the network.

Perhaps the things we see as constants are now variables, because of the network.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 12:19:19

KaiserJeep wrote:
We are a generation into the network, and the changes keep coming. Our politics, our shopping, and our entertainment have all been extensively changed by the network. My siblings and myself are all over the country, but share and interact through social apps on the network.



The network is an enabler, nothing more. It is an enabler of shit as much as an enabler of diversity. It is an enabler of bigotry, hatred and stupidity as much as it is an enabler of enlightenment.

It is an enabler of misinformation as much as an enabler in how to fix your washing machine.

A louder microphone with a greater reach then the spoken work or the printing press or the telephone. Otherwise it is the same old same old KJ. Nothing all that much has changed.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 12:24:24

In defense of diversity the world before the internet at a time way back in the 70's for example, an international phone call cost you a couple bucks a minute. The world was an exotic place back then, far more diverse.

The internet has been a great force in homogenization, not so much an enabler of diversity.

We are all connected but we are all becoming the same .

It is a giant conduit of mediocrity and a force that is creating a vast monoculture.

In some ways this is good. In some ways it sucks ass.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 16:33:43

A stronger role in government regulating society is almost a guarantee going forward when the need for stability snd security will demand it. In other words the consequences of human overshoot will demand it.

This is different from communism or fascism or authoritarianism which has always been ideoloigical based and therefore corrupt.

Ecological based management of society due to human overshoot is not avoidable. Once the understanding of this results in the decoupling from communist or socialist ideology we will actually find that the most conservative sectors of society will embrace this.

In China today the reformists still trying to demand democracy are viewed as radicals whereas the majority, the more conservative sector of the citizenry embraces the strong role of government. This is less about a legacy of communism and more about managing 1.5 billion people.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 17:40:05

Ibon wrote:
Ecological based management of society due to human overshoot is not avoidable.

While the need for such maybe unavoidable achieving something on those lines is by no means certain.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 18:03:21

vtsnowedin wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Ecological based management of society due to human overshoot is not avoidable.

While the need for such maybe unavoidable achieving something on those lines is by no means certain.


Of course not certain but if a country and its citizens are looking for a strategy that minimizes suffering and maximizes stability and security then it is pretty much unavoidable.

The alternatives are ugly.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 18:15:24

Ibon wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Ecological based management of society due to human overshoot is not avoidable.

While the need for such maybe unavoidable achieving something on those lines is by no means certain.


Of course not certain but if a country and its citizens are looking for a strategy that minimizes suffering and maximizes stability and security then it is pretty much unavoidable.

The alternatives are ugly.

It is convincing the majority or, the leadership at least ,that it is the best path forward,that this is the problem. You must first convince them that their long held point of view is wrong and it is not just the oppositions actions that are causing the problems they face.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 18:21:14

vtsnowedin wrote:
Ibon wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Ecological based management of society due to human overshoot is not avoidable.

While the need for such maybe unavoidable achieving something on those lines is by no means certain.


Of course not certain but if a country and its citizens are looking for a strategy that minimizes suffering and maximizes stability and security then it is pretty much unavoidable.

The alternatives are ugly.

It is convincing the majority or, the leadership at least ,that it is the best path forward,that this is the problem. You must first convince them that their long held point of view is wrong and it is not just the oppositions actions that are causing the problems they face.


I think it is impossible to convince any fixed culture that is resistant to change. What does the convincing are the consequences themselves. Any attempts of convincing before the consequences will be construed as ideological. Therefore there is no convincing beforehand possible. At least not until 30 seconds before midnight!
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 18:27:43

More likely an hour after the next dawn.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 11 Mar 2019, 08:06:56

Ibon,

I think you have a very skewed vision of diversity in the big cities. You paint a kind of utopia where every one gets along. That may be what you are seeing in your children but they are not the folks I’m talking about. The various rival gangs should alert you to that. That there are pop up mobs which mug people and stores shows the lack of cohesion. The dialect differences make simple communication difficult. There are strong conservative religious groups, and they can carry very strong race/color prejudice. Then there a simple experiential differences; huge swaths of folks are functionally illiterate, they won’t mix well with others because simply because the are not accessible by writing, influencing them requires face to face contact. One of my kids is a corrections officer, and pretty good with the inmates. He has an understanding of their ways. He will leave immediatly if he is in a store and a gang banger comes in who is in foreign turf. He’s afraid a local banger will come in and bad things ensue.

I’m not denying what you see in your world, just that there is a different area of the world.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 11 Mar 2019, 10:54:28

Newfie wrote:Ibon,

I think you have a very skewed vision of diversity in the big cities. You paint a kind of utopia where every one gets along. That may be what you are seeing in your children but they are not the folks I’m talking about. The various rival gangs should alert you to that. That there are pop up mobs which mug people and stores shows the lack of cohesion. The dialect differences make simple communication difficult. There are strong conservative religious groups, and they can carry very strong race/color prejudice. Then there a simple experiential differences; huge swaths of folks are functionally illiterate, they won’t mix well with others because simply because the are not accessible by writing, influencing them requires face to face contact. One of my kids is a corrections officer, and pretty good with the inmates. He has an understanding of their ways. He will leave immediatly if he is in a store and a gang banger comes in who is in foreign turf. He’s afraid a local banger will come in and bad things ensue.

I’m not denying what you see in your world, just that there is a different area of the world.


My experience is Seattle where my kids went to middle and high school. My daughters are also cultural hybrids and so they naturally gravitated toward others who were similar.

The news is all about the shootings and disharmony. For every one shot dead there are 10,000 acts of kindness and cooperation. This is what is SKEWED. Especially if you are in law enforcement.

Bad shit gets in the news. Good stuff never gets reported.

Think about it. About how overwhelmingly safe our cities are day to day as millions of humans move about and live their daily lives.... So few killed. So few maimed. So few gang shootings. Of course the USA has more than most countries. But relative to the peace among us these events are still miraculously rare.

Compared to historical times down right utopian :)
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 11 Mar 2019, 16:56:38

And those bad old times may well return.

I’m not saying every part of the cities are like that, but there are sufficient areas like it to be troublesome. And within those districts the murder rates are pretty high. They are often reported as “drug deal gone bad” but that’s just a tag. Maybe it’s selling drugs in the wrong corner.

We have enough riots to demonstrate the differences.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 15 Mar 2019, 01:02:47

What civil war? How are we going to divide up the sides?

Rural versus Cities? Cities always win until there is no more food.

Whites against non-whites? They're already outnumbered.

Cultured versus non-cultured? Educated versus non-educated?

Rich versus poor? We already have a winner there!

Lots of skirmishes ahead, but outright civil war needs a clearly demarcated them versus us.

Cog in San Jose, surrounded by Liberals doesn't count. The liberals will leave him alone.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 15 Mar 2019, 09:33:15

jedrider wrote:What civil war? How are we going to divide up the sides?

Thems with guns vs. thems without
.
Rural versus Cities? Cities always win until there is no more food.

Which will take about a week.
Whites against non-whites? They're already outnumbered.

Wrong. Non Hispanic whites are the majority in 46 states. Hawaii, California, New Mexico, and Texas are the exceptions. It will change in the future but it takes eighteen years for anchor babies to become legal voters.
Cultured versus non-cultured? Educated versus non-educated?

Rich versus poor? We already have a winner there!

Lots of skirmishes ahead, but outright civil war needs a clearly demarcated them versus us.

Hungry vs. well fed usually works.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Cog » Fri 15 Mar 2019, 11:17:56

Cog doesn't live in California, nor has any intention of ever visiting it. I tend to hang around those "bitter clingers of guns and religion" types that Obama was upset about. My tribe is different than jedirider's tribe, of that I am certain.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 15 Mar 2019, 13:38:27

You mean this type of 'white rage':

GOP voters spout racist conspiracies after Trump-loving candidate loses: ‘They’re coming — they have names like Vasquez’
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/03/gop-voters-spout-racist-conspiracies-trump-loving-candidate-loses-theyre-coming-names-like-vasquez/?utm_source=push_notifications

This works until you discover that they pick your vegetables, pack your environmentally destructive beef and clean your homes (oops, those damn more well-off liberals hiring foreign workers so they can live a 'middle class' lifestyle).

Well, class war is the only possible 'war' we can really have.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 15 Mar 2019, 13:47:47

jedrider wrote:What civil war? How are we going to divide up the sides?

Rural versus Cities? Cities always win until there is no more food.

Whites against non-whites? They're already outnumbered.

Cultured versus non-cultured? Educated versus non-educated?

Rich versus poor? We already have a winner there!

Lots of skirmishes ahead, but outright civil war needs a clearly demarcated them versus us.

Cog in San Jose, surrounded by Liberals doesn't count. The liberals will leave him alone.


For the most part I agree with this. Local outbreaks. Nothing National.

The last sentence I strongly disagree with, Cog in my old neighborhood would be toast in any kind of disturbance. The hate is thick there. There exists among some a skewed sense of entitlement and deep injustice collecting. Folks working themselves into a frenzy. The PC police are the new Gestapo.

And not just R vs D. In the surrounding neighborhoods there is all kinds of ethnic splintering. Sure we superficially get along all day, but my daughters GF got locked down because her BF was a slightly lighter shade than she was.

If there is a more ethnically diverse large country it’s probably India. And they have their share of religious riots and killings. A few years ago the cut out a few cars from a train and immolated all the people aboard. Religion.

The USA cities are balkanizing
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 15 Mar 2019, 16:51:53

Newfie wrote:The USA cities are balkanizing


Between the 'Haves' and the 'Have Nots'.

Yes, I vote for Class Warfare.

[Interesting as this can only go in one direction, between the 'Haves' and 'Have Nots'. And, yes, some immigrant groups will be picked on as a substitute for the real thing, for a while, that is.]
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 15 Mar 2019, 18:04:06

But remember “the grass is always greener.” It may devolve into local actions, one group envious of the other groups slop.

I don’t much see them going after the elites. Easier targets are closer at hand.

I guess it’s evident I don’t much see humanity as a Nobel creature.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 15 Mar 2019, 19:09:27

It will likely not be a civil war but neighbor attacking neighbor as a few days' worth of food, fuel, medicine, and even ammo in various towns and cities dwindle when JIT systems and extensive supply chains fall apart.
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