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Global Warming / Climate Change is Hoax pt 10

Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 11:58:50

Cog wrote:
clif wrote:
by rockdoc123 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:00 pm
..........
Look dipshit
..........




Moderators, is this acceptable?


He provided considerable evidence that this is the case. Some of my best friends are dipshits and go on to live kick ass lives. Perhaps you should fill out a hurt feelings report because that is always taken seriously.


Cog,

This isn’t about hurt feelings, it’s about civil discourse. You can do it, it seems what you can’t do is to restrain yourself from fanning the flame.

I’m reminded of the comedian, (Randy White?) who when arrested said “I had the right the remain silent, I didn’t have the ability.”
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby jawagord » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 12:04:04

rockdoc123 wrote:
That is not how we got Relativity, QM and Plate Tectonics. It was other individuals who had a new theory. Your skeptics have no theory.

.....I can't comment directly on the evolution of the theory of relatively other than to state....is there anyone out there in the press calling someone a denier because they are questioning certain aspects of the theory? Are there scientists still looking into aspects of relativity? The answer is yes, just do a perusal of the literature. Are there scientists who feel uncomfortable about questioning aspects of Einsteins theory? The answer is no as far as I can tell. Completely different.


Rocdoc you are too well versed in the subject of geology for this group. And I’m sure you know more about these other disciplines than most? Relativity is not my subject either but when holes appear it’s still being challenged, as good science should be, on the other hand doomsday cults require us to look away and unquestioningly drink the koolaid. Can you imagine what 100 years of challenge will do to Climate Science theory!

AP) -- For more than a century, everyone from physicists to the Nazi Party - which encouraged the publication of the tract "One Hundred Authors Against Einstein" - has tried to find cracks in his work.

On Thursday, the world's biggest physics lab unveiled a shocking finding: that one type of subatomic particle was clocked going faster than the speed of light. If true - a big if, even the scientists there concede - it could undercut Einstein's theories. Physicist Michio Kaku of City College of New York called it "the biggest challenge to relativity in 100 years."

Antonio Ereditato, who participated in the European experiment as head of the Albert Einstein Center for Fundamental Physics in Bern, knows what is at stake. After his team fielded two hours of technical questions, some a bit sharp, from a skeptical audience Friday, Ereditato had a beer in hand and was asked about the idea that his work was challenging the secular saint of modern physics. "Yes, that's why I'm concerned," he said with a laugh.

Harvard University science historian Peter Galison said Einstein's relativity theories have been challenged and "pushed on as hard as any theory in the history of physical sciences ever" and they have survived.



Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2011-09-einstein-venture.html#jCp
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 12:06:44

Ibon wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:All the more reason to go back to the position I stated on page two of this thread.

But as to the question "Has global warming peaked?" I would not agree with that unless the worlds glaciers stopped retreading and began to gain total mass for a few years. They are an unbiased source untroubled by politics and not in need of a funding source or need to publish.


There is more to this wise observation than how it reflects the truth of global warming. It is the base line one should use in all of the greater repercussions human overshoot is having on our mother earth.

There are consequences indisputable regardless of how much humans squirm to rationalize some particular bias.

Funny how reality always wins!


Exactly, the in onto ertable (incontrovertible), tangible evidence exists. It’s outside, particularly in the North. On merely needs to be open to it.
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 12:08:38

Ibon wrote:Funny how reality always wins!

Could you imagine a situation, when reality have lost?
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 14:37:15

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Ibon wrote:Funny how reality always wins!

Could you imagine a situation, when reality have lost?

The human mind is a funny thing, it can deny reality. This capability could have had certain evolutionary advantages. Our perception afterall, constitutes alot of "our" reality. But, though we may ignore reality we cannot ignore its consequences. Wanting to believe the "truth" of something can be a very strong force.
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 14:52:33

rockdoc123 wrote:Image

I tracked down the source of that graph.
http://www.skyfall.fr/wp-content/2016/0 ... _2016-.pdf

That is some Scientific Paper:
more than 1350 peer-reviewed papers
which express reservations about dangerous anthropogenic CO2
warming and/or insist on the natural variability of climate ... Bose-Einstein population factor ... Earth (0.04% of
CO2), the Moon (no atmosphere), Venus (96% of CO2), Mars, Titan (a
moon of Saturn), and Triton (a moon of Neptune). ... ocean heat content down to abyssal depths ... tide gauge data ... continuous increase of the Antarctic sea ice area/extent anomaly ... temperature measured by satellite in the low
stratosphere ... change of earth albedo related to aerosols emitted by volcanic eruptions ... CO2 seasonal oscillations measured in 2013 compared to early measurements of 1969 at La Jolla, California ... benefit for mankind related to the increase of plant feeding and crops yields by enhanced CO2 photosynthes

... and much more.
All in 5 pages!
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 17:27:44

I tracked down the source of that graph.
http://www.skyfall.fr/wp-content/2016/0 ... _2016-.pdf

That is some Scientific Paper:


The information comes from that paper in figure 1 but the actual graph posted appeared as Figure 7 in:

Scafetta, N, et al, 2017. Natural climate variability, part 2: Interpretation of the post 2000 temperature standstill. Int Jour of Heat and Tech, V35, pp S18-S26. DOI: 10.18280/ijht.35Sp0103

I used that graph as it was immediately handy but perhaps a better one showing the range was made by Nic Lewis (albeit more out of date than Scafetta's as it only includes up to 2013 studies)

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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 18:19:41

Rockdock123,

You are following the deniers MO to a tee.

You always cast doubt upon other folks.
You never come up with a credible alternative theory.
Never state what your predictions are, never go out on a limb.

You know I once met a girl who insisted she was a Virgin, demanded we proved her wrong, show who the Daddy was, said test results were wrong, and besides Jesus was of a Virgin birth. But month by month her belly grew.

So what do you think of the assertion that the Arctic ice is melting, the glaciers retreating?
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby clif » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 18:49:55

by jawagord » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:04 pm

rockdoc123 wrote:

That is not how we got Relativity, QM and Plate Tectonics. It was other individuals who had a new theory. Your skeptics have no theory.


.....I can't comment directly on the evolution of the theory of relatively other than to state....is there anyone out there in the press calling someone a denier because they are questioning certain aspects of the theory? Are there scientists still looking into aspects of relativity? The answer is yes, just do a perusal of the literature. Are there scientists who feel uncomfortable about questioning aspects of Einsteins theory? The answer is no as far as I can tell. Completely different.



Rocdoc you are too well versed in the subject of geology for this group. And I’m sure you know more about these other disciplines than most? Relativity is not my subject either but when holes appear it’s still being challenged, as good science should be, on the other hand doomsday cults require us to look away and unquestioningly drink the koolaid. Can you imagine what 100 years of challenge will do to Climate Science theory!

AP) -- For more than a century, everyone from physicists to the Nazi Party - which encouraged the publication of the tract "One Hundred Authors Against Einstein" - has tried to find cracks in his work.

On Thursday, the world's biggest physics lab unveiled a shocking finding: that one type of subatomic particle was clocked going faster than the speed of light. If true - a big if, even the scientists there concede - it could undercut Einstein's theories. Physicist Michio Kaku of City College of New York called it "the biggest challenge to relativity in 100 years."

Antonio Ereditato, who participated in the European experiment as head of the Albert Einstein Center for Fundamental Physics in Bern, knows what is at stake. After his team fielded two hours of technical questions, some a bit sharp, from a skeptical audience Friday, Ereditato had a beer in hand and was asked about the idea that his work was challenging the secular saint of modern physics. "Yes, that's why I'm concerned," he said with a laugh.

Harvard University science historian Peter Galison said Einstein's relativity theories have been challenged and "pushed on as hard as any theory in the history of physical sciences ever" and they have survived.


Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2011-09-einstein-venture.html#jCp


ya know there used to be a radio personality call ed Paul harvey, who used a line;

The rest of the story.......

and here it is;

The supposed faster than speed of light neutrino experiment ...... did NOT prove Einstein's theory wrong at all.

Neutrinos not faster than light

ICARUS experiment contradicts controversial claim. Neutrinos obey nature's speed limit, according to new results from an Italian experiment. The finding, posted to the preprint server arXiv.org, contradicts a rival claim that neutrinos could travel faster than the speed of light.


And the people making the original claims admitted as such;

https://www.nature.com/news/neutrinos-n ... ht-1.10249

In 2011, the OPERA experiment mistakenly observed neutrinos appearing to travel faster than light. Even before the mistake was discovered, the result was considered anomalous because speeds higher than that of light in a vacuum are generally thought to violate special relativity, a cornerstone of the modern understanding of physics for over a century.

OPERA scientists announced the results of the experiment in September 2011 with the stated intent of promoting further inquiry and debate.<b> Later the team reported two flaws in their equipment set-up that had caused errors far outside their original confidence interval: a fiber optic cable attached improperly, which caused the apparently faster-than-light measurements, and a clock oscillator ticking too fast. </b>The errors were first confirmed by OPERA after a Science Insider report; accounting for these two sources of error eliminated the faster-than-light results.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-th ... no_anomaly

So the only thing actually factual about your post is;

Relativity is not my subject, neither does it seem to be climate science......

Hint when you post a link from 2011 to make some obscure point, make sure the actual science hasn't been updated since with better data even if that data says the original claim was incorrect because of less than rigorous science .....
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 19:38:15

You always cast doubt upon other folks.
You never come up with a credible alternative theory.
Never state what your predictions are, never go out on a limb.


OK. How many times do I have to explain to you how science advances?
Please find for me somewhere where it states that in order to critique some aspect of science you must have an alternative theory? It doesn’t exist because if such a requirement existed science would stand still. Have you ever bothered to read a Discussion published in any scientific journal? The rules generally around such Discussions are you can only address what was put forward in the paper your Discussion refers to, you can critique, make corrections, argue against the math or introduce other references but one thing you cannot do is offer up an alternative theory. Science advances in this manner.

You need to get over this misunderstanding. Not everything in life is immediately explainable, that is why research continues.

So what do you think of the assertion that the Arctic ice is melting, the glaciers retreating?


Exactly what does that have to do with anything? The Arctic ice was melting a long, long time before man could have had any influence, same with glaciers. And you are attempting to correlate this with what? Global temperature? CO2? Correlation doesn’t mean causation.
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 20:46:26

You could have just said “I don’t know, we will just have to wait and see what happens. Science is totally ineffective as a practical planning tool.

And as to the Arctic ice melting before human intervention please provide proof.

You got ice extent and volume data back to 1850 or so?

And yes correlation does not mean causation, but you need it to prove your point. As you are disputing the claim it’s up to you to show an alternative theory consistent with observations.

Which takes me back to my earlier question to you:

1- Do you think Earth is warming, stable, or cooling. So you think it is warming. Good, one answer.
2-What is your hypothesis to substantiate the above. In less than a thousand words please.
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 21:55:56

And as to the Arctic ice melting before human intervention please provide proof.


Bengtsson, L, 2004. The early twentieth-century warming it the Arctic – a possible mechanism. Journal of Climate, https://doi.org/10.1175/1520-0442(2004)017<4045:TETWIT>2.0.CO;2

The huge warming of the Arctic that started in the early 1920s and lasted for almost two decades is one of the most spectacular climate events of the twentieth century. During the peak period 1930–40, the annually averaged temperature anomaly for the area 60°–90°N amounted to some 1.7°C. Whether this event is an example of an internal climate mode or is externally forced, such as by enhanced solar effects, is presently under debate. This study suggests that natural variability is a likely cause, with reduced sea ice cover being crucial for the warming. A robust sea ice–air temperature relationship was demonstrated by a set of four simulations with the atmospheric ECHAM model forced with observed SST and sea ice concentrations. An analysis of the spatial characteristics of the observed early twentieth-century surface air temperature anomaly revealed that it was associated with similar sea ice variations. Further investigation of the variability of Arctic surface temperature and sea ice cover was performed by analyzing data from a coupled ocean–atmosphere model. By analyzing climate anomalies in the model that are similar to those that occurred in the early twentieth century, it was found that the simulated temperature increase in the Arctic was related to enhanced wind-driven oceanic inflow into the Barents Sea with an associated sea ice retreat. The magnitude of the inflow is linked to the strength of westerlies into the Barents Sea. This study proposes a mechanism sustaining the enhanced westerly winds by a cyclonic atmospheric circulation in the Barents Sea region created by a strong surface heat flux over the ice-free areas. Observational data suggest a similar series of events during the early twentieth-century Arctic warming, including increasing westerly winds between Spitsbergen and Norway, reduced sea ice, and enhanced cyclonic circulation over the Barents Sea. At the same time, the North Atlantic Oscillation was weakening.


Koerner, R.M., Ice core evidence for extensive melting of the Greenland ice sheet in the last interglacial. Science, V 244, pp 964-968. DOI: 10.1126/science.244.4907.964

[quote]Evidence from ice at the bottom of ice cores from the Canadian Arctic Islands and Camp Century and Dye-3 in Greenland suggests that the Greenland ice sheet melted extensively or completely during the last interglacial period more than 100 ka (thousand years ago), in contrast to earlier interpretations. The presence of dirt particles in the basal ice has previously been thought to indicate that the base of the ice sheets had melted and that the evidence for the time of original growth of these ice masses had been destroyed. However, the particles most likely blew onto the ice when the dimensions of the ice caps and ice sheets were much smaller. Ice texture, gas content, and other evidence also suggest that the basal ice at each drill site is superimposed ice, a type of ice typical of the early growth stages of an ice cap or ice sheet. If the present-day ice masses began their growth during the last interglacial, the ice sheet from the earlier (Illinoian) glacial period must have competely or largely melted during the early part of the same interglacial period. If such melting did occur, the 6-meter higher-than-present sea level during the Sangamon cannot be attributed to disintegration of the West Antarctic ice sheet, as has been suggested.[/quote]


And yes correlation does not mean causation, but you need it to prove your point. As you are disputing the claim it’s up to you to show an alternative theory consistent with observations.


As I said, there is no onus to show an alternative theory consistent with observations....that is not the way science works. Finding holes in theories via testing against observations etc is one of the most important pieces of scientific research. Pointing out flaws in a theory does not need validation by supplying an alternative theory. And what "claim" am I disputing? You made no claim whatsoever. And what "point" did I supposedly make? What I said was correlation does not mean causation...I don't think that needs proving does it?
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby dissident » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 22:51:41

Keith_McClary wrote:
rockdoc123 wrote:
That is how science works. Someone proposes a theory, others pick it apart and point out the shortcomings and the individual who proposed the original theory can choose to adjust his theory, abandon it and/or create a new one.

That is not how we got Relativity, QM and Plate Tectonics. It was other individuals who had a new theory. Your skeptics have no theory.


They have no observations either. All they have is FUD and are paid to spread it. This includes the same clowns that were hired by the tobacco industry to deny any cancer link.
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 09 Mar 2019, 23:42:58

Sorry if we sound skeptical Rockdoc but we have valid reasons to be so. https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/f ... stry-memos

Decades of misinformation and deception, and much of it from your former employers, the Fossil fuel industry
And we also, cannot help bringing up the pesky real world events happening now that increasingly point to the fact thst we are on the cusp of major climate change. The biggest one being an ice free Arctic. Something that the Science is clear has not been a regular feature of Earth since millions of years back.
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 01:00:25

They have no observations either. All they have is FUD and are paid to spread it. This includes the same clowns that were hired by the tobacco industry to deny any cancer link


apparently, you are living in a bubble. Who is being paid here? What is your evidence of that? And why in anyone's imagination would a major oil company pay anyone to try and convince someone like you? Oh ....lets spend millions of dollars to get dissident to agree with us...if that doesn't sound stupid to you then you really have a problem.

It is very clear from your posts that you are living in an environment of information decimation that is about 10 years old. Perhaps you need to update your understanding of the issues? :roll:
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby clif » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 02:17:19

For nearly three decades, many of the world's largest fossil fuel companies have knowingly worked to deceive the public about the realities and risks of climate change.

Their deceptive tactics are now highlighted in this set of seven "deception dossiers"—collections of internal company and trade association documents that have either been leaked to the public, come to light through lawsuits, or been disclosed through Freedom of Information (FOIA) requests.

Each collection provides an illuminating inside look at this coordinated campaign of deception, an effort underwritten by ExxonMobil, Chevron, ConocoPhillips, BP, Shell, Peabody Energy, and other members of the fossil fuel industry.

UPDATE (July 9, 2015): As this report went to press, a newly discovered email from a former Exxon employee revealed that the company was already factoring climate change into decisions about new fossil fuel extraction as early as 1981.


https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/fi ... ssiers.pdf

Obviously somebody has been paying all these people all those years to spread dis-information .....
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby clif » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 02:26:11

Who is being paid here? What is your evidence of that?


Glad you asked;

The documents, obtained through a FOIA request by Greenpeace and the Climate Investigations Center, show that Wei-Hock (“Willie”) Soon received more than $1.2 million in research funding between 2001 and 2012 from fossil fuel interests including ExxonMobil, the American Petroleum Institute (API), the Charles Koch Foundation, and Southern Company, a large electric utility in Atlanta that generates most of its power from coal. Soon, whose background is not in climate science but rather in aerospace engineering, has long used his affiliation with the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics to add credence to his climate-related research. Soon has written about many aspects of climate change but is best known for his work on the role of solar variability, research that has broadly overstated the role the sun plays in climate change and has been largely discredited by his scientific peers (see, for example, Mooney 2015; Schmidt 2015; Schmidt 2005; Sanchez 2003).

In response to the Soon revelations, the Smithsonian Institution has launched an investigation into its disclosure and funding policies. As the contracts, proposals, reports, letters, and other documents reveal, Soon relied exclusively on grants from the fossil fuel industry for his entire salary and research budget (Gillis and Schwartz 2015; Smithsonian 2015). Particularly troubling, the Smithsonian Institution entered into funding agreements that gave Soon’s funders the right to review his scientific studies before they were published. The documents also show that the Smithsonian agreed not to disclose the funding arrangement without the funder’s permission (Smithsonian 2008). Soon reported his research articles and even his congressional testimony to his corporate underwriters as “deliverables” (McNeil 2011; Soon 2011).


And yet deniers every so often try to blame solar variability, even though it has been discredited....

That was the reason his "research" was funded in the first place

To have fake discredited talking points for deniers to try to derail any HONEST discussions, with his discredited junk science.
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby clif » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 02:36:28

And why in anyone's imagination would a major oil company pay anyone to try and convince someone like you?


Interesting question ...

The API’s Global Climate Science Communications Team consisted of representatives from the fossil fuel industry, trade associations, and public relations firms. At the time, the team’s attention was focused on derailing the Kyoto Proto-col—the international agreement committing participating countries to binding emissions reductions—that had been adopted by the Parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change in December 1997. In response to this development, and to stave off approval of the treaty by the U.S. Senate and other climate action in the United States, the API team’s 1998 memo mapped out a multifaceted deception strategy for the fossil fuel industry that continues to this day—outlining plans to reach the media, the public, and policy makers with a message emphasizing “uncertainties” in climate science. According to the memo (Figure 4, p. 10), “victory” would be achieved for the campaign when “average citizens” and the media were convinced of “uncertainties” in climate science despite overwhelming evidence of the impact of human-caused global warming and nearly unanimous agreement about it in the scientific community.

The fossil fuel companies, mimicking the tobacco companies, adopted a strategy that sought to “manufacture uncertainty” about global warming even in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence that it is human-caused, is accelerating at an alarming rate, and poses myriad public health and environmental dangers. The fossil fuel industry not only took a page from the tobacco playbook in its efforts to defeat action on climate change, it even drew upon a number of the key players who had contributed to the tobacco industry’s deception campaign and a remarkably similar network of public relations firms and nonprofit “front groups,” some of whom continue to actively sow disinforma-tion about global warming today (Oreskes and Conway 2010; Hoggan and Littlemore 2009).


Yes victory muddy the waters so most people aren't quite sure, then the politicians don't have to actually address the currently happening problem because they can claim no "real consensus" ..... because the very same corporations who fund their campaigns fund denier science to hand them the cudgel to stop any meaningful changes that might impact the bottom line or oil and coal corps and their associated industries.
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby clif » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 02:39:14

Oh ....lets spend millions of dollars



And they did;

The fossil fuel companies knew that a disinformation cam-paign of the scope they intended would not be cheap. The Global Climate Science Communications Team estimated the budget for the program at $5,900,000, which included a national media program and national outreach as well as a data center (Walker 1998). The roadmap identified an array of fossil fuel industry trade associations and front groups, fossil fuel companies, and free-market think tanks to underwrite and execute the plan, including:• The American Petroleum Institute and its members• The Business Round Table and its members• The Edison Electric Institute and its members• The Independent Petroleum Association of America and its members• The National Mining Association and its members• The American Legislative Exchange Council• Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow • The Competitive Enterprise Institute• Frontiers of Freedom• The Marshall Institute


Damn man, it's almost like you already read the article .........
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Re: Has Global Warming Peaked?

Unread postby clif » Sun 10 Mar 2019, 02:41:45

t is very clear from your posts that you are living in an environment of information decimation that is about 10 years old.


Really

Recent filings with the California secretary of state show that WSPA nearly doubled its lobbying budget in 2014—the year of Reheis-Boyd’s presentation—to nearly $8.9 million. Equally revealing, the vast majority of this spending—some $7.2 million—was reported under a catchall “other” category that requires no detailed disclosure about how the money was spent. The leaked presentation slide strongly suggests where much of this money went: to create and promote astroturf groups


2019-2014=5

and here is a link from as recent as 2018

https://www.desmogblog.com/western-stat ... ssociation

2019-2018=1

and a second one;

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/6 ... ssociation

2019-2018=1


Don't do teh maths much ... eh?
Last edited by clif on Sun 10 Mar 2019, 02:58:29, edited 1 time in total.
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